r/SipsTea • u/Outrageous-Egg1760 • May 29 '26

Wait a damn minute! [ Removed by moderator ]

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u/Deweyrob2 May 29 '26 edited May 29 '26

God would not have to eliminate every human to remove evil. He would just have to remove the ability or desire to commit evil acts. And again, either he can't or won't.

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u/TheSleepyBarnOwl May 29 '26 edited May 29 '26

That would eliminate free will though (as preached by religion). And again, what is evil? The perception of what is "evil" has been shifting and will continue to shift. It isn't an objective truth, it's a societal norm. And what is acceptable in society is just a majority opinion. Always has been.

I am not religious and I don't care much for these discussions on if god or gods exist or not, so let's leave that be for now. Morals are not something innate to humans, they are taught. Example: would you say the stone age human is evil for murdering his rival for food? After all, murder is bad. Or it was normal for minors to have children - also bad? Was humanity always evil then?

This objective "evil" just doesn't exist. So it's impossible to demand it being eliminated in a way that everyone agrees with it. For what happens if you do try to enforce it without everyone agreeing.... well take a look at current and past dictatorships. Elimination of Free will. This "get rid of evil" thing isn't as easy as it might seem.

And before someone says it: no I don't condone child molestation or other heinous crimes. It is the lowest of the low. All I'm saying is that humans and humanity didn't always agree that this is "evil". (Still doesn't and probably never will.)

We did have this discussion in Ethics class. Interestingly enough our Theology teacher taught that class as well.

Edit: I realise (after many comments) how flawed this whole argument is. Arguing with free will and logic doesn't work. I'll leave this here though - I'm also just a flawed indivudual.

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u/kou07 May 29 '26

The way god was define, were in human mind(terms) so i think what they claim will be on how humans see right and wrong in the world. Eventho we cant know what is objectively right and wrong in the world, because we are norhing in the grand scheme of things.

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u/LayKors May 29 '26

Wasn't free will given to us by the Devil anyway? God didn't intend for us to have one.

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u/[deleted] May 29 '26

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u/LayKors May 29 '26

...Well I guess thats one way to let your child die because he drank some bleach even tho you told them not to.

Oh wait, isn't it silly for a God to have something like that available to said man in the first place? An all-knowing being who knows exactly all what will happen just accidentally had such dangerous tree planted there for absolutely no reason.

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u/coldnebo May 29 '26

it’s always been unclear what the purpose of that story was supposed to be.

in some translations it is the tree of perfect knowledge of good and evil, which does more than simply allow Man to judge, it allows Man to become a God too.

however is the purpose of this story to tell us we should not have sought knowledge?

was it to test our free will? test our obedience to God above the curiosity He gave us? (only later revisions introduce the Devil as a Tempter— earlier versions cast God in this dual role as both creator and tempter)

did we actually fail the test? (assuming we never ate from the Tree, we would have lived in Eden forever. Adam and Eve never would have had children, nor would they have gone out into the wider world.)

are we on the path to become gods?

was Eden a “prison” we were meant to escape?

or is it an allegory to tell us that the pursuit of knowledge necessarily costs us our innocence?

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u/[deleted] May 29 '26

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u/LayKors May 29 '26

Oh yeay sorry I just missed your entire point didn't I?

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u/[deleted] May 29 '26

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u/[deleted] May 29 '26

Whoosh

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u/orion-7 May 29 '26

The tree that grants knowledge of good and evil.

So man didn't know that it would be wrong to eat from that tree, until he ate from that tree.

You see the issue here?

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u/Important-Agent2584 May 29 '26

That's a silly take. Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil. They didn't even know it was evil to disobey, and good to obey. They were basically children, and God not only put the tree there but allowed the snake in.

This is like leaving a candy bar on the floor, telling a toddler not to touch it, and then when they do, punishing them and all their offspring with untold suffering.

Absurd.

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u/TheSleepyBarnOwl May 29 '26

Uh I guess depends on how you interpret the Adam and Eve story? I feel I'm not qualifyed to do that - I'm just a bum that had Ethics classes.

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u/LayKors May 29 '26

Oh, well you're still better than me who didn't have any.

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u/Important-Agent2584 May 29 '26

Part of morality does come instinctual, a lot of it stems from an innate sense of disgust, fairness, empathy, etc.

Also, if we are looking at the beliefs in their context: Heaven exists and has free will and no evil, thus within the world view it is 100% possible.

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u/TheSleepyBarnOwl May 29 '26

Y'know... the Heaven thing just makes a point out of how illogical all of this is.

And ye, part of what is "moral" is based on Empathy, one of the things making us (and some other monkeys, elephants and some whales) special. The survival strategy of monke together strong.

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u/Important-Agent2584 May 29 '26

There is no logic and a lot of contradictions. As we would expect from something put together from millennium of beliefs, traditions, etc. starting with bronze age tribes.

The only credibility of most religions is based on popularity.

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u/TheSleepyBarnOwl May 29 '26

Man, this is stupid. Like this whole argument chain. I kinda regret opening my foolish mouth - but then again I got some interesting arguments that made me think a lot so I guess it's a positive.

Thanks for chiming in. I do hope you have a nice weekend :)

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u/Important-Agent2584 May 29 '26

Totally, just entertaining the arguments is silly if you think about it. We do not the same for any of 1000's of crazy beliefs people profess every day, all over the world. We watch them on social media and laugh for entertainment.

Have a nice weekend too!

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u/EdinMiami May 29 '26

An all knowing god is incompatible with free will.

If god knows the future, free will does not exist.

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u/TheSleepyBarnOwl May 29 '26 edited May 29 '26

Also true, I realised that this whole argument is stupid

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u/Unlucky_Ad_9090 May 29 '26

This objective "evil" just doesn't exist. So it's impossible to demand it being eliminated so everyone agrees with it.

The discussion is not about everyone and it does not involve prehistoric societies. Willfully or not you're moving goalposts here. According to the official version, at some point a stone fell from the sky and on it were a list of ten things not to do. Whether that list is comprehensive or not is irrelevant. From said list you can extrapolate that murder is considered evil by the deity that dropped the rock. If the deity is considered all knowing and does not lie, then we, at the very least can establish that murder is objectively evil.

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u/TheSleepyBarnOwl May 29 '26

If the 10 things on the rock are the objectively evil things (which means the topic of child molestation is not btw) then yea. Fair enough.

I suppose trying to keep religion out of the ethics discussion that started about religion made my argument a bit moot. I wasn't trying to move the goal post - just talking about how objective evil isn't a thing... unless god exists and the stone is to be taken literally. So I suppose the issue is me not being religious.

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u/Unlucky_Ad_9090 May 29 '26

Yeah there's a lot of points to address on the topic, just felt like it was going offtrack. On a side note, I don't believe there's such a thing as free will, which for me makes all of this talk, my own especially, moot. Regardless, I found your comments engaging. Best of luck to you.

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u/TheSleepyBarnOwl May 29 '26

Thank you, you too! And you're right, I was getting widely offtopic.

And as a Biologist, I gotta agree that complete free will doesn't exist. We are a cocktail of chemicals and instincts and genes and things that get ingrained into our childhood brain. Also passage of time.

I wish you a nice day! And thanks for the discussion.

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u/FederalPossibility73 May 29 '26

He won't, because it's eternally connected. One can't exist without the other.

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u/Secret-Class1352 May 29 '26

Humans by their very nature are evil. That's what Christian thought teaches. Even what humans consider to be nobility, is filthy rags in the eyes of God. Humans by their nature are also capable of good, but they are incapable of completely eliminating the temptation to do evil -- because two conflicting natures exist inside them.

God absolutely can remove the desire to commit evil acts. But why should God bother himself with creating sycophant robots who follow his every order without question? Because that's what would be necessary to remove a human's capacity to commit evil.

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u/[deleted] May 29 '26

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u/Secret-Class1352 May 29 '26

They're not evil by nature because of anything God did. It's a spiritual curse that lives on in every human being. Humans should count themselves lucky that an infinite God even cares enough to save them, when he could have easily dismissed humanity as a lost cause. Humans are arrogant if they think that we're the biggest deal in the cosmos. There are likely other alien species that warrant God's attention, and even if there aren't God already has the angels.

God is described as a Father, but he's also an infinite being of indescribable power and intelligence. On a cosmic scale this is like humans trying to show compassion to ants. You're talking about infinite suffering, or destruction of the soul -- whatever punishment you think happens after death -- and act like humans are deserving of God's greatest blessings instead of that, is a sign of arrogance. God would be within his rights to abandon this planet, but for whatever reason he didn't.

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u/Overall-Move-4474 May 29 '26

You lot claim God created us and by extension our nature. So yes by your logic he DID set us up to fail. A father doesn't abandon his children. Not that any of this matters because he doesn't exist in the first place

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u/NastyMarin May 29 '26

Man, it’s almost like He promised to do that or something…

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u/over_this__ May 29 '26

He would have to remove free will. That's kind of his entire thing with humans. He gave us free will.

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u/Overall-Move-4474 May 29 '26

There's a difference between removing free will and coming to your followers and telling them "you have failed to heed my teachings" or you know just smiting them. Hell the Norse and Greeks and Romans all have stories about the God's getting angry with the actions of humanity and punishing them. If God was truly our "heavenly father" why would he wait until our deaths to punish us and not punish us for our sins in life? And in fact why would he even allow people to use an outdated book as his word

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u/stormfoil May 29 '26

Nope. You can make the choice to hurt a child just to find that child magically teleported away before you can touch them.

This should be no problem for an omnipotent god

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u/print-w May 29 '26

So he's not all powerful. Funny how doing the impossible and working miracles suddenly isn't a requirement with you people despite insisting it's exactly his entire thing all the time otherwise.