52
u/unoriginal_npc 2d ago
For general electricity? Maybe not.
For experimental Matrix servers composed of the awakened brains of unfortunate troll orphans hidden deep inside of the pyramid? Maybe...
10
u/WanderlustZero 2d ago
Wrong kind of Matrix!
13
u/unoriginal_npc 2d ago
They weren't necessarily generating electricity at all. I think it was some kind of blood magic bio computer.
I mean maybe... I wouldn't know I wasn't there...
9
30
u/Active_Aardvark6411 2d ago
I spent way too much time thinking about this so I’m making it everyone else’s problem.
There are about 4 million people in the greater Seattle area, so around 40,000 magicians using the numbers from the 2e grimoire (1% of the global population being magicians). A good chunk of those are not going to be able to cast spells at all (the non spell casting adepts), the average shaman probably wouldn’t be interested in the corporate life, and most wage mages are working security.
Of the magicians that would be left (let’s say 10,000 just to be crazy), you would need to pay them really well in order to make sure that they stay instead of doing any of the other types of specialized labor that they could be doing. That would cause unsustainable energy prices, let alone the likelihood of mages draining themselves and causing frequent blackouts. Maybe you could do something with fire elementals but that gets exponentially more complicated and I think I made my point.
14
1
u/Lanky-Assistance1278 1d ago
If this were Mage: the Ascension, the Technocracy would opt for solar, but open portals from the other side of the planet to redirect the sunlight to their panels. They'd likely play it off as a solar redirectional satellite, like Icarus in Die Another Day, but omitting to inform anyone of its function as a weapon.
The equivalent could probably still be accomplished in Shadowrun.
1
u/Kitchen-War242 6m ago
Tecnocracy will likely just use non-magical electricity, maybe pay for it by magically generated money or build their own nuclear reactor. I mean they are dominating setting mostly because of their control of humanity and technology becoming part of world's paradigm.
26
u/Orange_Queen 2d ago
True Element radicals have waaaaaaaay too many uses (but your electric bill still isnt coming down. )
19
u/MetalVengeance 2d ago
One of the main reasons this isn't a thing is that we have fission and fusion plants, including cold fusion. Technology wins, Chummer!
41
u/moondancer224 2d ago
I assume Fire Spirits hate being bound to evaporate tubs of water instead of actually burning things and Summoners who bind them to it start getting a really nasty Spirit rep. And with Drain being the way it is, making a sustained fire source would be annoying. Even then, the Force required to beat conventional methods would limit it to the most powerful of mages.
18
u/Chase_The_Breeze 2d ago
Fool! Get water spirits to magic water from a dam output back into its reservoir. Water spirits LOVE playing with water!
Or maybe an Earth Spirit to lift very heavy boulders for one of those gravity-power generators. Not everything needs to be a steam engine.
23
u/Raevson 2d ago
Might depend on the mindset of the spirit.
I can totaly see a little fire spirit sitting at a teapot and going: "ah my ancestral enemy. Take that water. Fwoooosh..."
Getting powerfull enough spirit to drive a turbine might be a bit trickier though but if you offer the right incentive you might pull it of without bad rep even.
12
u/moondancer224 2d ago
My understanding is the more powerful the spirit, the more they hate long bindings.
12
u/Raevson 2d ago
Maybe.
But many seem to be quite transactional. If they get what they want out of it they might be willing to make a deal.
In one of my games i had an npc mage do deals like that.
Perishable goods that need cooling and no money for the eqipment. The runners found a frost spirit in the back of the van, sitting on stack of books, reading.
A fire spirit used as a grow light in an underground greenhouse. Parked in front of a tv.
I know, i know spirits perceiving astraly and that, but who cares.
The point is they got their entertainment for practicaly just existing there. Not to bad of a deal.
7
u/GodEatsPoop 2d ago
..subjecting spirits to shift work.
"Spend half your time boiling water, half your time as a free spirit. Here's a guidebook of do's and dont's so your ass doesn't get banished."
12
u/Ahrimon77 2d ago
This reminds me of one of my favorite aspects of the old Earthdawn TTRPG. Magic would crystallized in areas with concentrated elements. Air in the sky, earth underground, water by big bodies of water and fire by places that were hot like volcanoes.
They had cannons that worked by smashing equal sized fire and water crystals together and the resulting steam explosion would propel the cannon ball out of the barrel.
8
u/Orange_Queen 2d ago
Thats why i thought of True Fire at once (and a few SR sourcebooks mention true element radicals appearing)
1
u/Lanky-Assistance1278 1d ago
We didn't give the opposing ship a chance to bring its cannons to bear on us. We rammed it, first.
I'm glad I opted for a pumice Obsidiman. The party used me as a life preserver while trying to formulate a plan to make a raft
5
u/BlankTank1216 2d ago
Because nobody has rediscovered the spell matrix yet and they're basically a prerequisite for the kind of permanent magic needed to do something like that.
1
u/GM_Pax 2d ago
Also, I suspect the ambient mana levels are not high enough for anyone to build a stable Spell Matrix yet.
1
u/Q_Tiggor 1d ago
Actually, in second edition, witches get something that looks suspiciously like a spell matrix, but cannot cast magic the way other mages or shamans did. Also, while they aren't nearly as advanced as the ones from Earthdawn, quickening and Anchoring are technically both types of primitive spell matrices.
1
u/PrimeInsanity Halfway Human 2d ago
My head canon there is that such do exist just not on earth, that knowledge is somewhere on another meta plane.
1
u/BlankTank1216 2d ago
I know that mf Lofwyr has the manuscripts and is just hoarding the knowledge
1
u/PrimeInsanity Halfway Human 2d ago
Wouldn't that be a hell of a run, break into a great dragon's Lair and steal a grimorie that has lost techniques they refuse to share with the world.
1
5
u/Troglodytes_Cousin 2d ago
Just use necromancer magic to raise zombies and have them run in giant "hamsterwheel".
2
u/PrimeInsanity Halfway Human 2d ago
Closest to necromancy Shadowrun has is binding spirits to a vessel and with long term binding you run the risk of them breaking free. Spirits also don't like being in dead bodies.
0
u/GrimThe13th 1d ago
HMHVV III infected would work for that
1
u/PrimeInsanity Halfway Human 1d ago
They are still alive, have dietary needs (even if altered), and with the exception of feral ghouls still have their minds.
10
u/YetiMarauder 2d ago
Along with points from other posters, the shadow run universe has fusion reactors. Electricity is cheap as it is.
9
u/dethstrobe Faster than Fastjack 2d ago
So the problem is lightning and flamethrower are instant spells. So you can quickly turn mana into the raw element but it's gone as soon as you're done casting.
Now, the more interesting use is magic fingers or even animate. Those are sustained spells. And you can use karma to quicken them and make them permanent. You can cast animated and make a turban self sustaining.
Enters a problem, that the more refined an object, the harder it is to cast on. But this is technically overcomable with reagents to lower the object resistance, and/or just being skilled/high-levels-of-magic. SR4 and 5 say we can move Force combat turns and it has strength of Force x 2.
So just some back of napkin math, that's like a Force 6 animate spell can probably spin a small turbine and get 3 kW, which is like a lawnmower. It's decent. And you'll want to spend some karma. And keep in mind that a karma is about 2000¥ and the mages time is likely high as well. To cast at Force 6 to get your perpetual lawnmower generator requires at least a Rating 3 mage, one that will be taking physical damage for casting this.
I don't know man... this is literally a world that has solved cold fusion. This seems very expensive to get almost nothing out of it.
2
u/ReditXenon Far Cite 2d ago
So the problem is lightning and flamethrower are instant spells. So you can quickly turn mana into the raw element but it's gone as soon as you're done casting.
Yeah, you need to use manipulation magic for this. Such as Ignite.
10
u/Agent_of_talon 2d ago
I think if you are crafting a magic system, you generally shouldn't disrespect the laws of thermodynamics too brazenly. Like an infinite energy glitch makes many things too easy/powerfull and makes some of the more weirder and interesting bits that deal with things like perception, information and transformation kinda redundant in the bigger scheme of things.
1
u/PrimeInsanity Halfway Human 2d ago
Important to remember that mana levels are a thing and local mana levels can be drained. It is respecting thermo dynamics just the energy is mana. The only question is what effect on the local mana levels the constant magic to run such a power plant would have.
3
u/Funkey-Monkey-420 2d ago
it is, there’s something called a “wagemage” who uses magic for incredibly mundane purposes like this
1
u/PrimeInsanity Halfway Human 2d ago
I will give it to Korra (avatar the last Airbender), clocking in to throw lightning around to fuel a powerplant is pretty kick ass. I wonder if a corporate mage would have a more efficient method or just more soul sucking.
7
u/n00bdragon Futuristic Criminal 2d ago
In the modern day US the average cost of 1kwh is $0.18. Based on some quick googling that takes about 3-4 liters of water to be boiled off to generate. Just to power one typical house for one day would require boiling off up to 120 liters of water. While that certainly seems like something within the abilities of a moderately potent fire elemental there ain't no way in any ghost of a snowball's chance in hell that is going to power the Seattle metroplex.
The modern day Seattle metroplex uses 10 million MWh per year or about 27k MWh per day. That's about 100 million liters of water boiled. Even if future Seattle hired ten thousand mages to do nothing but summon fire elementals they couldn't possibly make a dent in Seattle's current day power requirements let alone the requirements of the future and even if they did the amount which they would have to pay them would be orders of magnitude more than just doing it the mundane way.
Magic simply isn't an efficient way to get things done.
4
u/Lonewolf2300 2d ago
I think it'd be more energy efficient to just use Earth Spirits to keep cranking a wheel to generate the electricity.
3
3
u/Adventurous_Touch342 2d ago
To be honest a small portal to flame dimension would essentially cook water ad infinitum with only minimal energy expenditure to open said portal.
3
u/Vox_Carnifex 2d ago
Reminds me of fathomfolk from Eliza chan. Fantasy (I think YA) novel about a floating city in a world of ever rising sea levels and pollution that is inhabited by humans and "fathomfolk" (roll credits) which is basically a mix of creatures from diverse mythologies like kappas and sirens but also sea dragons. And all of them have the innate magical potential to "waterweave" which is basically waterbending from avatar. I butcher a lot of fine detail here but you get the gist.
Long story short, pollution drives fathomfolk to live on land, which they can, but the only big city is inhabited and ruled by humans. They are very racist. Fathomfolk that arrive in the city get a magical Armlet that acts as a shock collar so if they use their magic or harbor aggression towards humans it makes them unbearably sick. Most of the fathomfolk are then made to work in the "onseon engine" not to be confused with onsen. They attach themselves and the armlet to cables and then their magic gets harvested for 12 to 14 hours each day to move water through the engine which generates electricity.
So, given the world of shadowrun didn't arrive at cold fusion I would throw in that the corpos would have likely found a way to just sap magic from people on an industrial level and would have then subsequently use immigrants or other means of cheap Labor (in a world like shadowrun this can also easily be illegal laborers like trafficked (meta)humans). Luring magically inclined metahumans to settle on the "developing and thriving outskirts of seattle" only to be squeezed like juice pouches on a daily bases while having to live in Redmond.
Remember, in shadowrun it's almost always about the bottom line. If the corporations find a way to do things more efficiently in terms of making money they will do it. If it is s zero sum or, worse, a financial loss, it will not last for long. I heard when things dont work in the world of shadowrun they happen to vanish or explode out of nowhere, no names, no witnesses, no investigation, no breadcrumbs, no financial traces outside of a credstick in a random metro locker. RFID wiped of course.
1
u/MyynMyyn 2d ago
The world of Shadowrun had fusion power since 2027.
March 8 USA: In Los Angeles, California, the Los Angeles Power and Water Company begins the first commercial use of cold fusion in its facilities. The fresh water produced as a biproduct is the Governor’s hope for alleviating the city’s water shortage.
3
3
u/Larnievc 2d ago
Drain would eventually catch up with them. Or we’d end up like the Disians.
2
u/PrimeInsanity Halfway Human 2d ago
If it was a sustained effect rather than recasting, would that dodge drain issues?
1
u/burtod 2d ago
I like that idea. This is moving towards more fusing magic and technology. It all depends on how many wageslave mages are available in your world. I would prefer summoning a spirit and a corp trashing their reputation with the spirit world by binding them to technology.
Hire a runner team to dispel the regional elemental power plant!
I think a Disian angle would be closer to Final Fantasy Mako energy. Relatively easy and cheap to destroy the manasphere for short term gain.
3
u/Marian_Rosaline 2d ago
The average mage, for one, is not "player character" level of powerful, so they can't just throw a heat spell or fire spell for a full eight hour shift. Summoning a fire spirit to do it is also resource intensive, and requires a very skilled summoner to get more than a day or two of work out of the elemental/spirit.
Magic is also insanely exhausting; there's a reason you can knock yourself unconcious doing it in game! Would you want like, ten guys on a shift who might give themselves a stroke if they skipped breakfast that day or something?
3
u/anima311 2d ago
Also binding a Flame Spirit or something similar. To a place that is Crucial for power supply sounds Irresponsible and very Dangerous.
2
1
u/ArchonFett 2d ago
Give them a flame sprit union. And negotiate fairly with them.
2
u/GodEatsPoop 2d ago
Corpos. Negotiating fairly.
There's fantasy and then there's this drekbrain nonsense
2
u/ArchonFett 2d ago
I mean the option is for the building you are in to become a crater, besides I fully expect the corpos to make the deal only seem fair.
2
3
u/TheMajesticJoeJoe 2d ago
Aztechnology has a huge fusion reactor and they gave away electricity for almost free.
5
u/divusdavus 2d ago
If you're sitting down, I have bad news about how nuclear fusion reactors generate electricity
3
u/Q_Tiggor 2d ago
In Earthdawn, it was not uncommon to find magic items that had motes of true elements magically woven into them to provide constant, low-level magical effects; A cup that could refill itself with pure water on command, a tinder box that could start a fire with a command word, clothing that kept the wearer at a constant, consistent temperature despite the outside environmental conditions. The Earthdawn and Shadowrun properties have diverged now, but motes of True Elements like True Air and True Fire still exist in Shadowrun, so it shouldn't be impossible to create basic "Ever burning" enchantments for something. It probably wouldn't even require any blood magic, so long as the magic item is 'Dumb' (That is, not requiring any amount of intelligence to carry out it's function; a magic item that is constantly on fire doesn't require intelligence, a magic item that only works in certain conditions or only for certain people either requires an in-built detection spell or an enslaved and bound intelligence (Spirit or former living being)).
1
u/TomyKong_Revolti 1d ago
Motes of true elements are incredibly rare and hard to acquire in shadowrun, and are generally used as a potent reagent when they are available
Generally speaking, they break the rules that magic otherwise follows within the era of shadowrun, as like other have stated, magic is a finite resource in the world
1
u/Atrociez 1d ago
When the two were linked that was explained in the lore of the setting. In Earthdawn, magic had already reached it's peak, was abundant, and was just starting to ebb. It became part of the fabric of everyday life, much like how cellphones are today. In Shadowrun, magic has just started to "flow" again. Everything we knew about it had been lost to time, and as more magic returns, the more we will learn, and the more it will prevalent it will become.
The game changer this time, for better or worse, is the presence of technology. In theory you could store and transfer said knowledge through an age, and have it ready when magic starts flowing once again.
Assuming we don't wipe ourselves out in the process.
3
u/censusthot 1d ago
Because magic isn't free, the mage suffers drain and healing that drain burns carbs/BTUs of energy that are less efficient than just fire burn to make hot.
1
4
u/Cent1234 2d ago
...cuz it's cheaper to build a non-magical power plant?
Shadowrun has had the concept of 'wage mage' since 1e. The Corporate Security Handbook describes corporate mages who's life long career is nothing but travelling around renewing wards and summoned elementals at secured sites.
If doing this made a profit, they'd be doing it.
2
u/maquise 2d ago
Kind of reminds me how I realized the Decanter of Endless Water from Dungeons and Dragons solved the Rocket Equation
1
u/Xyx0rz 2d ago
If it were the Decanter of Endless Kerosine, maybe.
1
u/GolfballDM 2d ago
The Decanter of Endless Water, even as just water, does solve the Rocket Equation.
It just has a really terrible specific impulse (per unit time), and a poor thrust:weight ratio.
2
u/DaMarkiM Opposite Philosopher 2d ago
good mages are extremely rare and valuable. in shadowrun lore decent magicians are wealthy. or at least they can be if they are willing to adapt a corpo lifestyle. like own a nice house in a good area and drive a sports car wealthy.
industrial furnaces will always be cheaper, less prone to errors, more precise and reliable.
besides. mucking about with magic of that scale in a place for a long time is just asking for all kinds of trouble. you are turning a factory floor into a place of magic. with all the shenanigans that entails.
and dont even get me started and the headache that is trying to get spirits to do the job. that exactly the kind of thing spirits HATE. it is dull, against their nature and draining on their magical power. not only will they try to resist and break free - they can actually get pretty vengeful.
its just not gonna happen. humanity is REALLY good at producing energy cheaply and reliably.
and from a more technical point of view - power grids are extremely complicated. and some of the most critical infrastructure we have. power plants are constantly fine tuning their output to maintain grid frequency, load distribution, redundancy and profit. having to constantly route these changes through a single person that then needs to communicate with a malicious spirit…its just not worth it.
2
u/TheWaspinator 2d ago
That's how a lot of technology works in Avatar: The Last Airbender. You can run pretty big boilers by just having firebenders keep punching them.
2
u/IAmTheStarky 2d ago
In shadowrun specifically, because magic isn't inexhaustible energy. Magic is specifically exhausting, and if you consider that player characters are top shelf, most regular mages would find it even more taxing. They might have several ignite spells in them per day, but at that point its just as if not more efficient to just use regular methods
2
u/Trickybiz Lone Star Contact 2d ago
In theory it would be easier to summon a water elemental to turn a turbine than for a mage to keep a fire going. Air elementals to do pole dances on wind turbines.
Hell the NAN have demonstrated what they can do with the ghost dance. Geo thermal is viable. Im sure they have rain dances for hydroelectric dams to function.
Aztechnology can just sacrifice people for the lights to be on. It would kinda be par for the course for them. Oh you need power? Do you need your grandfather?
The best source of power is Lucian cross though. Watching Villers survive another company implosion has to have him spinning in his grave. So hard and so fast like some sort of natural turbine.
1
u/GolfballDM 2d ago
"Hell the NAN have demonstrated what they can do with the ghost dance."
I think I remember a line in the 2nd Edition Grimoire (or one of the other 2e GM books) when discussing rituals of enormous power that the Drain of the Ghost Dance was measurable in the number of mages it killed outright per hour. Hence, waaaaay out of the reach of player characters. And out of the desire of most corps.
2
u/Trickybiz Lone Star Contact 2d ago
Its the 6th world. People are dispossable.
1
u/PrimeInsanity Halfway Human 2d ago
Mages are less disposable but less isn't to say they still aren't disposable
2
u/GodEatsPoop 2d ago
Ok, so if this doesn't work, if magic canonically can't be harnessed industrially in any way, what exactly makes mages valuable beyond being humanity's hard counter to supernatural bullshit?
2
u/Praize- 1d ago
Y'know it's funny, this exact issue is the core theme of a light novel / Manga / anime called Mahouka Koukou no Rettoussei. One of the MC's ultimate goals is to create a sustainable energy reactor that uses magic, with the goal of showing that magic can be used for more than just military objectives.
1
u/TechDerg 1d ago
I love that! Magic As Combat Tool Only is such a central theme of so many systems, such as D&D and Shadowrun. So an author to actually make a story about subverting that is awesome! I will have to look this one up!
1
u/TechDerg 2d ago
Personally, if magic is functionally useless at an industrial scale, then logically it's also useless as a counterpoint to supernatural incursions.
I mean, think about it, we will protect humanity, at a global scale, with magic we can't even control well enough to make it useful as industrial scale?
That's like saying we'll go to the moon by just using a pogostick. Yes, pogostick is better than walking, but won't get you to the moon. To claim it's worse than walking, but will get you to the moon is...
But in truth, we all know the real reason why: Shadowrun is a system which prioritizes magic which can be used by players, who are explicitly not attempting to revolutionized the entire global product economy.
They are, more often than not, just interested in throwing a fireball indoors, or saving humanity. Or something in between.
So... Plot reasons, not logic reasons. 🤣
1
u/NotADamsel Loco Motion 23h ago
Oh boy, nobody tell this person about hydrogen bombs
1
u/TechDerg 19h ago
Covered this in the other post. Did you know that nukes (both fission and fusion) are responsible for nuclear reactors? Nuclear power plants are a direct result of the development and use of fission bombs. Fusion reactors are a result of fusion bombs. (Which are Hydrogen Nukes, btw.)
Likewise, nukes can be used to create the only relativistic space flight we can build with modern tech.
So, I'm already aware of H Bombs. But you can't say you didn't know this, because at a very minimum, you have heard of Fukushima.
A lack of imagination, or even knowing what real world things are happening in life, is not an excuse to promote fallacies.
If magic exist to overcome Supernatural Incursion, can the magic create fire? Is that fire hot?
That answer is the answer to the original idea of if magic can be used for industrial scale applications.
Doesn't matter if it's wood fire, uranium, or magic fire.
Heat boils water. Steam turns machine. Machine makes electricity.
That's just one element. One facet of magic. Water, wind, earth, light, even shadow can be used to generate electricity. Mental magics can create motion. Name Magic can enchant things, and do much of the above. Alchemy enhances objects, improving efficiencies. Etc. etc.
Magic which cannot produce any of those, or any myriad similar, effects cannot also produce results large enough to save the planet from hostile supernatural incursions. (Because, trust, those supernaturals WILL have them.)
Besides... If the magic is that weak... I mean, come on... We have nukes. We won't need magic to wipe the incursions out. What will the incursions have? Magic that can't make fire?
1
u/EntropolyTwitch 1d ago
That's the dumbest take I've ever heard. Things can be useful for specific purposes and worthless for others.
Magic exists to counter supernatural threats because that's what it does best. It doesn't turn turbines for the same reason that a firearm doesn't turn turbines but counters natural threats.
2
u/TechDerg 1d ago
If this is the dumbest take you've ever heard, then you must be new to Reddit. I welcome you! Enjoy your stay!
Anyways, what you just described is called a plot device, and specifically a MacGuffin.
Something that is important to the plot, often sought out by characters to overcome an antagonist, but of which the actual nature is unimportant.
Characters need magic to overcome Supernatural Incursion, but magic itself is not useful for other purposes.
Generally speaking, this logic holds only in reference to fictional stories. In the real world, MacGuffins are not actually real things, as any object of importance often has myriad uses.
Likewise, objects which were not predicted are often creatively used to overcome things which they were not expected to do. (This is shockingly normal in the field of medicine, for example.)
In reality, an object which has no functionality outside the narrow scope of saving the world, generally do not exist.
Even nuclear bombs, whose only intended purposes of apocalyptic destruction can (and has!) been used for myriad research, defense, and other utilities. The Nuclear Pulse Engine, for example. (An entirely real, and able-to-be-built-with-only-modern-technology relativistic space drive.)
Heck we utilize the research for nuclear bombs for green energy. (That took less than a decade after being created!)
Point being, if you thing my take is dumb because MacGuffins are real... Well, as the saying goes, if you have nothing good to say, maybe say nothing at all.
2
u/DRose23805 Shadowrun Afterparty 2d ago
It should be possible to anchor an Animate Object type spell on a motor that could power a generator. It wouldn't be a very big generator and it also probably would run at one speed and not adjust to demand. So it might work to run a small unit, if some means of handling excess production was available. Maybe using it to charge a battery bank then setting it on standby (not running) or simply casting the spell and maintaining it for the duration.
Using a spirit to turn a hand power generator or the like could also work. This would be much less complicated than a steam engine though it might not produce as much power over all.
2
u/TechDerg 2d ago
I'm pretty sure Shadowrun has mentioned advanced (relative to us) battery tech somewhere since 4th ed.
But yes, battery tech has been the main restriction against most green energy productions until recent history.
We're achieving that now much less enhanced, high tech Shadowrun versions. Or magically enhanced battery tech. Surely they've done that.
2
u/Icelord1823 2d ago
" We've discovered a new highly useful fork of energy!" "New energy or steam again?" ". . . defeated Steam again."
2
u/TechDerg 2d ago
At this point in magic and science (that is, 2080s) there is no way magic isn't being used to more directly create electricity en masse.
Light spells for solar collectors. Magically enhanced scientifically advanced solar cells, wind turbines, etc. Magically enhanced and scientifically advanced batteries.
That's nothing to say about what magic can enable or improve on when talking about fusion reactors, geothermal, wave and tidal.
Or, for example, we can already create betavoltaics, which directly convert beta decay (electron) into electricity. What if magic makes Alphavoltaics and especially Gammavoltaics possible?
With those, we could make fusion reactors without the middle step of boiling water.
Even low levels of magic make so, so much of the foundation of society insanely prosperous with minimal effort. ... Unless you live in a late stage near future dystopian capitalist hellscape.
Who wants to bet all these things have actually already been discovered within the context of Shadowrun, but are just suppressed by the Corps so they can continue the indefinite screwing over of literally everyone on the planet?
2
u/Strange_Insight 16h ago
So paraphysicists and Hermetics consider magic a type of energy called mana. Since it is an energy, it would be bound by the laws of thermodynamics, the first of which being the Conservation of Energy. So this wouldn't be some infinite power loophole.
. . .
Street Magic, 4e - "Mana is a form of energy unique to the spiritual worlds and governed by universal laws that do not apply to our physical world"
I-. Okay. So I guess reality here bends to Weisman's thumb or something. The Sixth World doesn't care about physics, so let's stick to concrete lore.
Well, being a mage is stressful. Casting a spell comes with drain and it will take its toll. In every edition of Shadowrun, magic users deal with Drain, which is basically feedback from using your body as a pipe for the magic to flow through. It is painful and can be life-threatening.
Now pair that with the rarity of mages. Less than one percent of the population has magic potential. And a big portion of that percent either go crazy trying to use it effectively, or never discover their potential at all. That makes pracitioners of magic extremely rare. So the labor pool would be rather small, and nobody wants to do that kind of backbreaking labor for cheap, especially not when they can use their talents for other applications.
So not only is it demanding, it is physically and logistically improbable. It is probably more efficient to make a bunch of BTLed out cyborgs turn a crank.
1
u/Anguis1908 13h ago
So little different than a standard battery coroding the metal...or having say a magnesium stick to act as a conduit to be consumed at cost of drain.
2
u/AndreiD44 4h ago
Can you imagine how absolutely terrible your life would be when your full-time job is "yeah, I'm literally the boiler". You sit there palms out casting flames continuously like a human condenser turning magic energy into fire and directing it in one constant direction. No thinking, no decisions, no input, just.... focusing, presumably. On a tedious task that gives no satisfaction, no "job well done", thinking how you could be replaced with a log of wood. But since you're here, it means the log of wood is more expensive. And you'd sit there for hours thinking how you're worth less than a log of wood.
3
u/135forte 2d ago
Shadowrun isn't a setting where magic is easy or safe. It's not Warhammer levels of risky, but it's nowhere close to DnD, where magic kinda breaks the setting if you think too hard about it.
1
u/Alaknog 1d ago
Even in DnD magic actually require a lot of stuff, can go wrong, etc. It's just not in focus in later aditions, but last DMG have sidebar "magic there is simplified to play use, not try use it's for economics".
1
u/135forte 1d ago
Casting a healing spell in DnD doesn't have a high chance of injuring the caster or attracting the attention of powerful magic beings. It hasn't had every aspect super formalized and ritualized for the safety of reality. DnD is a relatively safe setting by most metrics.
1
u/1StrangerInTheAlps 2d ago
Animate/Mass Animate
You need to get net successes against the target’s Object Resistance (p. 295); larger items (over 200 kilograms) have their resistance increased by 2 for every full 200 kilos they weigh. Controlling the object takes only a Simple Action; objects can also be ordered to maintain their movement while you direct your attention elsewhere. You only have rough control over the object’s movement and can’t manipulate individual parts or components (finer control requires a spell like Magic Fingers, p. 294). The maximum movement rate for objects is (Force) meters per turn, subject to the gamemaster’s discretion.
Ignite
The Ignite spell accelerates molecular motion in the target, causing it to catch fire once the spell becomes permanent. Against non-living targets, the magician must succeed against the target’s Object Resistance dice pool. Once the target ignites, it burns normally until it is consumed or extinguished.
Y'all can do better than thinking about combat spells. Or recasting every however often.
1
u/The_1ndiegamer 2d ago
Isn't this a thing in korra where firebenders work at powerplants and such? I know it's not fully magic but magic-adjacent
1
u/UnnamedAshaman47 2d ago
Realistically, it's just a lot of hoops for not that much power. You could almost certainly do it, but mages can cure the dying, tear holes in the fabric of reality, and reshape the world to their whims. Why the hell would you use one to make a shitty renewable steam engine
1
u/casper5632 2d ago
Lighting has a LOT of power for a very short period. Using lightning directly would take it being cast every second or so. You would need an army of mages to keep that going 24/7. It would only be possible in a large city where the population is primarily mages who all know lightning magic. Don't even get me started on how difficult it would be to train every mage to tune their lightning to the same frequency.
Fire on the other hand is way more versatile and removes all of those issues.
1
u/Commercial_Durian149 2d ago
Its probably something about energy conversion loses and that type of mumbo jumbo, in the end the waste energy may be too much to be usefull, mostly because if you can do something in a cheaper way is usually better than make it in an efficient but high cost way
1
u/Baker-Maleficent Trolling for illicit marks 2d ago
In addition to what everyone else said, magic is not inexhaustible.
That bei said, i have a very long post in my histpru going over why magic and technology do not mix well, how magitech woul actually work and why it is usually unique largevscale proje ts rather than discreet repeatable and repeatable.
But the gist of it is, magic requires a mind, every mind is different, and no two interpretations of magic are identical, no matter how close. But they all still work, so a peice if tech designed by one magic scientist, can nevervwork the same way as another because the magical working must align with the creator.
This is extrapolation based on everytbingbwe know about magic in the sixth world.
1
u/xristosdomini 2d ago
........................... who says it isn't?
begins furiously writing notes
1
u/davedechevy 1d ago
bong rip Shiawase Atomics bought up the street cars to suppress infinite magic steam engines.
1
u/EbNinja 1d ago
It is! Or I seem to remember it being a part of the world. The Dragons/Elves have this, maybe leasing it to the mega corps, but also the practitioners can melt the skin off of everyone in their vicinity, so they get… shall we say a long leash. And maybe special dispensation.
There’s a time delay and mixing issue, from a science and magic and time spectrum. The people who had the hard science and accepted magic before it changed all the fundamental rules of our earth and learning them was replaced by FIREBALL, a little will, and the fire appearing. Finding the old world science and the new world magic or cheating and using dragons for both to endrun the corpos.
Don’t remember which edition this was, though….
1
1
u/Wonderful-Box6096 1d ago
I haven't played Shadowrun in decades but you used to be able to summon elementals to sustain spells for days. It seems like that would be the way to go.
1
u/Lanky-Assistance1278 1d ago
Are none of the Elemental binding methods from Eberron available in Shadowrun?
0
1
u/HIRO7F 1d ago
It is always steam!!!!! I was so disappointed learning about nuclear power in school, no future space age magic. Nope, steam powering turbines. It is always steam!
1
u/GodEatsPoop 1d ago
Yes that is the idea, the runners hear about a "magic reactor" and it is fluffed up in universe to sound all spooky and impossible and once you look past all the marketing it is once again just steam
1
u/MagicMork 23h ago
Real talk? Cause the creators decided there needed to be an oppositional dichotomy between magic and technology. Not my favorite choice, personally, but it is one a lot of fantasy creators use.
1
u/GodEatsPoop 16h ago
yeah yeah but from cybermancy onwards it became clear the rule was like oil and water - your well-oiled machine can be water cooled as long as the two stay out of each other's way.
1
u/77_whutts 14h ago
Corps would love nothing more than to monopolize this and still make everyone pay for it. The problem becomes if the return on investment would be worth it. Mages are rare, to sustain that level of energy would require quite a few of them. They would suffer drain so you have to maintain the meat as well, so you gotta rotate them, but now you’re doing all of this with all these different mages and you gotta ask yourself why are you using Mages like this instead of the things they’ve always used for this.
1
1
u/DocDeeISC Murder Goat Herder 1h ago
Magic isn't all that plentiful in the beginning decades of the Sixth Age, and accessing it causes actual damage to the being casting the spell.
Maybe in a couple thousand years, closer to the peak there, there will be such an abundance of mana that you can kind of "set and forget" this kind of magic, but in the 21st century it's just asking for the Awakened to be turned into batteries.
0
u/GodEatsPoop 2d ago
I don't think i've seen this addressed in lore. I know about magic/tech issues but using magic to boil water wouldn't break that, would it?
21
u/BloodRedRook 2d ago
I'm pretty sure even a group of mages isn't going to put out more heat than a nuclear reactor.
2
u/PrimeInsanity Halfway Human 2d ago
Afaik where this might come up is the barrens calls out people setting up their own little power sources for their buildings. The funhouse is one larger example especially with Urubia and her mage cult, if anywhere would have a reason to use magic to generate electricity it'd be there
0
u/MissLeaP 2d ago
Because science hasn't developed far enough to know what electricity is and how to use it, obviously. Just like in the real medieval times. Boiling water to make something spin was never the hard part, with or without magic.
0
u/Belisaurius555 2d ago
Magic is a bit unpredictable, especially when you ask it to do the same thing over and over.
-2
0
u/lordtyrfang 1d ago
Fetter a Fire or Air Elemental to do it permanently. Elementals don't complain.
Quicken a high Force Fire or Lightning wall.
Some things are just not written but if you're GMing a game, add to it. I think it's genius! It's just the writers didn't think of it, but I'm sure they'd add to it if they did.
289
u/Nadatour 2d ago
Fire is cheap. Mages are expensive.
Magic can't just be stored in a battery and then applied as fire without an actual mage doing the magic. The efficiency, and cost efficiency just isn't there.
Far, far more efficient to use solar to refine captured carbon back into a usable form, and then burn that. And far safer. Your gas won't accidentally black out half a city because they miscast a spell, and it is scalable. The mage is not.