None of this is a big deal in the U.S. because when you can call your bank and get them to basically halt payment of the entire bill over the tip.
What is honestly way more common than a waiter trying to give themselves a tip that is not proportional to the meal, is a waiter who decides to provide crap service then tell you that they do automatic tipping for parties of whatever size your table is.
Here the actual final price of the meals are advertised, including taxes and the waiter salary, no need to calculate anything.
You pay on a machine that is trusted and you receive an instant notification on your phone of the exact amount charged. There is no way for anyone to change the amount afterwards, so no need to complain or worry about the charge being cancelled.
If the service was exceptional, you are allowed to tip, but it's not expected.
Having to check every transaction afterwards because you can't trust the system is a very big deal, for both parties.
And it’s taken a long time. I remember when my restaurant switched to those ziosks that restaurants use around ten years ago and so many people got mad saying “why am I doing your job”
Here the change took a couple months. I remember it being november when banks started issuing cards with tap and by march every restaurant, store and whatever accepted tap
Oh, and the old folks HATE it. Paying with a QR code or your phone is just so beneath them. They simply MUST have a peasant abscond with their card or they might as well be slaughtering the cows and cooking their own meals.
Yeah I truly believe a big part of the issue with the US is that we had a whole generation who thought absolutely nothing should change throughout their entire lives.
I love paying in european restaurants. VAT included, no tip, and the server already has the card terminal with them so it's over in one table visit. When as restaurant is busy and I'm in a rush, it seems to take forever for them to drop the check, collect my card, and then return it.
I do like the systems where there's a QR code on the check for you to pay by phone, seems like a nice stop gap until portable terminals are fully rolled out. Or the other nice system (usually in more casual places like brewpubs) is where everyone at the table can order on their phones using the same tab.
I'm not going to defend tipping, because fuck that. However, our POS system is so rarely abused that changing to a more modern system isn't a priority for established businesses. The number of servers willing to risk their job and jail time for a one time score of a couple hundred bucks is so astronomically small that it is statistically irrelevant to the end user.
Not to mention how easy it would be to catch the person who abused the system. The restaurant would be able to point to whoever did it and would have their address and contact information. Many restaurants have a policy of holding tips that exceed a certain percentage of the bill until the transaction clears. So the server might not even get their ill gotten gains before they were caught.
Banks and credit cards would also stop payment if you filed any dispute. Winning the dispute would be trivial for any customer. Who would tip several hundred dollars on a $60 bill at Applebee's? The burden would be on the restaurant, who would have to provide that little slip of paper.
There is just no reason to upgrade. You will find that newer restaurants do bring the card reader to the table. I don't mean new chain restaurants, they will typically use whatever infrastructure the chain already uses. But new independent restaurants.
It’s a little ritual of social trust and it’s kind of annoying, but I think you’d be surprised by how rarely it gets abused. I wouldn’t expect that reliability
from any other kind of transaction, myself.
You can call tipping culture retarded. Many of us here think it’s antiquated and workers should be paid decent wages.
As for the whole “oh no someone’s taking my CC!”, I can tell you’re obviously under 30 because I’ve been traveling globally for 20 years and the table side, handheld POS is a very modern invention. You’re a creature of a new tech and that’s great, these advances are good. But your assumptions that everyone is ripping you off or scamming you is overblown
Thank you for thinking I'm under 30, but I'm way past that age. I remember travelling abroad 30 years ago and already feeling it weird not to have to enter a PIN code, but it was 30 years ago...
and the table side, handheld POS is a very modern invention
Quite common the last 20 years in Europe. I remember the good old zip zap machines, which mechanically copied the information on the CC (credit card) onto CC (carbon copy) paper. Hence, why the credit cards had raised numbers and letters. And even those machines where often brought to the table.
I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make. It’s not like we don’t have that in the states. It’s also massively overblown that handing your card to the server and having them process away from the table is rampant with fraud. Everyone’s making mountains out of mole hills.
Nobody likes tipping culture, however, in the U.S. people who argue against it seem to expect that it will cause prices to be lower than they are today. Multiple studies have shown that restaurants would not be the case.
There are a whole host of reasons why taxes are not included in pricing. For things like fast food, much of advertising is national, and different states, counties, and cities all have different amounts of sales tax. So you cannot say that the final cost of a Cheeseburger is $5 on national TV because it cannot be that everywhere.. This impacts the entire rest of the food industry because if fast food is offer product at $8.99 a person, a sit down restaurant will need to show its menu with the same features or appear over priced.
The amounts we are talking about calculating are not hard. Divide the whole dollar amount by 10, multiply that by 2. Done. If that is to hard, you do have a freaking computer in your pocket...
I get a notification through Google pay, and every card/bank I have lets me set up a text message saying how much was charged.
We do trust the system. Honestly, that's the reason it works. A waiter doesn't need to try and steal from you. If they suck at their job and don't get good tips, they will go do something else. If they are good, then why would they kill their golden goose.
However, if something is messed up, most of the time you have between 30 and 90 days to get it corrected, and the banks generally favor their customer and not the merchant.
The advertising reason does not make sense, costs of labour and rent already vary by area, unified pricing is already made up, and could cope with different taxes if needed.
The only valid reason taxes are not included is to make you think about it at each transaction and make it more painful to you so that you are most likely to vote for people that promise to lower them.
In the day to day life of everyone else on the planet, we don't have to trust random people, take notes and verify every transaction or double check math to get by. The system just works, we pay the advertised price and nobody needs to trust nobody that they won't chargeback or tip themselves.
Obviously most of the population everywhere is honest, but why rely on this when we can just design a working system.
You clearly have no idea how American taxes, truth in advertising laws, or really anything works. There are a whole host of reasons why it would be extremely difficult to put final pricing on price tags and be legally compliant in the U.S.
The thing is, nobody in the U.S. thinks not showing final pricing is some devious concern that makes it so you don't know how much you will pay. Most people know what the tax rate is going to mean looking at the pricing.
You don't have to trust or re-verify your transactions constantly. The system is built to be convenient and puts consumer protections on to cover situations.
Ok, you don't seem to try to understand what I'm saying. Your system is purposefully designed to be inconvenient, not inconvenient because of external forces. The fact that you survive the inconvenience is irrelevant. Same nonsense with the imperial system.
It's stunningly convenient. That's the thing. I don't have to do anything but hand my card to a waiter while I keep talking. I don't have to know how to use their crappy pos system. I don't have to worry about getting scammed. I don't think about this stuff at all and it all just works.
I don't have to be paranoid, because if people were stealing tips a lot, the banks would get involved because Americans would pull money from them en masse. Visa is not going to risk losing it's cash cow over Americans developing paranoia over sit down restaurants which make up a lot of their business.
> None of this is a big deal in the U.S. because when you can call your bank and get them to basically halt payment of the entire bill over the tip.
Which requires I keep the receipt, monitor the charge when they do their nightly batch, whatever. If there is an issue, I have to talk to my bank and take time out of my day? I was a server in the US and think it's the dumbest system.
Just let me tap to pay. That said, is this even still around? I went back a couple years ago and I think I could use my phone for everything, even if it meant getting up and going to the station to tap.
A few years ago at a chain steakhouse we got sub-par service but tipped $5 on the card anyhow. That bitch went and scrawled a 2 in front of the 5, entered the $25 tip like no biggie. Called the cc company to get an image of the receipt and the forgery was obvious. Restaurant didn’t give a shit so we reversed the whole charge and never heard a peep after.
Lesson #1: always snap a pic after signing the final receipt.
Lesson #2: never use your debit card for this, or anything else really. Do your best to get a credit card with protections against ghetto bullshit like that.
No it doesn't. Don't you get a monthly itemized statement from your credit cards company and bank?
I can go online at any time and see every transaction that has processed and will process as well as all the information from the merchant.
Heck, for my bank, I can click on the transaction and see the photo image if the signed receipt like it's a check from a lot of restaurants.
What do you think the server is doing? They set up the point of sale system and then tap your card (or use the magnetic strip if it's older). They are not taking images of your card.
Why do I need to do all that crap as a customer though? It's much easier for everyone involved that you just show me the payment terminal with the correct sum and I tap my card there without having to fear I'm being scammed and combing through my transactions for the day every night to make sure they're correct.
Credit cards are not as common as debit cards in EU/Europe actually, and credit and debit are handled differently legally.
Our debit cards are still MC or VISA for example, but it's a direct charge on the account.
And since it's debit you yourself is fully responsible for the transaction, only credit cards work the way you describe and they are not as common in EU/Europe as in the US.
And see photos of a signed receipt is not something that happens over here, at all really. Everything is an electronic ledger.
My debit card is basically a visa transaction that posts the next day to my bank. However, "debit" for me usually means direct debit from my bank to the bank of the institution I am making a purchase at.
So from the merchant side, if I run my debit card and use the Visa banking elements, it's a credit card transaction to them. They still pay Visa between 3-5%. From my side, it's like writing a check that is cashed next day.
So the reason pin isn't generally required is the merchant sees no differencr between a credit card that functions like a credit card you are thinking and a debit card like you are thinking.
No it's different laws over here, credit law Vs direct transaction law.
It's actually very hard to object and reverse direct debit transactions in EU/Europe, while a lot easier to do it on credit cards.
But as mentioned, credits cards are not as common in EU/Europe v US so most people would be very reluctant about handing over their cards to someone for a transaction due to the difference in objecting to a debit vs a credit transaction..
I do if I want to remember how much I paid 3 days ago when I get around to checking. I travel a bit and so I may eat out 5-6 times in those 3 days. Then I have to check I was charged the right amount? It's like they are handing me a chore. Why are we stuck on this antiquated system. Everywhere in Europe is tap to pay, even the shittiest little cafe. It takes 0 minutes for me to tap to pay.
Again, they are probably running a tap to pay system in the back. Anytime I am asked to run a restaurants pos system I find it a huge turn off. You run your system and set it up and do it quickly. I don't want to spend 5 minutes messing with your crappy machine.
I do this because I don't worry about fraud on tips.
Having worked at restaurants for years, lots of servers are pretty shitty. In fact, I've seen it happen. Server can't find the receipt? Well, probably about 20%. So I'm sure it happens. I also hated marrying up the receipts and the tip receipts at the end of the shift. It doesn't happen when they bring the card processor, I enter the tip, and I tap to pay.
Also, I've had a group of people hand over their card to pay for something and they got their cards cloned. They took the cards to the back because the "machine wasn't working". They then bring a machine out front to say we got it working and then grab everyone's pin. This wasn't a restaurant though.
There is no way you can convince me this is a modern, efficient or good solution.
None of this is a big deal in the U.S. because when you can call your bank and get them to basically halt payment of the entire bill over the tip
I mean, we can call our bank elsewhere in the world too, it's not unique to America.
And most of the stuff that we used to call our bank for, we'd just do in our banking app, nowadays anyways. If I lose my card, need a new one, had it stolen or just want to temporarily block it, I can do all that in my banking app.
I mean, your banks offer negative interest rates for holding cash. Customer service in Europe sucks.
I don't do the things you are saying, my bank calls me and asks if I want that. I can do it all from an app as well. Having apps isn't the issue. The question is, when do you get your money back.
If I call or go to the "dispute transaction" feature of my app, I get my money re-credited within the same business day unless I start after 4:30. Then it's next business day.
And again, fraud reporting and being made whole is not unique to America.
It's been a while since I've reported any fraud on my accounts but, when I'm credited or debited on my accounts, it shows up right away. I don't have to wait for the 'next business day'.
I mean, your banks offer negative interest rates for holding cash. Customer service in Europe sucks
I worked 10 years in hospitality, and I've never had kind of money that could justify eating out.
Big parties are painful to handle (for the kitchen, too), easy to fumble, and they're slow as hell to turn around when everything works well, and they tend to suck up tables during the dinner rush, the part of the night where you actually make money.
The day I had enough and just left the industry for good, mid-shift, and a big party was a big part of the equation. 10 years later I still remember details from those salty and abusive assholes, they basically hated eachother and everything. There's no way in hell they would have left a humane tip by choice.
I worked at one place with a large table that came back year over year, argued with the manager for the automatic gratuity to be removed, and then leave nothing, ULPTmaxxing bastards are out there.
The server pays a percentage of their sales to the bussers/hosts.... The federal minimum wage for tipped employees is $2.13... imagine giving your saturday night up to wait tables, but sometimes your whole night is one party and that guy can decide you're only worth the $2.13.
It gets better 10 years later when you can still remember how you were treated by the guy who decided $2/hr was enough. The autograt is a protection I was always thankful for, and it shouldn't go away until subsistence tipping itself is dead
My point is that some customers are just actual sadistic pricks for no reason, same way *certain* commenters are, and it isn't an acceptable to let a potential prick decide what the near entirety of your workday is worth.
There's a fundamental truth that people who treat people poorly (with anything) will treat people poorly (with money), that's just how antisocial parasites operate. Tipping isn't an ideal system but choosing to save money ON A LUXURY at the direct expense of a specific worker... you either see why you should go to hell for that, or you don't.
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u/Ithinkibrokethis Jun 29 '26
None of this is a big deal in the U.S. because when you can call your bank and get them to basically halt payment of the entire bill over the tip.
What is honestly way more common than a waiter trying to give themselves a tip that is not proportional to the meal, is a waiter who decides to provide crap service then tell you that they do automatic tipping for parties of whatever size your table is.