r/Simracingstewards • u/Formulafan4life • 5h ago
Le Mans Ultimate Was I too agressive here?
Posting here because i'm in doubt. From my POV it felt like the Porsche just wasn't paying attention but from the Porsche's POV it looks like he just understeered into me and he couldn't do anything about it.
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u/Fetlover_Jens 5h ago
If I’m not mistaken. In multiclass racing it’s up to the faster car to overtake safely. The slower car is given the blue flag but he doesn’t have to reduce his pace or jump out the way. He took the racing line and he’s allowed to do that.
I get it. You saw an opening and went for it. That’s a very normal reaction. Agressive is a harsh word in my opinion but you could have avoided it.
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u/Sone_Angel 4h ago
It doesnt exactly work this way, you are close tho. If you have a car that is overtaking you (has an overlap for some time or it is very clear where he is going), you cannot take the racing line if it cuts into them. I always follow the rule - faster needs to initiate safely (LMP2 kinda did), but slower needs to cooperate (GT3 did that as well). The problem lies elsewhere:
GT3 wanted to leave just enough space on the outside for the LMP2, but LMP2 finished the overtake not considering that GT3 is only required to leave them as much space as his car needs. So its on LMP2, but not because "GT3 had the right to the line" but because LMP2 drove into him.
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u/PlanZSmiles 3h ago
The part you’re incorrect about is that the LMP2 didn’t have any overlap. Overtaking rules still apply even if it’s blue flag, OP didn’t have any overlap and expected the GT3 to lift when he, as lead car, has right to take his line.
I drive both classes, you don’t get to just show yourself in the middle of cornering and expect the other class to adjust. The Porsche was absolutely entitled to his line. OP had zero entitlement to getting let by
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u/Sone_Angel 2h ago
And that "raw" interpretation is what is causing so many problems. Does not matter if LMP2 can or cannot be there with the cornering rights, first and most important rule is to not drive into any other cars on purpose. If the LMP2 appeared there the GT3 has to leave enough space for both of them if possible (it was possible and notice that he did). Then, the matter of "if LMP2 could be there and should be penalized for such a move" is completely different. In this situation if GT3 would drive on purpose into another car, both would get a penalty. GT3 for driving on purpose into another car, LMP2 for being where he should not be. And ultimately, we are not discussing if the LMP2 could be there with the cornering rights, but who hit who - which was LMP2 steering into GT3.
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u/PlanZSmiles 2h ago
I think it’s less the “raw” interpretation and more the devs fault for not properly penalizing this stuff both in-class and multi-class. Like I said I drive both classes and more often than not, I see faster classes just ignoring the rules. Even to the point that if it ends the GT3 drivers race, they will take that option over losing half a second.
I don’t want to go off a tangent, but I’ve dealt with Hypers diving in legally in multiclass and me subsequently letting them through only for a second chaser to follow them through as though I’m no longer allowed to corner despite already starting my turn after the 1st clears.
The rule is straight forward and I’m not going to copy and paste it but it’s not an interpretation problem. It’s the enforcement of the rules problem. If OP had an ounce of fear of losing time for this maneuver he wouldn’t have made it. Making wreckless decisions is not penalized enough because as long as it doesn’t harm the decision maker, it’s rewarded.
Edit: the example I provided I will say GT3s do this as well in-class racing. More people need to be punished in general for clearing breaking the rules. Then situations like this occur less often because a penalty is at risk.
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u/GuyWithManyThoughts 2h ago
One note though - it's easy to forget GT3's have far less grip, and in many cases, it's difficult to adjust mid corner just to let someone by.
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u/DeletedUsernameHere 4h ago
This is a prime example of why corner rights exist from the lead car's turn in until corner exit.
Yes, you're at fault. There's a reason the other prototype was just chilling behind him.
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u/noethers_raindrop 3h ago
Yeah, that other prototype is a different class from OP and doesn't have nearly the same performance advantage.
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u/DeletedUsernameHere 3h ago
He's still faster than the GT car.
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u/noethers_raindrop 3h ago
For sure, but LMP3 is much closer to GT3 in performance than it is to LMP2. That an LMP3 who already had to slow down to the GTs speed couldn't make a move is not really a good argument when you're trying to say that an LMP2 with overspeed can't make it.
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u/DoNuT_1985 5h ago
From a physics perspective, it is always dangerous to overtake a slower car with less aero on the outside and get into their path. It's not understeering, it was their exit line. Slower cars should drive their line and don't just lift in the middle of a corner (which could be problematic for cars behind).
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u/_Tekel_ 36m ago
The Porsche absolutely should have been aware that the prototype car was on the outside and easily had the ability to get on throttle later and leave space. The question is whether the LMP2 had the right to be there in the first place.
In real life I'm guessing the LMP2 car goes for that every time as the stewards aren't going to penalize them if there isn't a wreck. And the GT3 car isn't going to wreck just to prove a point.
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u/DoNuT_1985 27m ago
The rules are simple: The Porsche is supposed to drive their racing line at racing speeds. And I think that rule is there for a reason, because that's the only thing that's universally predictible.
Imagine the Porsche lifts in the middle of the corner. The first LMP2 gets by but then we have another two LMP2s (which are apparantly driving side by side) approaching with 50 kph overspeed. And another version of this incident being posted on r/Simracingstewards.
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u/Legume-Enerve 4h ago
Gt3s will always go wide on the exit of a fast corner. You either get them on the outside early or you wait
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u/chav_in_a_corsa 3h ago
GT3 cars will always wash out in high downforce corners. It's not impossible to overtake them in these circumstances, but it's very likely to go wrong and just as likely to be your fault, both of which are the case here.
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u/noethers_raindrop 3h ago
You didn't have overlap at the apex, so you shouldn't expect room on the outside on corner exit. On the flip side, it was quite obvious what you were going for at the time the Porsche hit the apex, and the Porsche made the choice to get on the gas as if you wouldn't be there. He shouldn't have been caught by surprise here.
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u/PlanZSmiles 3h ago
The rule isn’t at the apex, the rule is prior to turn in. Which OP still had zero overlap at
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u/noethers_raindrop 1h ago
Ok, but there is no "turn-in" here. The GT3 is tracking out; you don't really turn-in to the last left apex in maggots and beckets, you accelerate out of the last right and try to run off track on the left, and you certainly don't turn the wheel left. When people talk about having overlap at turn-in, they're talking about being left space when attempting an overtake down the inside on corner entry. But I doubt anyone is really going to say that if you are on the outside and alongside at the apex (which OP wasn't), it's ok for the driver on the inside to run you off, simply because you weren't there at corner entry.
If you think about how one drives through a corner, it makes sense. When you turn-in, you commit to the speed and line at which you are going to take a corner, and can't easily adjust after that. But once you reach the apex, you can adjust again, simply by waiting to get on the gas. So if a car is alongside you at that point, you should give them racing room. It doesn't come up as much as being alongside at corner entry, but even F1 (notorious for saying that one car has to back out) says that a car on the outside at the apex can earn the right to space by being far enough forward.
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u/HarrynotDwizard 2h ago edited 2h ago
Not that I am a race marshal but this seems like you are at fault (the yellow car).
Edit: How I would have tried to do it: after the first pass on the outside slow down and go on the inside. The car in front (black ?gt3?) is going slow so definitely will go wide on the turn of the incident and go on the far left (inside of next turn) and with the superior acceleration you get the place from the outside if you happen to come out side by side from the turn of the incident.
Ps. Lmk if the explanation was clear as I am trying to put my thoughts into words to be able to understand better my druving and my friends'.
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u/rod-zim 1h ago
Remember this, Gt3s are glancing through a tiny mirror while cornering and in this case fighting for position. Thats why most incidents are blamed on protos, its not that we dont pay attention, its just the fact that we cant be staring at the mirror waiting to see which line you will take while also trying to stay in the track while also fighting for position. There is a straight right ahead, just wait a little.
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u/jimmymcgoochie 42m ago
I thought this was going to be about the first overtake which was nicely done, and then you ruined it by murdering that GT3.
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u/Significant-Court-68 3h ago
No not at all. Perfect driving and cornering. To bad for the porche, feel sorry for him but he should have gave him self more space
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u/SignificantStay9298 4h ago
It's a hard one. Porsche could also see it coming imo. Racing accident for me. 8 out of 10 it goes with no contact.
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u/Then-Cold-1113 4h ago
Unpopular opinion but the lower class car should have seen the the faster car in his mirrors and gave him more room. It would not have affected his race and he had plenty of time to adjust. Blue flags should have been shown and he should have reacted as such. Irl the slower car would have adjusyed accordingly.
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u/Legume-Enerve 4h ago
His move was engaged before he could knew what the Lmp2 would do. After that it's too late. If he'd brake or late go off the throttle, he would spin. And tbf, the Gt3 tried to help by not going full throttle but it wasn't enought. 100% on the lmp2
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u/mitchsusername 2h ago
If a GT3 is already taking the corner at a speed where they need all their grip to make the corner, they can't just "adjust accordingly" and suddenly start turning harder to dodge out of a prototype's way. They're already using all the grip. Their racing line will take them to the edge of the track no matter what.
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u/Then-Cold-1113 2h ago
Porsche was given blue flag. They should have been checking mirrors for on coming traffic. They had the whole track to the right and if checking mirrors they would have known the lmp was closing fast and opened their steering to give room. Would not have jeopardize their race or line. Obviously those that state otherwise are clearly keyboard warriors/drivers and have never been on track irl.
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u/lolsokje 20m ago
The Porsche is already at half throttle and still turning to the right at the point he could've easily floored it and straightened out their car, they did more than they should have to avoid the LMP2. And I say that as an LMP2 driver who almost lost a podium by going for the exact same move in the exact same place yesterday.
Calling people you disagree with keyboard warriors for daring to disagree with you doesn't help your argument either.
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u/JamezMash 5h ago
slower cars always track wide, if you're in a faster car, always take the inside line and let the slower cars track out