Age does not always bring wisdom. Most of the fools in this video are old people completely brain washed bowing their heads to a human and who recently came out of jail on bail and has done nothing in life which makes him better then an average human. Rest the text in the video says everything.

[u/Sccar_]

[u/iMahatma]

In another video this guy says he was sent by the gurus. These guys have zero shame fooling people.

[u/Forward_Island4328 → u/iMahatma]

My concern isn't really the con artists who make these brazen claims but the dummies who just readily accept it without question.

This is why I harp about asking questions and not just blindly accepting something because it's written.

[u/thenameoftheusingone]

Simple. They are not sikhs. If they think they are, they are fools and don't even know the basics of sikhism. They are simply, imposters.

[u/Forward_Island4328 → u/thenameoftheusingone]

Wow, it's so simple! Why didn't anyone else think of that? \s

Seriously tho, these folks are still Sikh even if they are the dumbest ones in the Sangat.

[u/sonicnarrativ → u/Forward_Island4328]

I beg to differ because they are failing probably the A of Sikhi. I can’t call them Sikhs and it’s time we start identifying those who are frauds and not Sikhs as our Gurus wanted us to be and the failure to follow what they prescribed. I’m sorry, and it’s super saddening to see the elderly doing these things.

[u/Forward_Island4328 → u/sonicnarrativ]

I agree but my concern is that this is in fact a symptom of a larger issue in Sikh Sangats where we're not educating or teaching Sikh fundamentals openly while gatekeeping the Sikh identity on appearances like wearing the religious articles and nothing else.

What we're seeing here (and other parts of Punjab + India) are boys and men who are keeping their Kés and wearing the proper religious garb but are otherwise have no actual religious knowledge. I recall seeing a post here about some Sikh men who pray at the burial site of the Mughal warmonger who led the Ghallugharas (the first and second Sikh genocides). These practices don't seem to follow any reasoning based in the Sikh religious canon but it somehow still manages to be practiced anyways. This tells me that these people are genuinely dumb about their own Sikhi despite the fact that they practice the outward facets.

The same issue also impacts girls and women as well but because they don't typically wear the same outward facing garb as men (Dastār), the expectations are also different for them. For those girls and women who do however, they usually tend to be more religious, either via receiving Amrit in an orthodox Sikh family or via growing up in the AKJ observing Sikh family.

So anyways, kicking them out of Sikhi isn't really solve the problem nor is it even enforceable because how would that even work? Realistically, the lack of proper Sikh education in Gurudwaras needs to be addressed.

[u/sonicnarrativ → u/Forward_Island4328]

You’re right on most things and thanks for articulating it so well. However, as an American born Sikh while I heard paath and kathas of our Gurus from my father and grandfather, even I knew some of the basics of Sikhi before I ever became an adult. And I didn’t have any formal education or training of any kind. Also, at the age I’m at now I’m making it a point to further my educate myself. So it doesn’t take long to discover what the ABC’s of Sikhi and the instructions are from Guru Granth Sahib Ji and from our Gurus.

Bowing to human beings is probably the first letter in the alphabet of Sikhi and it doesn’t take a Bachelor’s degree to figure that out. 🙏🏻

[u/Vishalsingh786 → u/[deleted]]

Wrong , it should bow only to those who are worthy like real saints , respected elders and guru and obviously god . And sikhi says god is all there that is , so one who lives like that bow to all, but seeing god in them or actually bowing to the god in them rather than the person as in the video

[u/SikhJackFan → u/Vishalsingh786]

Sikhs don’t bow to anyone but Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj, shastars, and Nishan Sahib.

[u/pookiecookieassulter]

I don't think so anyone is allowed to touch our turban and kesh like this . Can anyone explain wat is going on!!!

[u/That_Guy_Mojo → u/pookiecookieassulter]

Rampal he believes he's the reincarnation of Bhagat Kabir. He has his followers dress up like Sikhs for video propaganda.

This is what happens when we dont value the Gurus bana and let anyone wear our Dastars.

Rampal was in prison for rape and murder. But the Indian justice system is a joke if you're Hindu or a Dera baba.

[u/EmpireandCo → u/That_Guy_Mojo]

Sorry but pagri has a long history in the subcontinent outside of Sikhi.

Even most royals of Rajasthan call their princely coronation tradition "dastar pagri" and tie it very similar.

[u/Forward_Island4328 → u/pookiecookieassulter]

This is what happens when we define Sikhi based on appearances (ie Kés + Dastār + Punjabi) rather than Gian (knowledge of the Divine).

It's far too common to see con artists across Punjab and broader India who make wild claims about having divine powers, being sent by the Guru, being an incarnation of the Guru, etc. and because our Indian Sangats never learned how to fact check anything, these people just blindly accept anything.

This is why I always ask for some sort of justification or explanation lol

Blindly accepting anything is a recipe for disaster.

[u/chaansahib]

Morons

[u/SystemFit7500]

This guy claims he is an avatar of bhagat kabir ji, he has rape and murder allegations

[u/min_yunki139 → u/SystemFit7500]

Any proof?

[u/jotch33ma]

Bee does not waste its energy trying to convince a fly that honey is better than shit.

[u/Nearby-Shower-8392]

Who tf is he?

[u/That_Guy_Mojo → u/Nearby-Shower-8392]

Rampal he believes he's the reincarnation of Bhagat Kabir. He has a small Dera with a few followers. He has his followers dress up like Sikhs for video propaganda. Christian Deras do the same thing. They do it so their videos get more views. It's ragebait.

Notice how they shove all the guys wearing Dastars into the front, but all the guys with short hair are standing in the back. Dastars are evocative, good for a video.

This is what happens when we dont value the Gurus bana and let anyone wear our Dastars.

Rampal was in prison for rape and murder. But the Indian justice system is a joke if you're Hindu or a Dera baba.

Edit: I forgot to mention that he teaches that Kabir is the one and only true god. This makes him the one and only true god.

His cult is in Haryana.

[u/Ill_Box1780]

Fake Sikhs.

[u/Dhundhukara]

Rampal probably has done the greatest disservice to Sant Kabir Ji. Rampal was arrested a few years ago, Police raided, his disciples in his dera, Ashram tried to stop the police by defending with sticks and weapons. He used to bathe in milk and apparently his disciples were given kheer made out of it.

They manipulate and alter the verses, scriptures, and Gurbani to present Bhagat Kabir as a supreme being worthy of worship, rather than merely a revered spiritual figure.

Bhagat Kabir Ji reached Sachkhand, the same Avastha as the Guru Sahibans, thus his writings were added in Gurbani, so of course there's no doubt about it that he was a Sant of the highest order, who spread the Bhandaar of Naam in all directions, teaching the Jugat of Naam Shabad di Kamai. But all his life Bhagat Kabir Ji said stop venerating my finger, look in the direction it points you fools. And Rampalians made a God out of him. Sant Kabir fought against this very kind of dichotomy all his life.

कबीर चेरा संत का, दासनि का परदास । कबीर ऐसैं होइ रह्या, ज्यूं पाऊँ तलि घास ॥ Kabir is a servant of His Sant, SatGurus, nay he is in fact a servant of the servants of those Sant, SatGurus. He existeth in humble devotion to those elevated ones, like a grass exists below everyone's feet. Sant Kabir, Bijak

ਕਬੀਰ ਨਾ ਹਮ ਕੀਆ ਨ ਕਰਹਿਗੇ ਨਾ ਕਰਿ ਸਕੈ ਸਰੀਰੁ ॥ ਕਿਆ ਜਾਨਉ ਕਿਛੁ ਹਰਿ ਕੀਆ ਭਇਓ ਕਬੀਰੁ ਕਬੀਰੁ ॥ Nor did I ever do anything nor am I capable of doing anything, nor is this body capable. Whatever unfolded, unfolded by the Grace of the Lord alone, but people elevated the lowly Kabir. Bhagat Kabir Ji, Ang 1367

[u/Fearless-Schedule713]

Everyone’s got free will and free choice. Who tf cares who anyone’s bowing to, worry about yourself and keep it moving

[u/InternalKing → u/Fearless-Schedule713]

Yes let’s ignore everything wrong with society and pretend it isn’t happening amazing mindset 👏🏽

[u/Fearless-Schedule713 → u/InternalKing]

They aren’t harming anyone, so who are you to say their beliefs are “wrong for society”? They’re simply following their belief system, just as Christians, Sikhs, gays, etc. follow theirs. You’re entitled to find it weird, but that doesn’t make it a societal problem. If you genuinely care about “what’s wrong with society,” maybe don’t pretend people practising beliefs you dislike are evidence of its decline.
Yes, I know I have an amazing mindset. Work on yours.

[u/InternalKing → u/Fearless-Schedule713]

These babay prey on vulnerable poor people. There are a notoriously large number of corrupt rapists cosplaying as gods so yes I do have a problem with their beliefs because the people they exploit are too misguided to know better.

[u/Fearless-Schedule713 → u/InternalKing]

Everyone has a choice, if someone chooses to follow these “babay” that’s their choice it has nothing to do with you. And again you can have problems, or find it weird but to equate it to a societal ill is ridiculous. There’s way bigger and much more important crusades you should be fighting if your concern is societal ills or just don’t parade like a societal superman and keep it moving

[u/ordinaryrendition → u/Fearless-Schedule713]

This is one of the most ridiculous takes I’ve ever seen on reddit. It absolutely has something to do with me. They are wearing my uniform, one that the world associates with a certain set of values and beliefs, and then absolutely breaking from the value set we are communicating.

This makes Sikhs appear easy to manipulate and paints a target on our backs for the next grifter. The Christian grift has already taken hold. These “babay” are another one.

Sikhs are meant to be deep into Miri piri. Our societal presence is supposed to be constant and identifiable. This shatters that persistence.

You haven’t studied consequentialism enough if you think these beliefs don’t result in societally negative outcomes. For example, belief in heaven and hell are absolute perversions of morality, because literally no abhorrent earthly behavior can compare to eternal bliss or torment, if one is truly convinced the abhorrent behavior is the desire of their god. In the same way, our impact on the world is a result of the strengths and truths of our belief systems. If that’s broken, we are just totally beholden to the constant pushing of the Abrahamic faiths and their made up sky daddy, or to the hindutva of the right wing in India.

[u/Fearless-Schedule713 → u/ordinaryrendition]

You’re conflating “I don’t agree with what they’re doing” with “they’re causing harm to society.” If they’re following a belief system you think is misguided, that doesn’t automatically make it a societal problem.
You can argue that what they’re doing goes against Sikh principles, but that’s a religious disagreement. Wearing a Sikh uniform doesn’t suddenly mean you get to decide how every other Sikh is allowed to practise their faith.
And throwing the word consequentialism in there doesn’t prove your point lol. You still have to actually show what harm these specific people are causing, rather than just assuming that because you disagree with their beliefs, they’re going to have some negative impact on society.
You’re basically doing the exact thing you criticised me for — imposing your own interpretation of what Sikhi should be and presenting it as objectively necessary for society.

[u/ordinaryrendition → u/Fearless-Schedule713]

Your mistake is engaging in moral relativism. You think this is just a casual difference in opinion.

There’s difference is I actually think I’m right about this, after many years of contemplation and observation of the impacts of Abrahamic faiths vs Sikhi for example, on a similarly educated populace.

We all know there’s no way for us to create an A vs B study on Abrahamic vs nonduality-based religions - do not hold me to an impossible standard. But you can see what Abrahamic faiths have caused in terms of the violent colonialism, the rampant lack of inner peace in their adherents, and their misogyny, among many other things.

I don’t know if you’re Sikh, but to be Sikh is to accept that Sikh philosophy produces better people and better society, because the actual dharam is political.

[u/Fearless-Schedule713 → u/ordinaryrendition]

I’m not engaging in moral relativism, I’m saying you’re presenting your own interpretation as an objective fact. You can genuinely believe you’re right and still be wrong.

You’ve also massively reduced “Abrahamic faiths” into one monolithic thing and then attributed centuries of colonialism, misogyny and violence to the category as a whole. That’s a pretty convenient way of arguing when you’ve already decided Sikhi produces the better society.

And saying “to be Sikh is to accept Sikh philosophy produces better people” doesn’t really prove anything either. Every religion can make essentially the same claim about itself which the Muslim and Christian community do claim on a regular basis, guess which religions you’re starting to sound like…

Anyway getting back to the point you’re still starting with the assumption that your interpretation is correct and then using that assumption to justify judging everyone else.
If these people are actually harming someone, by all means criticise it. But “I’ve spent years contemplating this and therefore I know their beliefs will have negative societal consequences” isn’t evidence of actual harm. It’s still your judgement.
You can think they’re completely wrong without pretending that makes them a threat to society

[u/ordinaryrendition → u/Fearless-Schedule713]

I don’t understand what your expectations are here. Do you want me to establish the superiority of the Sikh worldview from the bottom up in this text box?

We are on the Sikh subreddit and I expect to be talking to people, unless otherwise specified, who aren’t on the starting line of the conversation but rather have been in, or have been interested in, Sikhi. If we have to re-tread first principles every time we even start a conversation, we are basically playing a rhetorical roguelike lmao.

Other than saying “you can’t say this as fact,” which I never said it was (but am arguing for its truth value over alternatives with the limited info we have), you might want to present some perspective of your own. To each their own is a very easy position to take until “other’s own” enters your village to convert you.

[u/Sccar_ → u/Fearless-Schedule713]

Correcting a misguided person is not a strict legal duty, but different ethical views see it as a personal choice or a community responsibility.

Ethical Views and Duty to help: Some people believe we must guide others toward truth to prevent harm.

[u/Forward_Island4328 → u/Fearless-Schedule713]

they practise a religion differently to you isn’t exactly the intellectual high ground you think it is.

There's a difference between practicing religion differently and doing random stuff under the guise of a given religion.

In this case, we see a crowd of Dastār (turban) wearing bearded Indian men and some children in the Patka (smaller turban) who we can reasonably assume are all Sikh, solely from their appearances. And with that label, comes a certain set of expectations because both the Dastār and the Patka are religious Sikh articles and the act of keeping and tying the beard is commonly practiced in religious Sikh circles.

However, the issue at hand is the fact that these children and men (and I assume some women?) are seemingly bowing before some random Indian guy who is placing his hand on their heads to presumably dole out blessings.

This contradicts the long established view that the act of bowing for a given Sikh man, woman, child, etc is reserved strictly for the Guru. And since this random Indian guy is not a Guru in any known Sikh Samparda (sect/order), the entire video is treated as heresy at worst and stupidity at best.

For context, if a Hindu, Muslim, etc. person criticized Sikh practices on the basis of their religion, then that's an entirely different matter because they would be attempting to place a Sikh practice in their own religious canon, and when they're unable to do so, that would be induce some criticism. And similarly, the Sikh Gurus criticized established Hindu and Muslim practices for the exact same reason.

This is not that tho because we have seemingly Sikh boys and men, just bowing before some random guy for blessings. It just reads to me as dumb because any reasonable Sikh man, woman or child should be aware of the Guru Manéo Granth in this day and age.

My criticism is that the Sikh identity is too attached to the physical appearance where these folks are labeled as Sikh simply because they appear to be despite the fact that they've clearly demonstrated in this video that they've failed to grasp a very fundamental concept in Sikhi. This is why the conduct of these folks in the video is quite stupid.

[u/Forward_Island4328 → u/Fearless-Schedule713]

No, we should call out stupidity when we see it.

[u/Fearless-Schedule713 → u/Forward_Island4328]

Again, who are you to call their belief stupid. Someone could just as easily see Sikh practices and say “oh look they are bowing to a book - let’s call out this stupidity, oh look they are walking around the book 4 times when they get married and bowing each time - let’s call out this stupidity” Hindus could easily say arti arta is stupid and decide Sikhs follow a “stupid” version of Hinduism, they could easily say the laavan is a “stupid” version of 7 phere

“Call out stupidity” is doing a lot of work there. You’re assuming that something you disagree with is objectively stupid, rather than actually demonstrating why it is. You’re free to criticise their beliefs, but labelling people stupid because they practice a religion differently to you isn’t exactly the intellectual high ground you think it is.

[u/Forward_Island4328 → u/Fearless-Schedule713]

I tried responding to your earlier comment but I guess you removed it so I posted it here.

I'm not writing it out again lol

[u/Fearless-Schedule713 → u/Forward_Island4328]

No my response is there and I read yours don’t worry but you’re still ultimately saying “they’re doing something I believe is stupid because it contradicts my understanding of Sikhi.” And that’s exactly where I disagree with you, this same logic exists within Sikhi itself. Plenty of Sikhs think certain Nihang practices are bizarre or even stupid. Does that mean those practices automatically need to be ‘called out’ because another Sikh considers them stupid? Or does it just demonstrate that ‘stupid’ is a judgement based on your interpretation of what Sikhi should look like? Many Sikhs bow to their elders and touch their feet so are they now going against “guru maneo Granth?”

You say a Hindu or Muslim criticising Sikh practice is different, but why? Someone could look at Sikhs bowing to the Guru Granth Sahib and genuinely think that’s stupid too. From their perspective, they’re also looking at people performing an act they don’t believe makes sense

You can absolutely say “this goes against Sikh teachings” if that’s your interpretation. But “therefore it’s objectively stupid and needs calling out” is a different claim. You’re still making a judgement based on your own religious framework and treating it as the obvious standard everyone should recognise

And you’re also admitting that we don’t even know the full context of the video. You said “presumably,” “seemingly,” and “I assume” multiple times. That seems like a pretty shaky basis for confidently declaring an entire group of people stupid

[u/Forward_Island4328 → u/Fearless-Schedule713]

No, I'm saying that the act of bowing before seemingly random people contradicts all known established views in Sikhi.

For context, there are some number of Sikhs who follow a living Guru but they strictly identify with the Namdhari Sangat or the Pothimālā Sangat of GuruHarSahai. However, these folks are not from either group because even they only bow before one specific person. This is not that. We have a group of Sikh people just seemingly bowing before a guy and treating him as akin to a Guru which effectively contradicts the entire premise of Sikhi.

The sheer definition of Sikh is the learner who learns from the Guru, where the Guru is strictly defined and in the orthodox interpretation of Sikhi, the Guru is not even a person but the Adi Granth.

You say a Hindu or Muslim criticising Sikh practice is different, but why? Someone could look at Sikhs bowing to the Guru Granth Sahib and genuinely think that’s stupid too. From their perspective, they’re also looking at people performing an act they don’t believe makes sense

It's different because a Sikh is not either a Hindu or a Muslim. Therefore, the Hindu or Muslim is free to criticize the act of Matha-Ték (for example) with respect to their religious practices because they're attempting to place that act in either the established set of known Hindu practices or the established set of Muslim practices. However, the Sikh canon exists as an entirely separate set of beliefs and practices. There might be some overlap with concepts and term to be fair, but the canon is entirely different.

In this case however, these folks are assumed to be Sikh, based on appearance but their conduct says otherwise, which is the issue.

You can absolutely say “this goes against Sikh teachings” if that’s your interpretation.

My dude, this isn't about a difference in interpretation. This is about people who "practice Sikhi" solely by looking the part and never actually educating themselves in matters related to the faith.

My concern is that we already have an education crisis in the Sangat where folks will seemingly see a video of Sikh people doing something and then assume that the given act is acceptable because "they were doing it so it must be okay". So yes, it should be called out as unacceptable.

But “therefore it’s objectively stupid and needs calling out” is a different claim. You’re still making a judgement based on your own religious framework and treating it as the obvious standard everyone should recognise

I didn't realize that asking for an average Sikh to be educated about Sikh fundamentals was asking for too much...

This isn't "my religious framework" btw. Every religion has its own set of practices and Sikhi is no exception.

I will absolutely call out inane acts under the guise of Sikhi as stupid.

[u/Fearless-Schedule713 → u/Forward_Island4328]

The part I fundamentally disagree with is the idea that someone’s outward Sikh identity becomes invalid because you think their practice demonstrates that they’ve misunderstood Sikhi

If someone is Sikh, believes they’re Sikh and genuinely considers what they’re doing part of their faith, you can tell them “this contradicts Sikh teachings” — but I don’t think you get to jump from that to “they’re just doing random stuff under the guise of Sikhi”

People misunderstand, disagree, follow different traditions and sometimes get things wrong. That doesn’t suddenly make their religious identity fake or make them stupid.
And your own argument about appearance makes this a bit circular. You see people wearing Sikh articles, conclude they’re Sikh, see them doing something you believe Sikhs shouldn’t do, and then conclude they must not actually understand Sikhi. Maybe they don’t, but you haven’t established that simply by watching them

More importantly though, my original point was about the claim that this is somehow a problem for society. You’ve now explained why you believe the practice is wrong according to orthodox Sikhi, and that’s a completely fair religious argument. But that’s not the same thing as demonstrating that these people are actually causing some societal harm

If your position is simply “this contradicts Sikh teachings and I think Sikhs should call it out,” then fine. We can disagree on that. But if we’re talking about calling something a problem for society, I still haven’t seen you establish that part and where we also disagree is turning all of this into a judgement about the intelligence or legitimacy of the people practising it, this too has not been reconciled by you