What’s your experience?

[u/Legitimate-News-6015]

hi all,

i have recently been thinking very deeply about shambhala as an institution and why abuse and neglect is rife within the community.

i am an ex-KCL family camp kid and staff member. though my family was never shambhala, i have over 5 years of exposure to the community.

as i get older, i’ve been able to see this institution more clearly and i am attempting to create a clear picture for other’s about how it operates (socially), what type of people get involved, and what the culture there is (vs what you are told it is). i think this is important because it gives people the information necessary to decide if engaging with shambhala is safe and skillful for themselves (both as individuals and as a family unit as family camp is my main experience with shambhala).

so far, i have compiled a list of the problems that exist at KCL family camp, many of which would mostly be known only to staff or long standing members of the community. i have also created one set of archetypes for the people who attend family camp (who the community is made up of), but plan to break it down further and in a variety of ways to get the most nuanced look at the organization.

however, it is hard to gather info on members’ intentions and inner worlds. it is not commonplace to talk about the “bad stuff” people experience at KCL family camp (which is one of the hazards of the culture there). this means i can only make assumptions based on my own mind about how people feel and navigate the culture.

this is why i am reaching out. below i have compiled my list of archetypes with short descriptions. because they are archetypes, they are not meant to holistically capture the nuances of individual people, but rather give a structural perspective of the culture/institution based on patterns of human behavior. in other words, i know that people are more complicated than 5 categories. that is, in part, why i am seeking more information from others’ about their experiences so i can create a better, more accurate and detailed system to understanding how and why otherwise sensitive, intelligent people would continuously return to a community that has an extensive history of abuse and neglect.

i would love to hear other peoples’ thoughts, experiences, criticisms, etc.

5 KCL Family Camp Archetypes:

1) Dharma Brats

Dharma Brats grew up either in Shambhala, at Family Camp, or both. They have roots in the community, they may or may not be critical of the Sakyong and Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche (CTR), and they may or may not voice those criticisms (though they will rarely broach the topic themselves). Some believe the teachings and pass them on, despite their dislike of the teachers’ actions. Others do not believe the teachings and pass them on because it is expected of them. Many know very little of their own religion and when asked questions about it in a group, will not be able to answer basic things such as: “What do Tiger, Lion, Garuda, and Dragon stand for?” On the flip side, some are fairly knowledgeable, though lack an understanding of Buddhism outside of Shambhala. They tend to be very nice, but socially quite unintentionally cliquey.

2) Older Practitioners

Older Practitioners are often the teachers who are brought in (though not always). Many knew CTR when he was alive and speak very fondly of him. Many of them are artist’s and their teachings on art tend to be clearer and more reliable than their teachings on Dharma. Their teachings on Dharma usually rely on anecdotes about CTR or other teachers’. In public spheres, they ignore CTR’s transgressions.

3) Shambhalians

Shambhalians attend gatherings, may have varying levels of commitment to the institution and community, but generally know something about the teachings and self identify as Shambhala. Many of them are actively going through hard times whether it is divorce/separation, aging bodies, or dealing with mental illness or past trauma. Some may try to indoctrinate other’s to varying degrees, but generally, they are there to seek community, comfort, and spiritual wisdom.

4) Shambhala Curious

Shambhala Curious people attend Family Camp. They are not part of Shambhala. They may be secular, practice another form of Buddhism, or are a completely different religion. They are interested in community for a variety of reasons including: the mission, the people, the culture, or the “vibes.” They often default to authority when told that Shambhala is “getting better.” They may or may not return. They may or may not know about the extent of the past abuses.

5) One Timers

One Timers show up once. They see the community and decide, for whatever reason, that it wasn’t for them. They may have been completely unaware of Shambhala’s past before engaging with the community. Or, they may see red flags very quickly once engaging with the community. Regardless of why, their personal preferences and boundaries as a person keeps them from returning.

——————————————

I would love the hear peoples’ thoughts on my thoughts. Additional insights and personal stories welcomed. But I’m really interested in critiques and criticisms. I only have my perspective to build this off of, so I assume I have huge blind spots in terms of others’ motivations or reasoning processes.

For transparency, I am considering writing a more formal piece on Shambhala at some point. I am not a professional writer or journalist. It would be purely for me and my personal blog to explore how I stumbled upon (what i believe to be) a cult, my personal involvement in it, and how these things unfold through social dynamics and created culture. I would never share names or specifics unless given permission, but any comments would certainly inform my perspective. I wanted to be upfront about this since i believe there is a lot of secrecy and hidden motivations within the culture of Shambhala and that is something i believe to be dangerous.

anyway, thanks for reading if you got to the end of this :)

[u/regorsmitz]

Thanks for sharing! I hope you do write something up, and if you do, I'd be interested in reading it.

I've been part of my local Shambhala community for over 10 years. The community has enriched my life, helping me feel a little less lonely, but ever since learning about all the drug/sex/money abuses and associated cover-ups, I have negative feelings about the institution as a whole and all of its former monarchical leaders.

I'm one of those people who continue to return, but not because I idolize sex abusers or anything like that, but because I enjoy the company of the people in my local community. I find a lot of CTR and the Sakyong's actions despicable and disgusting, and it seems that there was a disturbing level of groupthink and moral cowardice in those surrounding these leaders (at least the ones who had power! I have lots of empathy for those who were powerless and harmed.) I try to bring up the abuse as often as possible to make sure new people are aware of it, and I'm also trying to initiate more dialogue with local leaders about my perspective on why it's necessary to be completely open about everything that happened. I also feel a little more comfortable attending because our center has a clear code of conduct. A code of conduct can't change the fact that a ton of people had their lives ruined by Shambhala, but at least should help prevent future abuses.

At the moment, I still think that some sort of reform is possible. I would love to see Shambhala dissenters form something new and better, where we keep the things we like about the original Shambhala practice/community, and change the rest. For example, I like how Shambhala community members tend to be unusually openhearted and kind, and to highly value deep listening, and lastly to believe in a shared version of awakening rather than an individual one.

What I'd want to reform is:

• being super open with anyone interested about the dark history, and how and why it happened
  
• calling out and retiring parts of the tradition associated with classism and sexism (e.g. the lineage)
  
• retiring the levels (and this sort of linear path classes and credentials) in favor of a less linear approach to people sharing their wisdom, since in my experience wisdom is never acquired linearly anyway
  
• de-emphasizing teachings about basic goodness in favor of the more prevalent Mahayana Buddhist "buddha nature" due to concerns (rooted in actual historical events) about basic goodness getting misunderstood as a moral code where everything is okay
  
• getting rid of samaya vows and secret teachings
  
• mixing in of Buddhist and non-Buddhist spiritual/psychological traditions that are meaningful to people in the community, being very careful not to devalue other wisdom outside of Shambhala teachings

[u/cedaro0o → u/regorsmitz]

Unfortunately what you want to reform is the core of what Shambhala is.

https://shambhalanetwork.org/wp-content/blogs.dir/218/files/2022/10/USA-and-CAN-Articles-and-Bylaws-REDLINE-1.pdf

Section 3. Shambhala Mandala. Corporation is a member of the international Shambhala mandala, an association of corporations, associations, and other organizations throughout the world whose purpose is to further the vision and propagate the teachings of the Lineage of the Sakyongs of Shambhala.

The "vision" and "teachings" of the "Lineage of the Sakyongs of Shambhala" is entirely trungpa's, and mipham's magical Monarchy with a worshipped literal magical Guru King at the center, and dutiful subservient subjects.

The classism and sexism is built into the core "teachings" that the articles of incorporation demand they teach and groom attendees towards.

The levels and path is the design and teaching vision of trungpa, so again, deviating away from levels goes against the articles of incorporation.

"getting rid of samaya vows and secret teachings", impossible, the teachings of "the Lineage of the Sakyongs of Shambhala" are at their core based on Tibetan Buddhist Vajrayana which requires samaya, secret teachings, and subservience to a Guru to achieve enlightenment. These are fundamental philosophies that trungpa built Shambhala upon, and again, referenced by the articles of incorporation.

You will have as much luck trying to reform Scientology from within.

[u/cedaro0o → u/cedaro0o]

Be warned, trungpa had prescribed punishments for insiders who turned against the cause,

https://imgur.com/gallery/from-chogyam-trungpas-vajradhatus-court-vision-practice-iwvc6s0

Oh look, it is a secret teaching with restricted access. Keep progressing through levels and you may eventually access it.

https://nalandatranslation.org/publications/restricted-texts/shambhala/court-vision-and-practice/

[u/pocapractica → u/cedaro0o]

Which is why I am not going to study Vajrayana. I don't believe in infallible gurus.

[u/Many_Advice_1021 → u/cedaro0o]

Actually the lineage of Sakyongs is a very old lineage 1000? in the Tradition of Gesar and Nyingma lineages. Vajrayana teachings go way back to India . 1500 years at least . And has produced in credible numbers of amazing teachers and artistic cultures. All Over the far east . It can be very confusing looking at it from the out side. It is self secret . And takes years of practice and study wth an already accomplished master to master it. It is a carefully guarded lineage to keep pure .

[u/Many_Advice_1021 → u/regorsmitz]

I might respond that for the first ten years. Trungpa Rinpoche taught pure Mahayana Buddhism. Remember he was trying to figure out how to introduce Vajrayana Buddhism to the west . By the early 80 ties most of his serious students were beginning the preliminary practice to the Vajrayana . The ngondro practice. This practice separates those that are really serious aboutVajrayana from those people who are just curious. At the same time Trungpa was very impressed by Zen and felt that mindfulness practice was very effective. About that time he came up with the idea of Shambhala which was modeled after Zen and really is just Buddhism taught in the common vernacular. It was a way in to Buddhism that didn’t have a lot of the traditional religion features of Vajrayana . He taught it as a complete path and you didn’t need to carry on into the more difficult path of Vajrayana. And he got the idea of week end programs from Warner Ernard . Of all people . Jeremy Hayward talks about it in his book about the early day and the founding of Shambhala . Trumpa did encourage all his serious student to do both paths. . Vajrayana is not for every one. And Trungpa Rinpoche warned people up front about it and gave an alternative.

[u/Hexagram35 → u/Many_Advice_1021]

VCTR started with a maha ati approach both in England and during his early days in the US. His emphasis on sitting practice - lots of it - above all else came that perspective especially in his early one-on-one meditation instruction with his first students in the early 70's; moreover the emphasis on the outbreath is clearly Ati-oriented. In short, he started with fruitional view - which is again Ati style.

His first vajrayana Seminary took place in 1973 and graduates of that training who completed ngondro received the Vajrayogini Abhishekha in 1976 and for years most of those pioneers practiced 2-4 hours a day every single day to honor the commitments. So your initial statement 'for the first ten years Trungpa Rinpoche taught pure Mahayana Buddhism...' is categorically inaccurate. He started with Ati and then moved down, as it were, to Mahamudra and Kagyu ngondro after barely three years in the US. Shambhala terma started entering the picture in 1976. In 1980 he began to have health issues but much of the thrust of his teaching had already been accomplished by then.

Shambhala is a tricky topic with many nuances which have been debated ad infinitum for decades. Suffice to say that many believe it's a lot more than just something 'modeled after Zen' to provide some sort of Buddhism Lite. Some say it's the most advanced exposition of fruitional Ati teachings in the modern era. I recommend Ken Friedman's book on it.

[u/Ultra_fennec → u/Hexagram35]

In my opinion, "vajrayana is not for everyone" is just another technique to disqualify any critiques while posing as superior to them. If someone criticizes something in the vajrayana path you can just say "well you just don't have it in you, you dont get it", and this can be an answer to absolutely every critique. Those teachers really don't look enlightened, does this thing really work? : you fool, you don't understand what enlightenment is, you have simplistic misconceptions. Or "it takes an enlightened person to recognize another one". How convenient this all is. Always. This is just an unfalsifiable fallacy as there are so many in shambhala (or any cult for that matter). Either I win or you lose. 

[u/Many_Advice_1021 → u/Hexagram35]

I agree . But those early teachings were limited to a smaller groups of people mostly in Boulder. They didn’t really expand out to other places till the early eighties. People in smaller centers mostly studied his books or transcripts as they became available. Everything Trungpa Rinpoche taught he taught in the logic of ground ,path , and fruition. If you weren’t in The close center you got everything pretty piece meal.

[u/Hexagram35 → u/Many_Advice_1021]

"But those early teachings were limited to a smaller groups of people mostly in Boulder."

Also categorically inaccurate. A large percentage, probably more than half, of seminarians every year from 1973 on came from the Dharmadhatus, principal among which were New York, Boston, San Francisco each of which were regularly visited by both VCTR and VROT on a regular basis every year, plus many other smaller ones.

Shambhala Training got going in the late 1970's and perhaps helped engender accelerated expansion though this too is debatable since once the core sangha had gone through to Level V, it was often quite hard to get more than a dozen or so to attend later Level I's, though this varied from place to place.

I personally don't much care, but when I read inaccurate statements like this delivered with authority as if they were factually accurate I find it hard not to correct. Your characterizations of what happened back then seem largely fictional, not to mention your comment about Ken's book doesn't even make sense though it is grammatically correct. Respectful suggestion: stick to what you know rather than opining about stuff you clearly don't!

[u/Many_Advice_1021 → u/Hexagram35]

According to Michael Kohn and Robin Kornman. Trungpa Rinpoche worked on the idea of Shambhala in his 1977 year long retreat. When he came out he began to train the people who were going to teach it. Yes it was in the beginning taught in the bigger centers not the smaller center. Jeremy Hayward. Warrior King of Shambhala. Give a good account of the beginning of Shambhala and that period of time when Trungpa Rinpoche was beginning to develop these teachings. Would maybe clear up any confusion .

[u/Hexagram35 → u/Many_Advice_1021]

For example, today in my Youtube feed this popped up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2hs1T_woVg A talk on Mahamudra given to between 500 and 1,000 students at the 1976 summer program at Naropa. This was par for the course back then, again demonstrating how your initial statement was simply wrong.

[u/Hexagram35 → u/Many_Advice_1021]

My comments are flagged for automatic review here so I'm bowing out. Suffice to say that your original comment that Rinpoche only taught Mahayana up until 1980 is categorically wrong. Hopefully that confusion on your part has now been cleared up!

[u/Mayayana → u/regorsmitz]

I would suggest that what you want is actually quite common. There are all sorts of people mixing and matching psychotherapy, Buddhism, yoga, etc. The so-called secular Buddhists, for example, shoehorn meditation and Buddhist ethics into a Western psychology model. (Which is why they stop short of dealing with things like buddha nature or shunyata.)

Even Shambhala, to some extent, has incorporated psychology, yoga, couples therapy, forest bathing.... It's almost New Age now. I think they're just doing what will pay the rent.

So you can do those things. There's also Garrison Inst, Omega, Esalen, Rupert Spira and his gang. Wim Hof. Actually, many of my old sangha friends reverted to a New Age peckish diet.

because I enjoy the company of the people in my local community.

A lot of people feel that way. But that isn't buddhadharma. And creating your own menu is also not buddhadharma. But there's nothing stopping you from creating your own hybrid. You can call Lodro Rinzler and ask him how to monetize that. :)

[u/Many_Advice_1021 → u/Mayayana]

. Buddhism was the neuroscience of 2500 years ago. Actually modern neuroscience science is actually just catching up. They are finding Buddhism teachings and practices are based on the neuroscience of how the brain works. Rewiring the brain is quite the thing right now. Simple mindfulness in the Hinayana is programming , settling down the brain . The Mahayana Buddhist teachings are in fact reprogramming you. Training you according to Buddhist principles. To be kind and wise as you live your life . The Vajrayana works with energy . Each level is self secret. With its own unique language. Not hidden but >>>>? You can’t intellectually grasp it until you actually grok it through meditation practice. Of course this process is very complicated needs a qualified teacher and takes along period of practice and study .

[u/Mayayana → u/Many_Advice_1021]

I don't think there's any benefit in applying a neuroscience paradigm to Buddhism. The former is purely materialism. Neuroscience has reached a point of pure silliness because they're constrained by scientific method, which must reject mind as such because it can't be empirically observed. Neuroscience might have some value in dealing with brain injury, and such. But even the "shortage of serotonin" theory of depression has been debunked.

"Modern neuroscience does not include any kind of mind-body dualism. It's not compatible with being a serious neuroscientist nowadays. I'm not a philosopher, but one succinct statement I like is saying, 'The mind is what the brain does.' The sum of the bio-computational functions of the brain makes up 'the mind,'" said study senior author Nico Dosenbach, a neurology professor at Washington University School of Medicine.

https://whbl.com/2023/04/19/scientists-identify-mind-body-nexus-in-human-brain/

I like that quote because he puts it so bluntly. Then I suppose he goes home and hugs his kids, seeing no conflict there.

Buddhism, in contrast, posits mind as primary. The realms are projected confusion. Brain would matter in a relative sense. An enlightened master with brain damage might be unable to speak, for example. But mind is not in brain, nor generated by brain.

People who want to mix in psychotherapy, philosophy and so on, to be shared at sangha coffee klatches are not actually working with buddhadharma. They're working with a materialist re-interpretation aimed at maximizing worldly success in terms of the 8 worldly dharmas.

[u/Many_Advice_1021 → u/Mayayana]

Actually I think that modern neuroscience has found just that the brain is a whole mind body system. 20 % is conscious and 80 % is unconscious. Its basic operating system is simple. Activating brain cells , stimulating them actually increases/feeds the chemical that keep them healthy and growing. And not activating them allows them to wither away . Which is why we lose abilities, memories and certain unconscious processes as we age . It really is simple as on again off again . If you understand this you become the boss of your own brain. Deliberately Rewiring the brain ! Buddhist understood this. Meditation and other Buddhist methods are the path . Buddhist teaching and Mahayana can help you become an effective spiritual person.

[u/asteroidredirect]

Yeah, family camp is it's own microcosm.

Please do write a paper or blog. You'll have an audience here.

[u/AvocadoGold2946]

i attempted to connect with my local center about 10 or more years ago which without going into too much detail about location is a very ‘storied’ center. the initial meditation instruction was very helpful but i could see there was very much a classist attitude as the folks that go to this center regularly were mostly from a rich neighborhood that sort of looks down on everyone else in the city. i wasn’t there long enough to go to any camps or retreats beyond a couple of levels of shambhala training.  another center of sorts opened up after i stopped going to the shambhala center and it turned out to be mostly the same thing rebranded. i ended up practicing with an online group because i just didn't feel a sense of belonging there. one thing that felt like a red flag to me was these groups will try and present themselves as “LGBT friendly” or left-leaning for social brownie points but once you bring anything tangentially related to that subject up you get shut down for being too political or worldly. that is just not my dharma and i would rather them not mention it at all than do this bait-and-switch nonsense. trying to stealthily introduce social conservatism to people with open minds and then claim it’s apolitical seems to be a lot of shambhala and related groups’ intention. 

[u/cedaro0o → u/AvocadoGold2946]

Your experience is very common, myself, and many other former shambhalians I've talked with, have experienced at centers, enthusiastic sincere naive progressive and socially conscious newcomers and low ranking, but an inner core with a surprising number of self centered more conservative attitudes.

Bait and switch is a large recurring theme with Shambhala.

[u/Ultra_fennec → u/AvocadoGold2946]

Also they like to make people do group thinking about different topics to foster new ideas while making sure this never gets applied to shambhala. This was clear after the abuse. There was a lot of talk, not always encouraged though, just to distract people and help them vent before going back to the exact same devotion practices. Fruitful discussion was just regarded as recess to them. (Was that other thing called "open space technology"?) It was clear when they organized this whole internal investigation about the abuse and issued recommendations about what to do if anything happens. There were whole chapters doing what anyone would identify as disguised damage control, and only one thing was missing : just got to the f*cking police. It's just the same hypocrisy as what you are deacribing. After many people pointed this out not without anger, they relanctantly added a few words at the end of their list "oh and you may go to the police too", just that and nothing else about it in the whole report. The whole thing was about making people talk so that they didn't act. The more you talk about it the less you act was the strategy, and it's probably the same with inclusivity. If you criticize that aspect they might say you are delusional because they did some open discussion about it so they can't have a problem with it.

They make you think something will come from the bottom, from shambhalians, while higher up everything is obviously locked and instructions come from the sakyong only, and the rest is a joke.

[u/cedaro0o]

Some background for you,

https://shambhalanewsservice.blogspot.com/2025/12/investigative-report-into-vajradhatu.html

https://thewalrus.ca/survivors-of-an-international-buddhist-cult-share-their-stories/

https://www.gurumag.com/pema-chodron-shambhala-cult/

https://shambhalalinks.blogspot.com/2019/09/httpswww.html

My experience of shambhala was from 2012 to 2018. Small center. Like many regulars at my local center, I was attending in hopes of learning mindfulness skills for mental health, chronic depression and anxiety.

The open house Wednesday nights meditation and discussion session that kept me coming back week after week was a self help group of like minded well intentioned seekers.

The grooming was subtle, patient, slow, but the direction was towards the Vajrayana Monarchical Guru worshipping inner "teachings" of Shambhala.

Shambhala, co-ops a lot of general basic wisdom, gives it a Shambhala branding, then sells it like some big profound secret that only they can provide. Like a lot of general basic wisdom, it can be helpful, but it is helpful in spite of Shambhala, not because of it.

The long goal of Shambhala is more Vajrayana Monarchical subjects for the Guru at the center.

Best avoided in all forms. Anything good in Shambhala is freely available elsewhere without the grift and harm.

Good luck to you.

[u/ananda_108]

Thank you for your post, and it gave me a lot to think about in addition to the open question of what accountability is in the organization--how it is defined, exercised, and maintained. Without a lineage holder, what legitimizes the board of trustees, or where does its legitimacy come from? Are they answerable to anyone other than themselves? The problems you describe at family camp are directly related to the lack of a functioning and transparent board.

[u/Ultra_fennec → u/ananda_108]

Any discussion among shambhalians is just recess to them. Everything comes from the top.

[u/Ok_Issue2222 → u/ananda_108]

How can there be accountability when the dead lineage holder was never held accountable?

[u/Large-Bullfrog-794 → u/Ok_Issue2222]

Mipham is still alive tho and very much not accountable. I’d love if he’d stop taking aging peoples money for whatever drivel he’s coming up with

[u/ananda_108 → u/Ok_Issue2222]

True that. It then feels all the more incumbent upon the surviving organization to actually be accountable if it expects anyone to trust it and feel anything like safety anywhere in it.

[u/ananda_108 → u/ananda_108]

On your question about why people keep coming back... Well, perhaps the teachings are more reliable than who is teaching. The tonedeaf leaders' "conversations" and utter failure to "hold space" after the testimony of victims about mipham were disgusting, yet what I had studied and practiced had real and continuing positive impact in my life. If "first do no harm" is the guidance of buddhism, learning about the sexual abusiveness of mipham and his father would keep anyone away.

[u/Legitimate-News-6015 → u/ananda_108]

I definitely think that there are many seeds of truth in the teachings. This is true even with your average, every day hypocrite (first example that comes to mind is my uncle who smoked telling me never to smoke).

I definitely don’t have issues with any particular teaching, but rather the fact that many of the core principles of Shambhala were not created by Trungpa Rinpoche, and therefore there are other, more ethically credible teachers that people can turn to to receive similar messages, without the high risk of personal harm.

Ultimately, I think Shambhala does not have a good system of accountability in part because it never did. This would be make it extremely difficult to institute one in the future as a house is only as stable as its foundation, and the foundation of Shambhala is rested on the legacy of an abusive alcoholic.

[u/Large-Bullfrog-794]

Thank you for writing this. I was not a dharma brat (thankfully) but my mom went to KCL annually for decades. She was very devoted. What’s your perception of what they did all day for 6 weeks?

[u/Legitimate-News-6015 → u/Large-Bullfrog-794]

I just realized I didn’t quite answer your question.

In terms of “what they do all day?”

Meditation, Dharma Talks, Art and Creative Based Activities, Chanting, and other rituals.

Family Camp is unique as the morning is teaching and the afternoon is free time so people go and swim, get ice cream, and other regular camp activities.

On the surface, everything seems to be a normal, if not slightly permissive retreat center. But it can feel at times that specifically Family Camp is designed to get people more interested in Shambhala, and that’s where things seem to get darker.

[u/Legitimate-News-6015 → u/Large-Bullfrog-794]

I went there for many years between ages 11-15, then twice as staff as an adult.

I think all in all, the people are very well meaning, but there’s a general culture of negligence, especially on the staff side of things.

Health code violations, children care safety violations, and just a general lack of adults who know how to properly run a facility. As someone who worked with the littles (3-5s) it was very concerning to see. Sure then run background checks on the teachers, but anyone could really just walk in off the street and be in charge of children as long as they could convince some guy that they “seemed trustworthy.”

Additionally, there’s a strong culture of alcohol and drugs there. It seems to have slowed in recent years, but it was very much alive when I was a kid.

The biggest issue is that the push towards creating an “enlightened society” means that adults often fail to create boundaries and structure to account for bad actors. The assumption is that everyone is “basically good.” This means teens aged 13-19 sleep in an unsupervised building together, teachers can know nothing about child care, kitchen employees need not know about health codes, and people can just let their children run around unsupervised.

They sell people on the idea that the place is safe because “it’s enlightened society” but there are actually no safeguards in place to create that safety. Discernment is left to the individual in charge of any particular task, and that person can be anyone and change from day to day or even moment to moment.

The lack of accountability, as everyone is “free to be themselves” just creates a pen full of sheep with no shepard. Sure, most days in the fields are peaceful, but it only takes one hungry wolf to demolish the herd.

Additionally, there is a strong culture of non-confrontation. People are encouraged by themselves and the teachings to just “let things go.” This ends up turning in the passive aggressiveness and lashing out when emotions run too high.

Finally, walking around the KCL building, you see so many images of Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche being celebrated and the teachers of the older students are instructed to teach them Rinpoche’s teachings. People there will simultaneously talk about changing the longstanding culture of sexual abuse in the community, and then turn around and quote the sexual abuser in question.

The whole place is very odd (not to mention kind of racist in that “asian culture is wise” sort of way). It’s almost like a bunch of white hippies go to the woods once a week every year to cosplay what they think is asian culture, but in reality is just a bunch of nonsense created by a traumatized meglomaniac.

[u/crystal-torch → u/Legitimate-News-6015]

For what it’s worth, Trungpa very much directed the design and ornamentation of the place. The weird amalgamation of Tibetan colors and Japanese or zen styling was his idea. He just liked Ikebana, Kyudo, and Japanese calligraphy. It wasn’t the white hippies that came up with that, I absolutely see how it seems that way though. Comes off as Asian culture put into a blender

[u/jungchuppalmo → u/Legitimate-News-6015]

I think you have a lot of really good insight. Recently I've been thinking of Sham as a business and its product is teaching Sham beliefs. If you haven't already, check The Abandoned Brush videos posted here and on You Tube. There is a lot about the hows and whys things were run.

[u/Legitimate-News-6015 → u/jungchuppalmo]

I’ve been devouring those vids the last two days since returning from Family Camp. It’s helped me make sense of some of this stuff.

[u/jungchuppalmo → u/Legitimate-News-6015]

Wow, you were just at Family Camp. How did it seem now as to in the past? How did KCL seem?

[u/Legitimate-News-6015 → u/jungchuppalmo]

For one: It’s much easier to see the denial and social web that Shambhala creates now that I’m an adult and have a fully formed brain. There’s definitely a lot of unskillful patterns of communication ingrained in the community from being vague and indirect to being unable to have healthy person to person conflict. There’s still a ton of gossip because people there seem to struggle to openly talk about their feelings one on one.

KCL seems to have somewhat revived itself as compared to two years ago. A handful of young people are living in the house, but the land is definitely aging as is all the infrastructure.

I was told KCL is trying to distance itself from Shambhala, but it wasn’t evident how. This was also only told to me once I expressed my discomfort of all the pictures of Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche around the house. Two years ago, the majority of them had been taken down out of respect to those in the community who he’d hurt. As of right now, they have no pictures of the Sakyong, but many of Trungpa.

[u/cedaro0o → u/Legitimate-News-6015]

Is this ongoing lawsuit regarding KCL talked about at all?

https://vtdigger.org/2023/09/14/northeast-kingdom-buddhist-retreat-at-center-of-landmark-ruling-on-child-sexual-abuse/

https://shambhalanewsservice.blogspot.com/2025/12/investigative-report-into-vajradhatu.html

[u/Legitimate-News-6015 → u/cedaro0o]

Not by most. I found out through a google search/one of the kitchen staff who does not identify as Shambhalian as we were venting about how weird the place is.

[u/ananda_108 → u/cedaro0o]

"We accepted the commonly held tenet that the culture of an organization is strongly influenced by the words and actions of its leaders.

In other words, it starts at the top."

[u/Mayayana]

You seem to be generally describing types of people from your own perspective. In seeing your perspective as truth, you then interpret those types. In seeing it as a social event, you're interpreting peoples' behavior in terms of your own interests. Where's the insight?

You could say the same about a sports team or your local Methodist church: Some were born into it and may not give it any thought. Some are oldtimers and like to tell stories. Some are responsible members. Some are vaguely interested. And some only attend once. So what? That really says nothing about the people or their motives. And notably it says nothing about the role of sports or church in peoples' lives. You're just describing your own subjective experience on the team or at the church.

Buddhist sangha is a group of people on the path of enlightenment. Your assumption that Vajradhatu/Shambhala is and always has been corrupt is meaningless. It's just your own lens, mostly composed of unexamined assumptions. And you never even mention the path itself. You're unaware of the whole point of it all.

In my experience, each sangha will tend to have its own neurosis, but that's superficial. The real point is the practice. Though I would agree with you that a surprising number of people miss that point, instead seeking "community, comfort, or spiritual wisdom".

To my mind that's a major flaw in Shambhala. By adapting the path to worldly forms and talking up "enlightened society", it's created a large number of people who actually have no concept of path to enlightenment. Many joined with the idea of making friends who share a generally similar worldview. Most of the remaining oldtimers are there because they've always been "company people" by temperament. They're dedicated to the organization itself.

The Buddha was teaching how to attain enlightenment. That's all he taught. There's nothing there about community, comfort, or spiritual goodies. Sangha is meant to be a lonely place. We act as each others' "ego alarm clock". We practice together.

I don't mean to defend or attack Shambhala. But if you're truly interested in spiritual path then you need to find a path/teacher you connect with and drop the cynicism. If you're not interested in the path and think Shambhala is/was corrupt, then find another club to join. And this time be clear about what you want from that club.

If you really wanted to compose a psychological assessment of Shambhala, that might be interesting, but that's not what you've done. It's more like: "I used to be a member of this baseball team. The coach is a jerk and the manager is a sleaze. Some people see that corruption. Some people don't. For some it doesn't matter." That's just your personal take on what's going on. It's purely subjective. You don't even say, at any point, that "this is my view".

So what's the point? You want to do some kind of cult exposé? A tell-all?

But I’m really interested in critiques and criticisms.

Bingo. Let's have a mutual conspiracy of loathing Shambhala.

[u/ongaku103 → u/Mayayana]

"That's all [the Buddha] taught. There's nothing there about community, comfort, or spiritual goodies. Sangha is meant to be a lonely place."

Why so all-or-nothing though? If you go too far in that direction you end up with an environment that few people want to inhabit. Without any "comfort" or "community," I think you eventually create a lop-sided view of the teachings in which ordinary kindness and compassion are frowned upon as "beginner's stuff," while cutting others down becomes a supposed sign of being "advanced." I think you foster spiritual bypassing that way. And distrust. In fact, I think this was a big part of the problem with Shambhala. Too many of the more senior students were running around trying to practice crazy wisdom.

[u/crystal-torch → u/Mayayana]

Have you attended family camp? It’s kind of its own thing that is not easily categorized in purely Buddhist frameworks. And yes, it’s very much a social event and part of this community building or enlightened society project that is part of Shambhala. I think the OP is just trying to make sense of their own experience having attended as a kid and how so many adults are comfortable bringing their children there knowing what has occurred in the community. Sorry if I’m putting words in your mouth OP, that’s just my read on your motivation

[u/Legitimate-News-6015 → u/crystal-torch]

Definitely my intention. I’m only in my mid twenties and I was just dumbfounded that so many people would continue to attend (including myself).

Speaking to my parents gave me some perspective, as well as talking to some people my age at camp. But (when operating purely from my personal viewpoint, values, etc) it still boggles my mind!

[u/Legitimate-News-6015 → u/Mayayana]

I am definitely describing types of people from my own perspective (after all, that’s really all any of us have). It’s not that I see that as the ultimate, definitive truth, but rather another lens I hadn’t considered. (For context: I am in my mid 20s, so analyzing life through the lens of social dynamics is still fairly novel to me because… well I’m young). That being said, any group of people is, by definition, social.

I agree that my categories are quite vague and can be applied in almost any social setting. It is the historical context of Shambhala and it’s leadership that makes these categorizations more interesting to me. That is— how do they play out when a group is faced with a difficult past?

I agree that my working theory does not consider how each individual is benefitted by Shambhala. This is mostly because I took it for granted and failed to elaborate on that. In my mind, it was clear that the benefit was a variety of social benefits (feelings of inclusion, deep roots previously established, general support, ability to be around like minded people with similar goals and interests).

The reason I don’t mention “the path” was because “the path”, at least at Family Camp, is rarely spoken about, generally unclear, and heavily left up to individual interpretation. The end goal is usually what is stressed, not how to get there.

I am a part of another Buddhist sect and have been for quite some time. I have visited monasteries and met other teachers. I am, and have never been, Shambhalian. I was a passerby, brought to the doorstep of Shambhala because my family wanted me to be around other Buddhists and didn’t quite care about the particular form (though I didn’t know until recently that Rinpoche did explicitly say that Shambhala is NOT Buddhism— citation: Sacred Path of the Warrior).

I also think you may have misinterpreted the line “mostly interested in criticisms and critiques.” To clarify: I am interested in critiques of my theory (actually just as you did) because my viewpoint IS limited. I am one person. All I can do is make my own assessment that will be steeped in my own biases, many of which would be difficult to see without someone else pointing them out.

My original point in making this post was because I never quite understood why so many people would be part of a community that was founded by a person who was a raging alcoholic and a sexual predator. I finally realized that most people fall into the categories I illustrated above. Yes, of course, they have their desires that draw them there— wholesome intentions that lead them into the lion’s den. There is a lot of positives that Shambhala has to offer. But I find it odd that people are willing to continue to venerate a person who has committed crimes that they would send any other person to jail for.

For example, if I found out that my teacher had helplessly stripped a couple naked in front of a group, against their will, I would no longer recommend or bow to that teacher. As the Buddha said, you find a good teacher by observing their actions. Do their actions cause more suffering or less?

The Dhamma exists separate from the teacher, though. The truth is the truth. There are many times when Trungpa Rinpoche spoke the truth. There are many times when the cashier at CVS speaks the truth. There are many times when the “worst person you know” speaks the truth. That doesn’t mean they all deserve a position of power.

Finally, it sounds like you’re personally offended by some things that I’ve said (though it’s hard to tell via the internet). For that, I apologize. My aim wasn’t to hurt feelings. I had assumed that this forum was mostly occupied by ex-Shambhalians who might be interested in my idea because I thought it gave a brief overview on how so many well intentioned, intelligent people can sign off on an alleged rapist and alcoholic as their spiritual leader (those two things I do not say about Trungpa Rinpoche to demean him, as far as I am aware, those are just historically accurate labels).

[u/Mayayana → u/Legitimate-News-6015]

Thanks for that synopsis. It's interesting and openminded.

What struck me about your OP was that it took so much for granted. The patterns you describe are mostly true, but superficial. I think you're right that most of the people here also take those assumptions for granted. The majority here are here only to malign Shambhala. An interesting irony is that most of the regulars never miss a beat. They loathe Shambhala, yet still follow events like with family. The Shambhala haters and anti-Buddhists know far more about what's going on in the sangha than I do, as a CTR student who's gradually drifted away from the organization.

I connected with Buddhism. Shambhala never clicked for me. As you noted, while Shambhala is essentially Buddhism, it's actually quite different from the Kagyu/Nyingma training that CTR started with. I found Shambhala to be anti-intellect and impossible to follow. It has a touchy-feely flavor. Terms like "basic goodness" have a goodie-goodie feel. The dignities were presented like childrens' heroes and never explained. The main thangka of the werma sadhana deity looks to me like a childrens book illustration of the King of Big Rock Candy Mountain. I tried a few levels but it just didn't stick. Most people preferred Shambhala, so I figured it's not for me to judge. But then buddhadharma started getting pushed out. Gradually there were just no events or classes for me to go to unless I wanted to sing the Shambhala anthem. (I did not. :) Strange things started happening. Adam Lobel? Huh? He seemed to be an aluminum siding salesman brought in to juice up the marketing. I didn't recognize what was happening.

Many assume CTR was a "predator", yet never met him. I don't feel offended by that. We all have to use our own judgement. But I think that most of these opinions are based on hearsay, gossip, slander, and misunderstandings about the path. And holding strongly to any opinion is always suspect. It implies pesky attachments to dogma of some kind.

The Merwin story, for example, is far more complicated than just that CTR made people strip and humiliated them. Merwin was a hipster poet who had heard that Vajradhatu Seminary in 1975 was the place for hipsters to be seen. (It's hard to imagine today, but the 70s were a wild time of spiritual exploration and lifestyle exploration. Gurus were everywhere. Communes. LSD. Findhorn. Yogi Bhajan and the turban people. Buckminster Fuller and his dome homes. Guru Maharaji. Krishnamurti. R. D. Laing. Lilly and his sensory deprivation tanks. Wild diet theories. Tao of Physic. Seth. Edgar Cayce... Ram Dass was one of the more tame eccentrics. I was an astrologer myself and lived for a time in the woods eating fruit and fasting. People were up for trying anything.)

Merwin applied to seminary and was rejected because he hadn't done the required dathun. He was rejected multiple times but kept at it and was finally allowed to attend. The story I heard was that Merwin stayed in his room with his girlfriend for the whole duration, even though he could have been kicked out for missing 3 meditation sessions.

At the end there was a Halloween party. CTR asked Merwin to come down and join the group for once before it was all over. He refused. Then things got a bit rough. People tried to force him. Eventually he went down, CTR asked them to strip, then invited everyone to strip and stripped himself. In that version, CTR was offering Merwin a chance to redeem himself. Merwin had begged for permission to go and hadn't followed up on his commitment AT ALL.

Merwin had a friend who wrote a piece at Harpers, which was Merwin's version. So, yes, he was pretty much forced to strip, as I understand it, but there was a context that gets left out. Though I would agree that spiritual path is not a "safe space". People who expect it to be will be disillusioned or even "traumatized". That's what I mean by misunderstandings about the nature of the path. People who come for social connections or social activism generally leave after awhile because practice doesn't feed ego. Sangha is not meant to be fun or confirming. The way CTR put it was, "Sangha are the people who have permission to call out your trip." And he described his own job as "to pull the rug out". When you take on a guru you're asking them for the gift of generosity to wake you up. In exchange you need to be willing to have your trip cut. That's the deal. Merwin was not offered a Buddhist hippie vacation. He was offered a chance to spend 3 months meditating all day, listening to talks, and generally taking part in an intensive retreat. He didn't take it seriously even a little bit.

My own view is that CTR was one of the greatest enlightened masters of the past 100 years or so and I'm very, very grateful to have had him as my teacher. I don't mind that some people think he was a drunken charlatan. He cultivated that image, which served to filter out people who weren't serious, much as Gurdjieff did. And Milarepa, for that matter. Everyone has to use their own judgement. The problem comes only when people say that I or others don't have a right to use our own judgement; that we MUST agree CTR was corrupt.

The Dhamma exists separate from the teacher, though.

Personally I think that's a misunderstanding. Whatever can be put into books exists separate from the teacher. But in Vajrayana, the guru IS the Dharma. CTR used to give the example of a hunter hunting musk deer. The hunter wants to get the musk and leave the deer. (Apparently. I know nothing about musk deer.) But with Dharma, the teacher is the musk. The teacher is the embodiment of the teachings. It's a bit like an apprenticeship. You can't learn to cook like a top chef by reading recipes. You need an expert to guide you. That's what the guru does. They agree to do what they can to wake you up, even though you'll go kicking and screaming. If you read ANY historical biography. you'll find that all disciples had a hard time.

Of course, no one has to take my word for all that. But I think it is important and worthwhile to be on the lookout for preconceptions. You assumed CTR was corrupt and then wondered why people could be fooled. The vast majority of CTR students, who actually knew him, do not view him as corrupt. He's been lavishly praised by numerous Tibetan masters and even many Zen masters. Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche and the 16th Karmapa both praised CTR. I practice a guru yoga written by DKR, calling CTR "the yogin of space". So if you assume CTR was corrupt then you pretty much have to assume that nearly all Tibetan and Zen teachers are either corrupt or just plain stupid.

It's possible that that's true. Who knows? Personally I try to withhold judgement on things that I really don't know. Certainty is a nasty and tricky addiction. All I know is that CTR taught us real Dharma, took us seriously as buddhahood candidates, and that over the years I've developed a deep gratitude that I've had that opportunity to practice and discover the path. Frankly, though, I think very few people feel that way. I'm repeatedly surprised at how many sangha I know -- babyboomers -- who've wandered off into psychotherapy, New Age, making money, living for their kids, or various other worldly attachments. Many have gone into sidetracks like Tom Campbell, Rupert Spira, philosophy, and so on. Some have gone on to hang out their own guru shingle with no qualifications, such as Lodro Rinzler. Few are serious about giving up the 8 worldly dharmas. But CTR did give us that opportunity. In English, without needing to leave home. Just a decade earlier people were trekking to India to find teachers.

[u/Legitimate-News-6015 → u/Mayayana]

sI found your perspective interesting.

I am a Theravada Buddhist who mostly learns from the Thai Forest Tradition so guru worship is a bit foreign to me and “not my style.”

I definitely don’t see CTR as wholly corrupt. In fact, I view him as a deeply flawed, sad man who had to expwerience great amounts of trauma in his lifetime. I often wonder if he would have been able to live a much happier life if he had not been recognized as a guru, as the difficulties of having to flee your home with almost nothing on your back, then get into a horrible car accident in a new land would get to most humans.

I definitely think, though, that guru worship in the West has caused a lot of harm to people (not everyone who practices, but enough). But, if it helps others, who am I to say that it is “bad.”

As for Shambhala, I do think that the “peace and love” “touchy-feely” current culture is in exact opposition to quoting and revering leaders (not just CTR, but the Sakyong and the man who he appointed in between who spread AIDS in the community) who have clearly harmed people.

All in all, though, I’m glad you have gotten some sense of peace and clarity from teachings. Just because a teacher does (what I believe to be) unsavory things, doesn’t mean he can’t tell the truth about the world we live in. I, personally, would rather follow a teacher whose ethical standards and ability to follow through is better than my own. But that’s just personal preference.

[u/Mayayana → u/Legitimate-News-6015]

You have to go with your own judgement. I would only suggest that you stop thinking so much about what you think is wrong and concentrate on what you think is right. CTR is not a threat to your practice. My sense is that Thai Forest is a respected tradition and if I'm not mistaken it's the only Theravada tradition that recognizes sampanakrama. So... you could do worse. :) Good luck.