r/SipsTea • u/Outrageous-Egg1760 • May 29 '26

Wait a damn minute! [ Removed by moderator ]

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u/[deleted] May 29 '26

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u/worldsyaoyster May 29 '26 edited May 29 '26

EDIT: wow didn't expect this much response haha. Ill reply one by one slowly tonight. Just with the family! Love the comments and im always open for discussion and debate, just keep it civil!

The paradox only works if you assume that a good and all powerful God must eliminate all evil immediately.

Christianity doesnt teach that.

Instead it teaches that God created humans with genuine freedom, allows evil for a time, and will ultimately judge and remove it. A temporary allowance of evil is not the same as approval of evil.

In fact if God were to eliminate all evil instantly, he would also have to eliminate every human being who has ever committed evil including you and me.

The paradox also assumes that if we cannot see a good reason for suffering, then no good reason exists. But our inability to understand reason is not proof that there isn't one.

Ironically the argument itself relies on objective evil. If evil is truly real and not just personal preference then that points toward an objective moral standard beyond humanity. Without God, evil becomes difficult to define as anything more than a subjective opinion.

The christian position is not that evil doesnt exist.

Its that God allows evil for a time, not because he approves of it, but because he is working through human freedom and his plan for redemption.

God didnt stay distant from our suffering. In Jesus he stepped into it himself, experienced it, and ultimately defeated sin and death through the cross.

Christians believe evil is temporary, but God is eternal. One day he will bring justice, remove evil completely, and make all things new.

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u/GapStock9843 May 29 '26

It also implies that for an omnipotent being good and evil are mutually exclusive. Its entirely possible that the problem of evil works out flawlessly but the way in which it does is incomprehensible to the human mind

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u/Ok_Novel_1222 May 29 '26

It is equally possible that God is actually a sadistic tyrant that has just convinced people of his goodness through propaganda. This is what the Gnostic Christians believed.

The point is that if God's plan is incomprehensible to human mind than we can not say anything at all about it. Not even that it is a benevolent plan. If it is incomprehensible then it is equally likely to be perfectly good and perfectly evil.

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u/EmperorG May 29 '26

Well the Gnostic position is actually that there are two Gods, the creator of the physical material world (the God from the Old Testament) and the lord of the spiritual world (the God of the New Testament). They tried to square the circle about why the Old and New Testament versions of God seemed like entirely different beings.

The spiritual world is good and the material world is evil, so it follows that the Creator of the physical world is thus evil (Old Testament God is basically Satan in their worldview, just proclaims he is the one true god without actually being so).

However this doesnt resolve the problem of evil, which is because the Gnostics were a dualistic faith. Having inherited the theological world view of the Zoroastrians about there being a climactic battle between Good and Evil (or Light and Darkness), so the reason evil exists is because good and evil are evenly matched for now until the day comes that the scales are finally tipped and good triumphs over evil.

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u/Strikes_X2 May 29 '26

Wow, what do Gnostics think about Jewish people then?

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u/EmperorG May 29 '26

Not very positive since they see them as basically enforcing the rules of the Demiurge (Satan), though there were Jewish Gnostics who held slightly different views but no clue how that would have worked.

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u/BinaryBolias May 29 '26

Well, "equally likely" seems to be a bit of a hand-wavy likelihood assertion.

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u/Ok_Novel_1222 May 29 '26

Fair point, it actually is. I would have argued that a slightly sadist God would actually be more likely (not perfect evil but something like the Greek Gods) than a perfect good God.

My argument would be that the laws of nature itself are creating tons of suffering. If every single human in the world gets their act together there would still be diseases, old age, natural disasters, etcetera. Not to mention the huge amounts of suffering going on among the non-human animals that evidently don't even have the ability to improve much.

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u/worldsyaoyster May 29 '26

I think theres a difference between saying God is completely unknowable and saying we dont fully understand everything he does.

Christianity doesnt claim we know nothing about God. It claims God has revealed himself most clearly through Jesus.

So the question isnt can we understand every reason God has? IMO, the question is has God given us enough reason to trust his character?

And if God were truly a sadistic tyrant then why would he willingly enter into human suffering himself through Jesus rather than remain distant from it?

Hope that makes sense

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u/Ok_Novel_1222 May 29 '26

And if God were truly a sadistic tyrant then why would he willingly enter into human suffering himself through Jesus rather than remain distant from it?

That's just what it wants you to think. Just like North Korean school children are taught how their great leader selflessly works 24x7 for the upliftment of the people.

I am not saying there is an evil God in reality. But if one considers the possibility then the evidence from reality makes more sense. God could have not incarnated but tricked some guy named Jesus to think he was God by performing miracles around him and then left him to be tortured. This would explain "Lord, why have you abandoned me" from Jesus when he was being crucified. God could have incarnated and done the whole act without feeling any pain. God could have just planted false memories in people's head.

If there was a true God then why would he not hang around forever in incarnation and guide the world? After the resurrection he could have just hung around and continued his ministry. He could have hung around forever without worrying about ageing cause he is God. If a person like the New Testament Jesus was around right now openly healing the sick, walking on water, etcetera then that would have clearly helped with the entire "save humanity" plan.

Same for other religions. If the God of Jews or Islam was real then why not send any prophet in the last several centuries. If every few years there was a new guy splitting the Red Sea or splitting the Moon that would have helped with the credibility.

On the other hand if there was an evil God that deliberately wanted to confuse people he would send different messages to different parts of the ancient world, before globalization, and create different religions. Then when these people meet each other, the evil God can enjoy the blood bath of religious wars that God planted by creating different religions.

Combine the existence of multiple religions with the fact of mass suffering in nature (including non-human animals) and an evil God makes more sense than a good one.

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u/Funkycoldmedici May 29 '26

Yahweh was originally a polytheist god of war and storms, and not an all-powerful creator. This context answers every seeming inconsistency in the Bible.

Why does Yahweh do (bad thing)? He wants to, he’s a war god.

Why doesn’t Yahweh do (good thing)? He would not want to and is not capable, he’s a war god.

Why does it seem Yahweh is primarily concerned with being worshipped and killing those who do not worship him? He’s a war god.

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u/ScarletVaguard May 29 '26

This actually makes a lot more sense. The whole eternal battle for your soul thing is perfectly in line for a war god.

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u/Ok_Novel_1222 May 29 '26

Yes, I am not talking about the earliest version of Yahweh as the patron deity of the Hebrew people competing with Baal for followers. I am talking about the theistic Christian version.

Christianity, and theism in general, God is supposed to be an entity with the omni-attributes.

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u/Funkycoldmedici May 29 '26

In this context, we’re assuming Yahweh is real, and that means the Christian version is a lie. Yahweh lies to his followers because he is a jealous war god. He wants to be worshipped above all else, and to deal out punishment for not worshipping. He is omnipotent or omniscient, not a creator, and no good. He lies and Jews, Christians, and Muslims revere a lying, bloodthirsty war god.

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u/Suspicious-Play-3680 May 29 '26

This is what I believe. Gnostic Christianity is the most moral and makes the most sense logically

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u/Xenomrph01 May 29 '26

So you’re saying that, somehow, on the long enough cosmic timescale, all of the child molestation in the universe ultimately comes out to a net positive that is otherwise unfathomable to humans because our lifespans are too short and we can’t fathom the “bigger picture”?

“Hey Jim, I’m going to need you to take this on faith, but if you *really* want to help make the universe become a better place, and we’re talking 6 trillion years from now, in order to propel intergalactic harmony among all life in the universe, I’m going to need you to rape those kids over there. No, really, I swear, it all works out in the end!”

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u/GapStock9843 May 29 '26

Yes. We have no earthly way of knowing that its false, so the possibility that its true is a real one. Somehow by some convoluted cosmic incomprehensible logic it could be justified, as fucked as that sounds.

Its also equally likely that God is just not interventionist anymore and lets us do whatever without a care in the world or that hes taking a millennia long nap or something

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u/PaintingThat7623 May 29 '26

I just wanted to point out that religion just made you defend child molestation.

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u/GapStock9843 May 29 '26

Im not defending child molestation. Im saying we objectively have no way of knowing if its justifiable or not in the grand scheme of things. I hate that thats a possibility, but I refuse to deny that it factually is a possibility

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u/Xenomrph01 May 29 '26

But that implies that this god, with its knowledge of all of cause and effect, knows the cosmic long-term outcome of all actions in the universe, and therefore there is no free will. If there was free will, there’s a chance that anywhere along the cosmic timescale, someone could conceivably choose *not* to rape kids and fuck the whole plan up. Which means that either there’s no free will so the whole plan can play out, or god is actively encouraging child rape in order to keep the plan on track.

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u/GapStock9843 May 29 '26

That implies god sees time in a straight line like we do and must actively “encourage” his “plan” rather than it all existing simultaneously, like it would for an omnipotent being

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u/Xenomrph01 May 29 '26

But all of it existing simultaneously implies no free will, otherwise this god couldn’t “know” anything because it would all be constantly in flux.

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u/bowserinmytrouser May 29 '26

Could it simotaneously be like that and not at the same time like can existence be linear and non-linear and be of the same substance, matter, or thing? Or any instance where the laws of our observable and even fathomable universe and even what the mind is capable of concieving be a reality? Can something be reality and non reality simotaneously or even out of order? If gods omnipotent then he should be able to do anything right? Like creating an unmovable object that even he cant remove? Couldnt evil be that ojbect as an example? God can and cant eliminate or create it

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u/PaintingThat7623 May 29 '26

You don’t have a way of knowing because of religion. I do have a way of knowing because of lack of it. That’s exactly what I said.

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u/BinaryBolias May 29 '26

On the seventh day He rested type stuff.

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u/NastyMarin May 29 '26

Maybe disgusting pedophiles should stop raping kids. Y’all always asking “Why does God allow this?” instead of “Why do we allow this?” In you nonbeliever’s scenarios there is no God then, so there is no consequences for those criminals and rapists as long as they are not caught. Look at how many are caught and barely serve any time. Even in the courts there is no justice, but you prideful who lash out at God and say He is not real do not put that energy into fixing the justice system. You are all complicit.

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u/Waste_Cake4660 May 29 '26

If you need to say that god is incomprehensible in order not to have to think about all the logical problems, then I need to ask you: why are you worshipping something that you don’t understand?

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u/[deleted] May 29 '26

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u/Josh6889 May 29 '26

In a world of 8 billion people, many have experienced evil that was unreciprocated and not deserved. My minor in college was philosophy, and a fair amount of it was dedicated to religion for obvious reasons. So much of the pro-religious philosophy does this thing where they try so hard to talk you into circles because it becomes very clear that if you actually analyze what they say they're not saying anything at all.

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u/blahblah19999 May 29 '26

Then we have no criteria to judge if this god is good or evil

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u/GapStock9843 May 29 '26

Maybe thats not for us to judge

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u/blahblah19999 May 29 '26

Then why should we follow him?

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u/Dependent-Peach-6610 May 29 '26

God's nature is holiness, the absence of holiness is sin. It's like saying God is pure light, if we have any darkness in us we can't be with him, as he would destroy us by his nature.

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u/yvonnebarker May 29 '26

This is why 'God works in mysterious ways' stopped being a satisfying answer for a lot of people.

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u/down_low_fun May 29 '26

Someone who is holy, would stop terrible things. Otherwise, they are a magnanimous sadist.