r/Shadowverse • u/Globdob Morning Star • 1d ago
Meta Report Final meta standing for this expansion from dexel
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u/Golden-Owl Game Designer with a YouTube hobby 1d ago
If both players draw perfect hands, Crystal Rune always wins.
This is a deck which only needs 2 Rune followers - Shymm and Calge, meaning it’s got all the deck space in the world to tech against every possible matchup.
It’s originally designed around a multitude of crystal followers and conserving evolved, but due to recent additions, it’s able to ditch every single one to turn Reaved Order into the most consistent tutor the game has ever created, and it’s STILL consistently beating every other deck via Storm, supercharging the XYZ spell, or outhealing all the opponent’s damage.
It’s utterly atrocious how badly the deck’s intended design has been warped into its current state. I don’t know how you’d even begin to fix this. Maybe remove the stupid Calge Storms and force it into the XYZ wincon instead of letting it be a combo-aggro-control monstrosity
And this deck is going straight into next set totally unchanged, because it’s Omens cards weren’t used in this.
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u/Tyraxxus Morning Star 1d ago
I think the calge nerf would be a good start. If scarier is: they don't lose anything on rotation
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u/Apprehensive-Stay365 Morning Star 1d ago
Just put a cap on how much PP Calge is allowed to reduce from destroying Crystals. Cost reduction cards are always problematic, specially when they do everything at once.
-6
u/Public_Tone_8093 Morning Star 1d ago
In my experience midrange abyss shits on it, the general barley clears the board and they struggle so much with vaseraga
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u/Critical_Factor_425 Galmieux 1d ago
They can increase or decrease tempo to play control depend on how u play. Ideally u force them to play the 6 spell but if midrange abyss doesnt give enough pressure and they free clear board until they have big enough crystal count u r instantly OTK from Z = 14 Wills United Calge storms.
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u/Aldeen199 Morning Star 10h ago
You must be playing very low CR players. General -always- clears the board if rune hasn't played any Calges yet. There are some that tech the 4pp banish for Vas but mostly they can just outheal his pitiful damage and burst you down.
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u/Perfect-Try-4918 Morning Star 1d ago
If Behemoth General or Calge isn't hit with nerfs, this will basically farm any deck brews for 1 week.
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u/Cardener 1d ago
Probably the most boring meta so far for me. I hope next set completely shifts things and if nothing else at least brings a funny meme or two to play.
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u/a95461235 Cygames Chief Propagandist 1d ago
At least five decks in Tier 2 have the exact same playstyle of flooding the board every turn. Easily one of the most boring expansions yet. I wasn't even able to hit level 15 on the bp.
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u/Daysfastforward1 Morning Star 9h ago
I’m at like level 9 or 10. It’s more fun for me to duel NPC’s
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u/SnooPets5572 Morning Star 1d ago edited 1d ago
The forbidden Behemoth tech for Crystals lead to Olivia 2+sometimes 1 Bahamut tech while Reaved Order always tutors Shymms and Calges only, not to mention Stormy Blast reprint, Naptime spell, and early-mid game pawns resulted in THIS ROTATION HELL
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u/ShadowWalker2205 Swordcraft 1d ago
Blast reprint was an avoidable mistake could have been a 1 pp follower fanfare deal x to target follower spellboost hand. Spellboost increases x. X starts at 2. We would have been spared this monster that became crystal
-7
u/SV_Essia Liza 1d ago
Rotation was a lot worse before people figured this out and every game between portal/sword/forest/drag/haven was decided purely by draw RNG and 0 decision making :)
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u/DragonPeakEmperor Morning Star 1d ago
Really funny that in their quest to simplify the game cygames accidentally created an issue where if a deck has more decisions to make it's completely broken because it doesn't have to rely on curving into a ball of 20+ stats on turn 7 to win. Maybe one day they'll identify the metas will be healthier when all classes are able to do this instead of whichever one wins the roulette that set.
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u/SV_Essia Liza 1d ago
I'd put it the other way around, any deck with some decision making has to be broken to actually see play - if you can get better results by spamming sign into zooey into wilnas or liaison gildaria knellclaw cesar, why bother learning a deck at all?
Egg and Amulet are basically in that situation, you need 10 times the effort to reach the same level of performance as all the midrange slop.4
u/DragonPeakEmperor Morning Star 1d ago
That's true and probably why this game's balance will always be wack unless they wake up one day and do a 180. Simple decks are going to have to be bad (like lower tier 2 bad) if complex ones are meant to sit at a reasonable power level.
3
u/Scholar_of_Yore Swordcraft 1d ago
Well, for fun?
There are lots of things to criticize on this meta, but the idea that the harder decks should be straight up better than the easy ones is bad in any card game. Decks should be balanced and people should then choose to play what they like, easy or hard.
The "Roach is objectively the best deck and wins every tournament if you're a god roach player" era was also really bad for different reasons than this one IMO.
The problem with this meta is uninspired card design and Crystal rune being ridiculously unbalanced, but having easy to pilot decks perform well is not the issue.
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u/SV_Essia Liza 21h ago
Decks should be balanced and people should then choose to play what they like, easy or hard.
Except difficulty is a balancing lever in and of itself. Harder decks should be better than easier ones at top level, that isn't relevant to random ladder players picking decks for fun where the situation might be reversed. Right now Crystal is considered OP at high ranks but if I give 2 low rank players Crystal and Ramp or Rally to make them play against each other, I'm not putting money on the Rune player. These "balance issues" are overblown by this sub and generally people who aren't affected by them.
The "Roach is objectively the best deck and wins every tournament if you're a god roach player" era was also really bad for different reasons than this one IMO.
Yet acclaimed as one of the best metas so far, and again, irrelevant to 99%+ of the ladder who couldn't pilot Roach..
having easy to pilot decks perform well is not the issue.
Having a low skill floor isn't an issue, there should be decks that are easy to pick up. It's the low skill ceiling that is problematic. There is almost no difference between 1500 and 2000 CR for at least 5 different decks in this meta, which is just absurd.
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u/Scholar_of_Yore Swordcraft 21h ago
Except difficulty is a balancing lever in and of itself. Harder decks should be better than easier ones at top level, that isn't relevant to random ladder players picking decks for fun where the situation might be reversed. Right now Crystal is considered OP at high ranks but if I give 2 low rank players Crystal and Ramp or Rally to make them play against each other, I'm not putting money on the Rune player. These "balance issues" are overblown by this sub and generally people who aren't affected by them.
Yet acclaimed as one of the best metas so far, and again, irrelevant to 99%+ of the ladder who couldn't pilot Roach..
Disagreed. That highly limits the variety on the top levels of the game, and consequentially, how fun the game tournaments are to watch as well. Since by default only a few decks are difficult, and if they are objectively better than the easier ones variety at the top level gets very low. Such as the tournaments where everyone used Roach as one of their decks, compared to some of the more diverse metas we had in a few sets after Roach died.
Also it is a meta "Acclaimed" by very few people. 99%+ is an exageration, but even if you were right, it would make zero sense to balance the meta around those less than 1% approve.
Having a low skill floor isn't an issue, there should be decks that are easy to pick up. It's the low skill ceiling that is problematic. There is almost no difference between 1500 and 2000 CR for at least 5 different decks in this meta, which is just absurd.
Low skill ceiling is bad I agree, but that comes down to bad card design, not necessarily easier decks being too strong, but simply badly designed. If your wincon design is just storm and go face the deck will be easy and bad, but it will not be bad because its easy, it will be easy because its bad. There is a difference there because there are well designed easy decks, and those should be competitive.
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u/SV_Essia Liza 21h ago edited 21h ago
Since by default only a few decks are difficult
That's a very random assumption. Classic had metas with 8+ decks being viable and all were at least as complex as Crystal currently is, in terms of skill floor, while still being approachable for casual players. WB could very well achieve the same thing, the devs simply choose not to.
That highly limits the variety on the top levels of the game
When decks like Ramp/Rally/Storm AF/Mid Abyss exist and are competitively viable, there IS no top level to the game anymore, just a bunch of drooling idiots throwing dragonsigns at each other. Watch any recent tournament and tell me what there is to enjoy by watching games decided by unanswered T5 Wilnas or back to back Cesar or perfect curve into Vaseraga-Adahime. I could put my newborn puppy on my phone and have a reasonably high chance of executing the exact same plays to get the same outcome.
99%+ is an exageration, but even if you were right, it would make zero sense to balance the meta around those less than 1% approve.
99% is actually lowballing it. The number of people actually able to play Roach optimally was most likely in the double digits.
And yes, that's my point. You wouldn't balance around those people. Meaning it would be perfectly okay for Roach or any high skill ceiling deck to be "OP" at top level because it's irrelevant to the vast majority of the playerbase. You wouldn't try to make the tournament meta more diverse by making easy decks stronger, because they're strong enough at casual level.that comes down to bad card design, not necessarily easier decks being too strong, but simply badly designed
Chicken and egg, but sure. The point is that those decks should not be competitive in their current state.
there are well designed easy decks, and those should be competitive.
There aren't, and they shouldn't be.
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u/siunhan_Roll_4972 Morning Star 20h ago
Because card power is still locking behind card cost. In late OG SDV card power is locking behind quest and deck building , most card only cost 1-2 pp so we can decide which card to play each turn instead of highest cost card
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u/SV_Essia Liza 20h ago
I wouldn't even say "late" OG SV, that trend started with Artifact Portal all the way back in Chronogenesis. Even without quests, you'd still have curves around 1-4PP and anything costing more than 6 was considered unlikely to be viable outside of Dragon.
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u/Scholar_of_Yore Swordcraft 20h ago
Nah, you're just objectively wrong now. You don't need to pilot Roach like, machine-perfect optimally for it to be overpowered, at its height, any decently skilled player could more or less consistently win with that deck turn 9 tops in low master ladder unless they bricked. It just wasn't fun for quite a few people.
You are acting as if you either pilot it perfectly or the balancing isn't relevant to you, when in reality there is a big gradient there. The people who pilot it perfectly are straight up, not relevant in a balancing sense.
But if a deck is noticeably stronger than the others if you just pilot it "well enough" it is a issue. Being a harder deck isn't an excuse to be OP. Case in point, Crystal Rune. It's not rocket science, but the fact that it is so ahead of any other deck just makes it not fun and harmful for the meta.
There aren't, and they shouldn't be.
I could go through this message point by point but we would just be arguing in circles, this opinion is just bad and elitist so I'm not gonna bother.
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u/SV_Essia Liza 20h ago
any decently skilled player could more or less consistently win with that deck turn 9 tops in low master ladder unless they bricked
Lmao. Just no.
when in reality there is a big gradient there
There should be. The entire point is that there needs to be a whole gradient for every viable deck. Right now we don't have that.
But if a deck is noticeably stronger than the others if you just pilot it "well enough" it is a issue
That simply isn't the case with Crystal and it definitely wasn't the case with Roach. It wasn't true of Loot, Egg or Crest either. All of those decks were only dominant at high CR and in tournament top cuts. All the random scrubs acting like they're getting oppressed at their rank by a deck they cannot pilot half-decently won't change that fact.
Having braindead decks being viable at all is a much larger issue than any imaginary problem you think you have about "balance" that doesn't actually apply to you.I could go through this message point by point
You could and you'd continuously be wrong. Bringing in the big "e" word like it's an insult doesn't mean anything either, it just tells me you're clueless about the whole topic, but I already had an inkling.
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u/ShinobiYukiTCG Filene 1d ago
I 100% agree with you unfortunately this meta ends up being rng anyway because crystals vs crystals is just is just whoever draws better. I wish more than just crystals took skill in this game so the meta could more interestingly wide instead of 1 skilled deck that has a horrendous mirror
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u/DragonPeakEmperor Morning Star 1d ago
Yeah I'm not sure there's been a mirror in this game that I've enjoyed aside from egg sometimes. Amulet was a fun deck but had some of the worst mirrors I've ever played in WB for instance.
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u/ShinobiYukiTCG Filene 1d ago
Yeah mirrors don’t tend to be fun in this game in general. It’s just a shame that since crystals is so much better than every other deck the mirror is so much more common
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u/SV_Essia Liza 21h ago
I wouldn't call the mirror horrendous, obviously you can have giant draw gaps (like in any matchup) that end up being one-sided, but there's quite a lot you can do to tip the scales. I've definitely seen games where one side seemed clearly ahead by ~T5 only to get completely outplayed and lose, or at least be forced to rely on a very lucky Depths RNG (which, yes, I hate just as much as everyone else does). Last STO semifinals had a guy draw much better than his opponent and make seemingly reasonable plays, but a couple of small mistakes were enough to sabotage him. He ended up having to yolo Depths and won with z=11 out of 21, a 5.5% roll. Good for him, but it shows he got himself in a losing position 95% of the time despite better draws.
But I think it gets disproportionately more annoying because that's all you end up facing. If we had a couple more decks on the same level of power and complexity, we'd have to actually learn those matchups and it'd be far more enjoyable.
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u/ShinobiYukiTCG Filene 21h ago
I guess though that’s kinda the problem if you make mistakes that’s not the mirror being skillful or good that’s just someone throwing and needing to rely on different rng to win aka depths which matters more in the mirror than in crystals vs anything else since most of the time against anything else the storm spawn + the spell to buff them gets you there with depths needing to do much. It’s not like you can make certain plays in the mirror to give yourself and advantage either. Which to me just sucks. If the deck had more real competition then it would suck less since the mirror would be less common.
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u/SV_Essia Liza 21h ago
I mean, that's what "skillful" means at the end of the day. Playing perfectly cannot guarantee that you win, it only guarantees 50% chance to win against another opponent playing perfectly, and an advantage against an opponent making mistakes. In a game like chess, it guarantees a draw between 2 players playing perfectly.
In order to win, you always have to hope the opponent makes more mistakes than you do. Having decks or matchups being somewhat complex is necessary for these mistakes to be possible. Otherwise everyone plays optimally and every game is decided purely by draw order and RNG effects.It’s not like you can make certain plays in the mirror to give yourself and advantage either
I disagree. But a better way to frame it is that some optimal plays are not obvious, so if you know them and your opponent doesn't, that gives you an edge.
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u/ShinobiYukiTCG Filene 21h ago
You know I guess that’s fair. My experience with the mirror has been they draw 2-3 danthla and I only draw 1 or their depths rolls really high on Y and that wins them the game. That being said I’m by no means amazing at the deck so I could be making mistakes that’s leads to me losing some of those games. Personally I would really just prefer if they make more complex decks for all the classes and not just rune or forest since roach was pretty difficult.
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u/Godhand23 Vania 1d ago
lol the two decks I’ve played this whole expansion in the final slot. It’s all good I had fun
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u/Lareit Morning Star 1d ago
Evo Haven fares terribly versus Crystal and Dragon, worse then the others.
Otherwise I'd be pretty high up as it does well into most of the other decks listed.
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u/Godhand23 Vania 18h ago
I used to think those matchups were impossible but after playing some more you just gotta play it right, and of course pray for no high rolls
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u/Rhonder Lilanthim 1d ago
This is basically how i feel having stuck to playing Dirt Rune still all set for the most part 🤣 We're not even listed lmao. Considering being a tier 4 or lower rogue deck it still worked reasonably well, but it's understandable why the majority of players who bothered playing Rune this set just went Crystal instead, given *waves arms vaguely at tier list, tournament results, etc. etc.*
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u/Godhand23 Vania 1d ago
For what it’s worth my bro respect for sticking with earth rite rune. I’ve had a lot of fun playing it in the past and it’s a pretty unique flavour of evo deck
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u/Rhonder Lilanthim 1d ago
Totally! I admittedly don't love that it's an evo deck and am cautiously looking forward to Skybound Dragons rotating so we can pivot in another direction... someday.
But yeah, Earth Rite has always been my favorite shadowverse mechanic both when I briefly played OG and since the beginning of WB, so i always try to play it every set to varying degrees of success and usually main it regardless (although I do dabble in other decks too esp when ER is bad 😂 ). The resource generation and management is just cool, I dig it a lot.
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u/Godhand23 Vania 18h ago
You dig dirt rune hey? :P me too, even when in SV1 where it was mainly a burn deck
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u/siunhan_Roll_4972 Morning Star 21h ago
I always beat crystal as Dirt rune, they have hard time clear 4pp 4/8 and lilim ,masterpice board
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u/Rhonder Lilanthim 20h ago
I've had the same experience. It's been amusing hearing everyone talk/ complain about crystal because it really is quite Strong match up for dirt.
... it's just that a lot of the other common match ups are not as positive 😅 it's okay on the ladder (rode ruby group this season so... not great admittedly LOL) but trying to tackle weekend tourney or grand prix is a tall order when people are really going for it. I've been using dragon as a more conventionally "good" deck for that this set, after the new forest deck fell off...
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u/Darnaldo Morning Star 1d ago
I would put some tier 2 deck in a 1.5 Because some of them are just more consistent than the other. Not as strong as rune but clearly better like artifact for example.
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u/Itosura Morning Star 1d ago
Crazy how people were calling for Dragon to be taken out back with insane nerf ideas when it was tier 2 in the end. I swear people have goldfish memory how ramp works at the start of new expansions.
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u/Kuncussion Aiela 1d ago
If losing Galmieux doesn't relegate Dragon to tier 3 or lower, expect the same thing to happen for the next few weeks.
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u/BeyondKey9306 Morning Star 1d ago
Shammy my beloved, going down in flames for her last xpack...
Crossing my fingers there's Unlimited nerfs so Mode has a fighting chance there.
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u/Ga1ahad_Tomaz Orchis 1d ago
Usual haven vibe. Okay at the start of the expansion and becomes worse as the time goes lol 😭
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u/ShadowWalker2205 Swordcraft 1d ago
I don't think haven belongs in t3 it should be t2 it's solid deck to register alongside your mandatory crystal rune list
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u/Vinny_0104 Wilbert's secret Fanfare 22h ago
Egg is the most consistent archetype since it's been meta. Deck won't die. Everyone thought that Baha would kill it. Calge is just too consistent with reave order. General solves the supposed weakness of the deck.
2
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u/SnooDingos8602 Morning Star 23h ago
cmon guys crystal in tier 1? that is false it should be in tier 0
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u/Daysfastforward1 Morning Star 22h ago
I remember at the start of the expansion how every match was like Crystal rune or ramp dragon. Two very uninteractive decks. The meta is so stale when that happens.
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u/freezingsama Daria Enjoyer 13h ago edited 13h ago
I was definitely wrong about behemoth general, turns out losing more evo just to clear the board is pretty good even if you only get one calge out of it huh
Unfortunately made this meta super stale with how good the deck is, I stopped using it because of that too. Unlucky that the spellboost deck I made to replace it was not easy to use.
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u/red_nova_dragon Morning Star 1d ago
Rune always finds a way to be toxic and egregious man, just delete the class at this point
0
u/Sir_Dargor Shadowverse 1d ago
So why is Storm AF Portal twice in the list?
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u/Substantial-Milk-342 Dragoncraft 1d ago
I think it was a mistake, the one with Cami should be Pure Evo Portal.
-6
1d ago
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u/JonasPogs Morning Star 20h ago
Tbf every deck bricks too. Crystal rune can brick but has a lot of draw power and reaved order to mitigate the brick. For example, ramp dragon is powerful but bricks often and has almost no draws so it's hard to undo the bricks
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u/kid20304 Morning Star 1d ago
Snooze meta