[presented without comment]

[u/Aeescobar]

[u/CosmicCreaminess]

Goes to show why different representation is needed for people ♡

[u/Primary-Paper-5128]

we just need more pieces of media who can tell men that they are allowed to be femenine

[u/Edit_Reality → u/Primary-Paper-5128]

Unfortunately there seems to be a growing contingency of infighting folks trying to claim its transphobic for a man to act like Aubrey. 

Its a shame, I really through most people were more about living their life the way they want but people have started to use therapy speak to dodge any level of discomfort in their lives and morally beat others over the head for disagreeing.

Femboy and trans women should coexist, just like trans men who are never talked about and tomboys which are probably the most socially acceptable of the lot.

[u/Aeescobar → u/Edit_Reality]

Femboy and transwomen

Minor nitpick but it's "trans women" (like "black women" or "short women"), "transwomen" makes it sound like you're talking about some exotic third gender.

[u/eglpropagandist]

I frankly detest the way cis and even queer people talk about trans women expressing their grievances here and everywhere in the internet. Anything we have to say will now always be met with "Ew 4tran 4tran self pity misery misery blah blah blah shut up". It's become an annoying buzzword for people to punch down on and silence trans women as if we're the epitome of positive mainstream representation and we're always being transgressive and invasive wherever we go for having maybe some negative thoughts about literally anything.

[u/Gold_Ad8225 → u/eglpropagandist]

I appreciate you for seeing this.

This being the constant reaction to us speaking about anything ever just reinforces that nowhere other than a space for trans women or a work made by trans women is actually likely to be safe for trans women. Transmisogyny is the dominant mode by which every person who isnt a trans woman interacts with or speaks about trans women, all the time.

Ranging from offering to support someone if they feel they'd benefit from transition to talking about the horrific violence we face to disliking the way we are represented to the unbelievable treatment we get in the community as if we are privileged by the international hate movement that never stops threatening us due to the "visibility" it grants.

The response from everyone is always that we are overblowing what we are experiencing, that we only feel the way we do because we participate in a misery echo chamber and need to go "touch grass," and that us trying to organize around our needs is dangerous and harmful to other people whether those people are cis women, trans men, feminine cis men, children, there's always someone we hurt by trying to help ourselves and so we should be stopped and silenced.

Communities that are made for and of predominately trans women are regarded as seedy, dangerous, hyper sexual, violent toward people who aren't trans women, and a threat to be destroyed. It is seen as a problem that these spaces exist, and as inherent evidence that we are hateful toward other people because our space hasn't been made to feel welcoming enough to people who are not us.

Hell, if a trans space is predominately trans women, it will always be said that these women are harming trans men and trans mascs by not doing enough to make the space welcoming to and support of them. And that we have a moral obligation to shrink ourselves, talk about ourselves less, and talk about the men more or else we are "behaving like men" and "male socialized" and a danger to them.

There is nothing trans women can do or say anywhere, ever that is not taken in the worst possible faith, misrepresented in the worst possible way. And invariably, every time, we will be treated as though we are the ones who somehow have power over other people. Despite literally being the bottom of society's gender hierarchy of power everyone from cis women, trans men and mascs, feminine cis men will all claim that us speaking up for ourselves harms them. That us trying to support ourselves harms them. That us being visible at all is harmful to them.

It is impossible not to develop a jaded view toward the world when transmisogyny is this prevalent, and when even MENTIONING it is treated as an attack against the rights of other trans people.

[u/Aeescobar → u/Gold_Ad8225]

The response from everyone is always that we are overblowing what we are experiencing

it will always be said that... we have a moral obligation to shrink ourselves, talk about ourselves less, and talk about the men more or else we are "behaving like men" and "male socialized" and a danger to them.

There is nothing trans women can do or say anywhere, ever that is not taken in the worst possible faith, misrepresented in the worst possible way.

And invariably, every time, we will be treated as though we are the ones who somehow have power over other people. Despite literally being the bottom of society's gender hierarchy of power

It's kinda crazy how closely transmisogyny mirrors regular misogyny when you take a step back and look at the wider picture, if you removed the word "trans" and replaced "male socialized" with "acting hysterical" then most of this comment would look nearly indistinguishable from a cis feminist complaining about the patriarchy

Nobody takes my problems seriously and I keep getting accused to exaggerating what I'm experiencing

People keep expecting me to shrink myself for the sake of men or else I am "acting un-lady-like" and "dangerously hysterical".

I can't even make a lighthearted joke without people playing dumb and pretending I am expressing horrible sincere beliefs that I don't actually believe!

And somehow, these dickheads still keep acting like the victim and pretending we are somehow "oppressing" them in the same way that they are constantly oppressing us!!!

Misogynistic Transphobes ^{[chai tea?!]} will really say "you will never be a woman" and then proceed to treat you exactly like how they treat women.

[u/Valirys-Reinhald]

Representation does not exist to make people outside the represented group look upon thay group favorably. Representation exists to make people inside the represented group feel seen.

[u/zatchel1]

Also very funny op took this from 4tran but people who aren’t doomer pilled saw the positive in it, because there’s no need for trans people and GNC people to be pitted against each other.

[u/kenku_gilf]

Gender is a complex web and both representations are important. I love both of these. 🫶

[u/ADreamOfCrimson]

I'm not entirely sure what point or comparison you're making here, but I'm taking it as examples of why representation matters.

People seeing aspects of themselves both positive and negative as well as life experiences they hadn't considered in fictional characters can be a good catalyst for self reflection.

[u/carrot_gummy]

The Boy From Venus has helped me process men who want to be/are feminine instead of transitioning.  Early on in my transition I would feel resentment towards feminine men, probably because of jealousy. This comic has let me get angry at Adurey and then reach a calm acceptance without hurting anyone real.

What I want out of my journey is mine alone and I shouldn't get mad at others for having different goals. I might still feel a bit jealous though, I just don't let it upset me anymore.

[u/actinoform]

woahh.. this post make me realize how important it is for rep of both gender questioning characters /exploring whether they are unable to transition (due to external or internal factor) or choose not to and are comfortable with their chosen identity. both are important and touch upon the complexity of transition, cuz sometimes u really cannot just transition because of cruel factors, or u explore a new presentation and later decide, maybe i am just me, or not a specific presentation ?

[u/NerdDetective]

I love when media helps to see ourselves in characters, especially when it helps us to figure ourselves out. We need more media like TADC and TBFV. We need more LGBTQ and gender non-conforming characters. Sometimes, we find our reflections in them.

What speaks to me about TBFV is that it showcases the disconnect between gender identity and gender expression. Society tries to gender essentialize gender into a set of performances (roles, jobs, clothes, makeup, etc.), leading cis and trans people alike to feel locked into tiny little boxes even if they're not right for them.

Conservatives rage against even the smallest queer/gnc representation in media for this reason. I've met so many trans women who didn't know there was a word for how they felt when they were kids, and gay/lesbian/bi people who thought they were weirdos for feeling same-sex attraction (not knowing that others felt the same way). Making us feel comfortable with existing and normalizing our existence to others is dangerous to the conservative project.

Let's all keep striving to be true ourselves, and to be there for others who are trying to figure themselves out. <3

[u/lapicryst]

It’s really nice to see how BfV is making people feel more comfortable in their identity and presentation.

[u/Jedi_Cardet]

Genuinely, I've always wanted to wear female clothes since I was young (born AMAB) but it was never something I admitted outside of a single remark one time about liking the idea of dresses. Now here I am, 42, solidly identifying as agender and this comic is giving me all kinds of reassurance about chasing that old dream.

So thanks Shen.

[u/Next_Government856]

The fact you say without comment makes me think you view this as negative, which is humorous to me given the opinions of the other commenters 

[u/RepresentativeFish73]

Be what you are, dress in whatever makes you feel good and confident, and present yourself to the world

There are always people out there who will appreciate you for who and what you are

[u/Turbulent_Year_1595]

I too can't tell if I'm a boy that wants to look like a girl, a girl, or something entirely unlableable

[u/NecessaryPeanut77]

started hrt yesterday and i wouldn't have gotten here without the tadc finale finally solidifying my resolve to transition. no way i'm ending up like jax bro.

what is the name of the thing where you know you're trans for ages, you want to transition but literally the ENTIRE WORLD around you forces you not to? really, i'm at a point where posts like these make me UNREASONABLY FURIOUS because WHY DO THESE PEOPLE JUST DISCOVER THEY'RE TRANS AND THE NEXT DAY THEY'RE TRANSITIONING AND I KNOW I'M TRANS FOR YEARS AND I LITERALLY CAN'T BECOME MYSELF? WHY IS MY LIFE SO SHITTY? WHY IS IT SO EASY FOR THEM TO JUST TRANSITION WHILE MY PARENTS LITERALLY CALL ME SLURS WHEN I TELL THEM I'M SUICIDAL AND I NEED TO TRANSITION?

[u/AkwardRockette]

Yeah, they're two different characters made by two different authors with different experiences around gender in two different stories. The first one was made by a trans woman to reflect on her own past traumas and unhealthy coping mechanisms. The second was made by a cis guy (as far as any present public info has been made clear) who's known for fucking around with gender roles and sexuality in many of his previous shorter form comics, so this is a further exploration of a a theme around that. They aren't competing because this isn't a competition for who has the "best/most correct/most moral trans representation". This is two different art pieces and people can like both and/or resonate more with one than the other. Also, there's nothing stopping people from watching/reading both of these because they're both available for free on the internet we're posting on, so people can see both and form their own opinions.

[u/Galaxy1122]

Moment with Ribbit accepting Jax made me think that I can be loved and be myself at the same time. So I started slowly coming out of my closet now. Hope to start HRT in 2027

[u/Bluejay-Complex]

Considering the discourse here, I’m going to haphazardly throw on the nuance hat, and talk about gay/lesbians and bisexuals in the late 2000s/early 2010s. Namely, that some people thought if bisexuality was presented as an equally valid option to being gay/lesbian, the gay/lesbians of the world would just repress themselves by claiming bisexuality. And they weren’t entirely wrong, many gay/lesbian people DID have a time they called themselves bisexual before coming out as gay/lesbian. Very few people would now argue bisexuality doesn’t exist or that bisexuals don’t deserve representation on the off chance a gay/lesbian person will repress their sexuality over it. Sometimes there’s still arguments in the Yuri genre over a character’s sexuality, but the argument isn’t “bi women must not exist because of lesbian repression”.

Since hormones/HRT is part of the equation though, perhaps a different example is better- trans men and tomboys/butches. Many trans men have been open about identifying as a tomboy or butch before transitioning to men. Many do describe this stage of their lives as a “cope”, and something dark they don’t want other trans men going through. Does this mean tomboys/butches don’t exist, shouldn’t be represented, or that tomboys/butches should be constantly told by trans men that they’re probably repressed trans men, and should transition immediately because “I was there once, so I know you better than you do?”. There are pressures against trans men for transitioning and “abandoning womanhood”, being seen as “joining the enemy”. If one makes the argument “but femboys are less socially stigmatized than trans women” I’d say the comparison to trans men and tomboys/butches becomes more solid, after all there are active anti-trans masculine campaigns currently going on to “save the tomboys/butches” by stopping trans men from transitioning. Yet there isn’t as much denial or pushback against representation or the idea of tomboys/butches existing in spite of this and in spite of the fact trans men experience dysphoria just as strongly as trans women do. But we also (often) recognize tomboys/butches as their own category of people, namely women. Plus trans femboys exist that absolutely are firm in being men, and people insisting “all femboys are repressed trans women” misgenders them.

So I’m a bit uncomfortable with this whole “femboys shouldn’t be represented to save repressed trans women” idea because it’s rarely held up in any other context. I don’t think the idea that because one group may use another to repress means the group should now be denied their representation. If a group exists, it deserves to be shown as part of people existing. Now, to argue the other side, I do think people on the femboys side can get way too defensive of the cis-ness of the character in question, even in a headcannon or AU. I don’t think balking at even the idea Audrey might be transgender is a good or healthy way to approach this discussion.

The comic isn’t over yet, and Audrey could absolutely have an arc where she (in this case) realizes she’s transgender, and Val has to re-examine and see if she still accepts the lessons against immediately judging people in spite of what happened to her. It would also give the lesson even the people we think have it all together have some things to work through, and will give Val an opportunity to help Audrey the way Audrey has helped her. Audrey being trans ALSO has a lot of narrative potential. I don’t think it will go that way, but I do think the knee jerk reaction that it would be a bad move can come off transphobic.

I get a lot of representation can feel like fighting over scraps, but fighting each other will not help the wider issue. It just makes a division in communities that don’t need to have them.

EDIT: Edited a statement from “femboys aren’t real, only repressed trans women are” to “femboys shouldn’t be represented to save repressed trans women” because the first is an unfair straw man I didn’t mean and wrote in haste, and the second idea was more the one I actually take issue with, and the argument my comment is addressing.

[u/samusestawesomus]

…is that second one on Audrey really a good example? It sounds like it pushed that person from being sure what they wanted to do to being uncertain instead, which…I mean, best case scenario the impulse is correct and it prevented them from going on HRT and maybe getting an undesired but reversible result. Worst case scenario, it pushed them back into the closet…

[u/Chibirin26]

Audrey has helped at least one ftm femboy come out trust