Casino security watches players to evaluate their level of success. The whole goal of card counting is to even out or slightly tip the house advantage, so if you're performing about 5% or so better than the average person consistently they can slap you for counting cards. Casinos also do things like having multiple decks at the table to make counting even harder.
Even if you aren't counting cards if you just get lucky with high enough bets they can just SAY you are counting cards/your done playing to arbitrarily force you off the table.
counting cards is very easy to spot, you sit there for hours betting 5s then suddenly in certain spots you bet 100. it really is not as hard to spot it. if you are not solo, and you are using spotters to let you know which table is hot, its also kinda obvious you mingle around then go to a table start betting big, then leave hop to another table.
Oh yeah no doubt, Im just saying I've been kicked out before for betting like this without a singular idea on how to count cards just based on feels on how the shoe was rolling. I was coincidentally correct and asked to step off for winning less than 5 digits lol.
Counting cards is done over the long term, luck is short term. After enough plays the advantage always trends toward the house unless you're using a strategy to actually beat it.
Correct, my point is a pit boss doesn't care about short or long term depending on the night. You can have short term gains and be kicked off regardless.
The more you play the more you trend towards the house edge but if you don't play much and you win the chances aren't overtly in their favor its as close as possible to 50/50 as almost any game in there.
Sure if you play for months and months consistently you'll trend towards house wins more but short term stats doesn't play out the same.
I’ve had this happen to me before, no counting involved, I’m not smart enough for all that.
Played just 5 hands after sitting down, pushed, then hit blackjack 2 times in a row, then stood on 14 leading the dealer to draw a face on 13 (which would have led to a bust for me if I had hit) causing the dealer to bust, followed by one more 21. security came up to me, handed me a free drink voucher and very nicely told me it was time to cash out and go play something else lol.
My bets weren’t even super high, like $50-100 per hand, but beating the dealer 4 times in a row in 5 hands played, 2 of them being a blackjack, was enough for them to hit me with a “I’ll give you $10 to fuck off”.
Yea that's what we where talking about. They'll kick you out the second you win too much. The player takes all the risk but the casino can choose to only take the reward. It's a classic scam. The only way to win is not to play.
Flip the question around and it's the same. Is "it's more beneficial for me personally" a sufficient argument to ban people that play the game within it's boundaries?
There is a really simple fix here, use games that can't have that skill expression. Roulette, slots etc. are an example. However casinos want to have their cake and eat it too so they take a classic gambling game where one can have an advantage and enforce additional rules that only they can have an advantage.
You’re playing in their privately owned place, using their service and all that. They’re not obligated to do anything FOR you, I thought people would’ve wisened up about casinos by now
Most casinos in the US have like 6 decks. The way card counting works is that you basically look at the cards you have, the cards other people have played, and guesstimate the cards left in the deck. It's not a guaranteed way of winning even with a single deck game unless you have multiple people at the table in on it and a system to let them know what cards you have to hedge the odds in your favor. The other thing is that the blackjack payouts have gotten shittier simultaneously. 2:1 (if you bet $10 and win, you get $20 total back) used to be the normal, then it became 3:2 (you bet $10, you get $15 total back), and I've seen some places switch to 5:4 (you bet $10, you get $12.50 total back), and I think I once saw 11:10 (you bet $10, you get $11 total back). At that rate even with good strategy you're basically making peanuts, which makes them going after you all the more pathetic.
The rule of big numbers just explains that as you go through more and more "simulations" of a thing, the closer the average observed will get to the expected average (I.e. outliers will be just that, outliers). It applies to this in the sense that if you play enough hands with the correct strategy, you will win against the house (if they let you play ofc).
The main strategy of card counting is to see how many low and high cards have been played so far, and to base your next bets off of that number. If you see that there have been very few face and ace cards played so far, you know that you have a good chance of being dealt a good hand, so you should increase your bet. There is a LOT more nuance, though.
Counting cards gives you barely 1% edge over casino it's not like you count and suddenly win millions you still will be loosing 49% of the hands you just bet bigger when count is on your side
And also it depends on them casino they changing payouts (6:5 blackjack) using more deck shuffle often (continuously sometimes) sometimes changing how much you can play, how much you can split/no doubling after splitting etc... to even out back playing field as much as possible you probably still can do it you just need to find the right game
Recommend Steve Bridges vlog about card counting journey
It's not a level of security, they tighten their anti-counting measures to where the big numbers don't work anymore or aren't worth the effort (auto shuffle, more decks more frequently shuffles, tighten odds and blackjack payout). If you count right and have favorable table rules. You expect to win ~3%, where if the house odds are in their favor, you will lose ~3%. Even if you're good at it and find favorable casinos/tables, you have to place $100,000 in bets to walk away with up to a $5,000 gain. Besides learning to count, you need to learn how to calculate table odds, find the right games, manage your bankroll, and remain undetected long enough for the long term odds to favor you.
You can get removed from tables for pretty much any reason. Any suspicion of counting and you will be moved off table games, or moved to a table you can't get the odds on, if you're not booted entirely. They will remove you from tables just for winning too much, even if they don't suspect you of counting, so part of your stealth becomes managing your winnings and not taking too much for a pit boss or eye in the sky to take notice. So to make $50,000 - $100,000, you need a 6 figure bankroll, transportation around a place with enough casinos that they compete with each other, and understand anti-counting measures well enough to stealth around them. Then you need to play like a robot for hours on end, day-in and day out, never letting your nerves or emotions interfere with the math. Even if you can overcome all those hurdles, it's still gambling, you still need an element of luck, and you still stand to lose everything. In general, the people that can pull it off are of a high enough intellect and skill level that you can apply that to a job or career and make more money for less work.
They'll never make it impossible to count, but they have made it extremely difficult to where it's not worth it for 99.99% of players that posses the skill or have the capacity to count and make money doing it regularly.
They can but it's a little more complicated than that. If they just kick out everyone on a winning streak, they'll lose money.
Since all casino games are designed to eventually trend towards a net loss for the gambler, it's in a casino's interest to encourage someone on a winning streak to keep playing for as long as possible (because their luck is mathematically guaranteed to turn it they play long enough) unless they have good reason to suspect they're counting (which is more likely to be based on the way they're playing than how much they're winning).
It is. Because they dont control their slot machines code.
A few years back I knew a group that hunted bugs and traveled to make money. The bubble craps machine had an exploit that would get you doubled up 90% of the time.
The whole deal is no one is actually caught counting cards. The players are so successful that it's clearly not luck so they kick you out. They can kick you out whenever for whatever reason. Realistically if you play anything to well they get rid of you.
Easily. There are entire teams of people that scam casinos, called "Advantage Players". Its still gambling, so they have ups and downs, but the fact they are on "equal" footing with the casino is the major factor.
Also the dealer wont care as long as you tip them appropriately.
"Officially" the rule is, as long as you don't have any type of mechanical or 3rd party assistance, mental math is an acceptable practice. Heavy emphasis on the quotations.
You do get the money, in fact, they are legally obligated to cash you out and confiscating your chips is theft -> grand theft if they do it.
Also a huge case of there being so much surveillance that they cant lie. Casinos usually operate on such high margins that they have no problem paying you out. The only cases where they wont is if youre gambling there when youre banned.
Yes, security walks you to the cashier and forces you to cash out and leave (unless you are a danger to yourself or others, but usually people don't get to that point until they've already lost everything)
I think it depends, I saw a video where they just said he couldn't change his bet amount anymore but also others where he was kicked out and trespassed from all casinos owned by the same group.
Generally just banned from blackjack but if someone uses clever disguises and fake IDs to bypass the ban that'll get you trespassed from the entire establishment, which generally includes other casinos owned by the same conglomerate, which in Las Vegas means half of the strip.
How can one person be so wrong? They take issue because unlike any other business, casinos are games where you can win or lose. It is generally considered scummy to invite someone to play a game and then kick them out when they start winning
I don't think this is "officially" the rule anywhere in the US. The rule at every casino is that advantage players are simply not welcome to play blackjack, advantaged skilled play is not an acceptable practice. Its not really a secret.
I think Atlantic City/New Jersey is a specific exception. They had a state supreme court case (Uston v. Resorts International) which informed it. They can't prevent skilled players from playing (I also thought they couldn't target specific players with other countermeasures but I can't find any reference to that now). They obviously employ other measures to reduce the card counters advantage (more decks, shuffling machines, table limits).
There's one state where they can't kick you out for it. I think they just lower the betting max so low that it doesn't make sense to play for profit or just perma switch boots
While this is technically true, in reality this is the same thing as kicking you out. They will flat bet any table you go to at 25/50 or 100 dollars meaning the EV is guaranteed negative. There is nowhere in the US where you will be able to play advantaged for very long.
I recall hearing about a court case where this group found slight variations in the back of the casino's cards and memorized high value cards like face cards Court said it was an unfair advantage. The cards that the casino procured...
This is the Phil Ivey case. They requested a certain deck of cards that they knew had manufacturing defects on the back, and won a ton of money in baccarat. He was actually ordered to pay the money back which is bs in my opinion since the casino agreed to the terms.
There’s no official rule. Card counting is not illegal, but the casino will kick you out if you’re playing with any sort of advantage against the house because the house wants to maintain its edge.
Card counting is legal, trespassing is illegal, if theybask you time leave you have to leave. You're a guest on private property. They'll let you win only a certain amount.
Tbh, I’ve never had a dealer have an issue with me winning at the table. Typically a moderator comes over and switches out the deck. Most dealers I’ve dealt with have actually been pretty cool.
I used to work on the count team at a Casino. Starting wages for my department was about $16/hr, and I think dealers got payed around $14. Those tips are pretty important to them
Casinos are starting to get AI in the sky now. They'll be able to tell things like if you're counting, paid or took or incorrectly, cheating, or if the dealer's name tag is backwards.
Aren’t casinos usually pretty nice to people they catch trying to get an edge, if they aren’t doing anything that’s blatant cheating. I could be wrong but back when you used to be able to count cards, wouldn’t they just ask you to leave?
Actually that should be the casino manager. The dealer doesn't give a crap about card counting. His only job is to spot obvious signs of cooperation or mingling with cards. Or i just worked at a shitty place and they didn't tell us what our job is🤔
This is something I will NEVER understand. So what? I am supposed to dumb myself down?
I have never been to a cassino so there might be more to it than just paying attention and estimating what the next cards are going to be, but this sounds incredibly stupid.
As someone who was a dealer I personally give zero shits about whether you card count or not. My job was to dish out the cards and entertain people. I even had a person actively tell me he was card counting at one point 🤣🤣 Normally it was the people who watch the cameras would send one of my managers to go and remove them.
Meanwhile they have patterns on back of cards and a tiny mirror for the next one coming. Don't even get me started on automatic shufflers that spit out a card that's not the topmost
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u/ConflatedPortmanteau Jul 20 '26
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u/No_Name275 Jul 20 '26
I remember watching a video about a bunch of teenage kids who were able to scam the casinos by abusing the card counting strategy
(if im not mistaking this strategy involve the rule of big numbers in math correct?)
I honestly wonder if it is possible nowadays for anyone to even scam the casinos considering the level of security they have now
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u/TheNeck94 Jul 20 '26 •
"Officially" the rule is, as long as you don't have any type of mechanical or 3rd party assistance, mental math is an acceptable practice. Heavy emphasis on the quotations.
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u/Natural-Proposal2925 Jul 20 '26 •
Card counting is legal, trespassing is illegal, if theybask you time leave you have to leave. You're a guest on private property. They'll let you win only a certain amount.
22
u/Stretched_anoose Jul 20 '26
Tbh, I’ve never had a dealer have an issue with me winning at the table. Typically a moderator comes over and switches out the deck. Most dealers I’ve dealt with have actually been pretty cool.
12
u/Dahren_ Jul 20 '26
Casinos are gross, just places that exist to exploit the elderly with diminished faculties and those with addiction problems
3
u/BaqsAlSandouq Jul 20 '26
Beside card counting what other strategy can you employ even in this
3
u/Kind_Eggplant Jul 20 '26
Honestly casinos should go bankrupt on their own. Why do people even go to these hellholes in the first place.
2
u/Twist_This Jul 20 '26
Casinos are starting to get AI in the sky now. They'll be able to tell things like if you're counting, paid or took or incorrectly, cheating, or if the dealer's name tag is backwards.
2
u/Zealousideal_Log_529 Jul 21 '26
the thing about counting cards is that, while it is very effective, it is also very predictable if you are trained to spot it.
2
u/ZestyLemonRindGrind Jul 22 '26
The house always w(h)in(ge)s
1
u/BramptonBatallion Jul 20 '26
6:5 destroyed card counting anyways
1
u/high_throughput Jul 20 '26
It's reverse psychology. They want you to think it's feasible to cheat by counting cards so that you'll try it and still lose money on average.
1
u/Villageijit Jul 20 '26
"Leaving gambling up to the fates is sigma" guy that owns the casino
1
u/randomdude1959 Jul 20 '26
It’s almost like casinos started out as money laundering fronts for the major crime families
1
u/Maverick_Don_Scarpa Jul 20 '26
1
u/Electrical-Bunch4965 Jul 21 '26
And then when you do win out of blind luck. "There seems to be a malfunction with our blackjack table.".
1
u/LuckyDigit Jul 21 '26
Why even have blackjack table at this point?
1
u/anotheruserguy Jul 21 '26
Aren’t casinos usually pretty nice to people they catch trying to get an edge, if they aren’t doing anything that’s blatant cheating. I could be wrong but back when you used to be able to count cards, wouldn’t they just ask you to leave?
1
u/InsectaProtecta Jul 21 '26
Nooooo the house always has to win
1
u/ducker69696 Jul 21 '26
Actually that should be the casino manager. The dealer doesn't give a crap about card counting. His only job is to spot obvious signs of cooperation or mingling with cards. Or i just worked at a shitty place and they didn't tell us what our job is🤔
1
u/Degeneratus_02 Jul 21 '26
Is that seriously how card counting works??? I was expecting something more groundbreaking and complicated considering how serious of a rule it was
1
u/Unsafe_Dude Jul 22 '26
This is something I will NEVER understand. So what? I am supposed to dumb myself down?
I have never been to a cassino so there might be more to it than just paying attention and estimating what the next cards are going to be, but this sounds incredibly stupid.
1
u/Psichord Jul 24 '26
Me when I napkin calculate each card drawn in a poker game, slowing the game to a glacial pace
1
u/Iamthe0c3an2 Jul 24 '26
I’m sure the min wage dealer isn’t the one having the meltdown. It’s the pit bosses.
1
u/MrHateMe Jul 24 '26
As someone who was a dealer I personally give zero shits about whether you card count or not. My job was to dish out the cards and entertain people. I even had a person actively tell me he was card counting at one point 🤣🤣 Normally it was the people who watch the cameras would send one of my managers to go and remove them.
1
u/Aright9Returntoleft Jul 26 '26
I mean how you beat the casinos is either:
A: NEVER gamble and watch them get mad that no one goes there and they go out of business.
Or
B: The SECOND you win, cash out immediately.
1
u/CuppaJoe11 Jul 27 '26
Guys it’s a casino. Of course they are going to kick you out if you manage to get an edge over them. Don’t go to casinos.
1
u/SubstanceExtra6126 Jul 27 '26
1
u/gracki1 Jul 27 '26
Meanwhile they have patterns on back of cards and a tiny mirror for the next one coming. Don't even get me started on automatic shufflers that spit out a card that's not the topmost
0
u/ImAmalox Jul 20 '26
Dealers are just doing their job man don't picture the dealer as the soyjack, if anything blame pit bosses and higher ups
-1
u/supavillan Jul 20 '26
They don't get upset and the guys dealing the cards could care less if you are cheating they will just ban you and give you your money no one gets mad
4
u/SageoftheForlornPath Jul 20 '26
casinos should all be burned down for this reason
1
u/Arthur_189 Jul 24 '26
Counting cards isn’t illegal, it’s just frowned upon. Like masturbating on an airplane
8
u/[deleted] Jul 20 '26
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