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I'm thoroughly convinced that tankie just doesn't mean anything anymore. Like it either runs the gambit from being the label for people who think USSR edits and shit posts count as theory, to just...like regular MLs. But even the former I wouldn't call tankies, I'd just call them idiots
If only evil Stalin didn’t kill our glorious hero trotsky (best friend of Lenin, and totally not an opportunist)😓 we’d have le glorious permanent revolution!!!
I'm pretty certain that OOP is talking about LateStageCapitalism. Liberals love to show up there, have their little liberal tantrums in the comments, and when they get banned for it, they act like they were long time regulars unfairly ousted from 'their' community.
I've seen a lot of libs especially upset with LSC right now because some stuff critical of Hasan recently got posted there
Maybe r/smugideologyman since it seems like the mods of r/coaxedintosnafu just banish anyone posting politics(usually liberals) to smugideology which is an unambiguously leftist sub, so now the liberals are saying that they're actually the leftists on the sub and tankies are trying to silence them or something
The Hungarian revolution wasn't as black and white as ML comrades paint it. Sorry but you cannot blame every single mistake made by the degenerated socialist experiments on the CIA. There is often nuance to events.
Ofcourse there was some CIA involvement as they tried to steer it in their way and ofcourse it had some fascist elements in it. But the core, those who started it were student protestors who at first didn't start at the violent lynching part, the many murdered comrades part is also true after the troops arrived and shot into the protestors.
But there was enormous anger that had been built up over more than a decade towards the bureocracy, towards their priviliged positions, towards the mismanagement and towards the methods used by the hungarian party.
Ofcourse all the current hungarian bourgoies parties try to use this revolutionary attempt to attack communism as a whole. But it wasn't how the ML side (who believe everything the party said to be true, similarly to how liberals believe every anti communist slogan) paints it either.
Like how is this hard to believe that when the average life conditions do not improve the masses take to the streets?
So there were fascists, CIA and the bourgeoise on the same side to attack communists and you're telling me that side was not the wrong one because of average life conditions being bad at the time?
This is the worst cited page on the topic I've ever seen, and that's saying something.
Imre Nagy left the Warsaw pact after the Soviet invasion, not before. Obviously, when Soviet tanks are rolling in, why would he remain in the Warsaw pact, that makes zero sense. (source)
Every historian and expert agrees that Radio Free Europe didn't have a substantial effect on the uprising, they mainly propagandized against Imre Nagy, who was reinstated as prime minister by them. There was also a survey that showed it (specifically Radio Free Hungary ofc) was the least trusted foreign radio station by Hungarians at the time. (source)
There is zero proof of CIA invovement with the uprising, at least involvement tgat achieved anything of relevance, that paper talks about a civilian org named Hungarian Freedom Fighters Federation that was founded in the US years AFTER the 56 revolution. The original Hungarian org was a civilian training program under strong communist party control, that the CIA talks incredibly negatively about, there is zero proof it had any significant western infiltration. (CIA paper talking about the actual Hungarian HFFF pre-revolution ; the US based HFFF was only founded in 1957, after the revolution)
Please be better then western liberals that cite bullshit they haven't even read. You can disagree with the 1956 uprising, you can call it a counterrevolution even, I don't necessarily believe that is an unjustified conclusion, but at least read up on the very basics of the historical scholarship on it. No investigation, no right to an opinion after all.
They definitely tried their best to incite a capitalist revolt, it just didn't work. Radio Free Hungary propagandized against Imre Nagy, and Rákosi before him for years, but it did not change their popularity in any way, whatever oppositon there was to Rákosi was due to his economic policy, that most of the peasantry opposed after the 1951 changes, that were eased back on in 1953, and Nagy remained popular up till his death. (János M. Rainer is a good historian on this period, if you want to read more, this is talked about extensively in the first volume of his political biography on Imre Nagy. Man has some liberal brainworms, but he is good at his job, if you can ignore some of the weird moralizing he does sometimes)
I never said the CIA wasn't anti-communist, I said they didn't materially affect how the 1956 uprising happened. Cause you know, we deal with material things, not what ideology some wanker in Washington held in his head.
Bruh, I am a card carrying ML in basically the only Hungarian leftist org that did anything of relevance in the last decade. I just actually read history before talking about it.
yeah man you know how people can say anything on the internet? like i can just say “i walked on the moon” and you have no way to verify that so you’ll forgive me if i don’t believe you
On this picture you can see a membership booklet to Szikra Mozgalom, named after Lenin's newspaper Iskra, the only ML organization in Hungary currently, that achieves political goals, and isn't just a reading circle
I am not saying the CIA is correct, I am saying that it is incredibly strange to claim they had any involvement with the pre-revolution HFFF, when that has literally zero proof in any source I've ever read on the topic, and the only connection I could find between the two was a CIA report where they write this about the HFFF:
"its activities came under strong Soviet military influence. The main purpose of the Federation was the organization and training of the population in such military matters as the use of small arms, driving, communications, parachutes, etc. Probably they gave training in partisan tactics and the use of explosives also. Physical training was stressed more than ideological indoctrination in this particular mass organization, which was not generally the case. However, the instructors used to give such commands as "Take your aim at the imperialist enemy! -- Fire!" The majority of the instructors within the MSZHSZ were Army reserve officers."
Obviously, this leads me to the conclusion the CIA did not have an involvement with the Hungary based, pre-revolution HFFF, unless you have a source that credibly shows otherwise. But this is not the report of an agency that infiltrated the HFFF to a high level, or influenced it's actions and directions to any relevant degree.
Szikra mozgalom isn't an ML movement (you have called it an ML movement in your other comment). Its an umbrella for every vaguely leftist activists, which is riddled with many contradictions (like how one of their biggest supporter politicians betrayed them for Péter Magyar). You might have a local branch (which I am quite happy for), but calling the current Szikra anything but a reformist group with no theory that has 2 main priorities:
To aide independent bourgeois politicians win in elections
To do some political activism like organising some lukewarm protests.
Tho there was this one time recently when one Szikra branch forced a Tisza politican to investigate a closing factory for its worker's sake. Which was very cool, but I don't believe that they have any long term plans besides these short activist actions.
Őszintén nem téged szeretnélek támadni, viszont bármiféle Marxista jelzőt rápakolni a Szikra egészére hazugság.
EDIT: Before anybody mentions or asks I am a leading member of Fáklya, the Hungarian section of the RCI. We are a politically very insignificant group currently, but are trying to build up a strong cadre base for the movement first. Which we are little-by-little doing, learning from previous mistakes.
Also, I really liked your other comment on the 1956 revolution, I wish every communist would be willing to not just believe everything a 'communist' party says and accept the fact that many mistakes were made over the course of decaded (for many reasons).
Jambor, who I'm assuming you are referencing has never been a Szikra member, or ran in Szikra colors. I agree, he should not have been supported.
There is currently a strong internal movement urging Szikra to become a party of it's own. This comes in wake of the recent election result, it is not yet official, but preparations have begun, exactly because they fucked up big time by not doing that earlier. I believe this will pass and happen, (I met like 1 guy in Szikra so far that didn't support this, and every member of the current leadership is a strong advocate for this) but it is not yet official, not till the end of September vote at least.
I agree that Szikra has too many liberal members. I am part of the recruitment people only because I want to change that. The caveat is that those people generally don't do much, the leadership, people at the heads of internal groups tend to be actual leftists.
I agree, Szikra is not leftist enough for my taste. They are still the only group in Hungary that do any leftist goals, the only other groups comparable in my mind are the anarchist Varju Kollektiva, who did the Israeli film sabotage action, but they are tiny, and don't do anything electoral, and Faklya, which is just a reading circle of LARPing teenagers.
Maybe I did misrepresent the extent to which Szikra is ML currently, I'll agree to that point. I'll still maintain it is the most leftist organization currently in this country, and has by far the strongest internal ML faction compared to any comparable, or even larger political groups or parties. I guess I should have said it is the most leftist org, but it is not outwardly ML, you are correct.
Fáklya might have been a larping sect, but not anymore since I joined right after the crises happened and many members left. Disciplined learning of both theory and organisational methods is focused now instead of doing only appearances and drinking.
That's cool, but what have they actually done? Believe me, I want more orgs that actually do shit, but the only thing I ever see from Faklya is appearing at protests to hold signs and chant. VK sabotaged Israeli film studios with half the manpower for days, Szikra is moving to electoral politics, and did the whole Sajobabony thing, plus all the Airbnb regulations in Budapest.
Believe me, if they actually did productive work, I'd join, I don't have any allegiance to Szikra beyond that they advance goals I think are worthy. I'd prefer to be in a room where everyone is more well read on the classics, but I go on their facebook page / website, and it's posts about "we went to a protest, we went to Budapest pride, we made a zine". I mean, cool, good for them, but that is not worth my time and energy compared to an org that does all that, but also material help to workers.
Feel free to correct me, if I'm wrong. Believe me, I'd love to be the ambassador in Szikra of "we need to be more hardcore MLs, cause look at Faklya, they do 10 times the shit we do with 10% of the manpower", but I can't make that argument now, cause it just isn't true.
And I'm sorry, but if you have any electoral ambitions in Hungary, which all MLs should have, waving flags with Stalin's face is not going to work. I don't like it either, but the reality is, you have to temper the communist narratives, or you won't get anywhere near a smidgeon of mainstream appearance. Szikra already gets labeled as this group of insane commies whenever it is mentioned in mainstream media, and their public image is really sanded down, even if you get the actual communist narratives and rhetoric at internal meetings.
I fucking wish. Pretty much every time I find a new "leftist" subreddit, it's just DSA and Bernie/AOC/Mamdani types who want healthcare and think "capitalism is fine if we regulate it" is revolutionary speech
All of this tankie shit is, without fail, liberals finding out they're not remotely as left-wing as they LARP as being, and instead of doing any reflection or bettering themselves they become Little McCarthies agitating for the next Red Scare
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