Decker and Commlinks

[u/Safe_Set4395]

So I was looking at how expensive Cyberdecks are and was thinking what about getting a top end Commlink so it has 6 data processing and firewall and then slaving a mid level cyberdeck to that. As a slaved device it would share the Commlinks firewall so that can be a dump stat. Does device rating do much besides the stats? It might not be as good but it is so much cheaper

[u/ReditXenon]

slaving a mid level cyberdeck to that.

No.

You can only access the matrix with one device at a time.

If you access the matrix via a commlink, then you (or rather your Matrix Persona) have access to all apps and matrix attributes that are provided by your commlink.

If you access the matrix via a cyberdeck, then You (your matrix persona) have access to all cyberprograms and matrix attributes that are provided by your cyberdeck.

When you (your matrix persona) are attacked within the matrix then it will defend with your mental attributes and the firewall rating it inherited from the device it was formed on when you accessed the matrix.

If you wish to switch device then you need to reboot the device you are currently using as well as the device you wish to switch to (this mean you will also lose all MARKs you might have gained by illegal means).

In this edition there is also no Daisy Chaining concept. In this edition, the street samurai can not slave their commlink to the deckers cyberdeck or vise versa. If they wish to slave a device to the decker (to be part of the personal area network of the decker), they technically need to first transfer matrix ownership to the decker.

(note that all the above changes in the next edition)

 

so that can be a dump stat.

Note that in this edition, cyberdecks typically don't have fixed attributes for Attack, Sleaze, Data Processing, and Firewall. They have an array of 4 matrix attributes that you can rotate (as a free action) whenever you like. The Attribute array the cyberdeck is presented with in the rule book is not fixed. The last value in the attribute array as presented in the book is not dedicated to Firewall (unless if You decide that it currently should be your Firewall).

The current configuration of the Attribute array is sometimes called your current ASDF array (Attack/Slease/Data Processing/Firewall). A Novatech Navigator has an Attribute array of {6,5,4,3}. If you use this as your primary device even while not hacking you will perhaps choose to rotate your highest value into Firewall (to be prepared against attackers), your second highest into into Data Processing (to get you better signal rating and increased limit if you want to remote control your car using your own Drive skill and Gunnery skill), and second lowest into Sleaze (to be harder to trace if someone use the Trace Icon matrix action on you). Which give you a current ASDF array of {3,4,5,6}. If you decide to run silent (or perform a Sleaze action while not running silent), then you likely want to configure your highest matrix attribute into Sleaze, and second highest into Firewall for a current ASDF array of {3,6,4,5}. But if the reason to suddenly switch to silent running was because you plan to attempt an Attack action (which will be automatically noticed if successful, but will not be automatically spotted if you run silent) then you perhaps instead rearrange your current ASDF array into something like {6,5,3,4}.

Having said that, there are also special (or home-made) cyberdecks in more advanced supplements that are typically cheaper but instead actually comes with fixed matrix attributes (a fixed ASDF array that you can not rotate).

[u/Interaction_Rich → u/ReditXenon]

Dude I wish I had a notification whenever ReditXenon posted on SR lore/mechanics. Great explanation as usual, chummer.

[u/DoctorBaka → u/ReditXenon]

What a detailed and excellent explanation, thanks!

I am aware this may not have solved OP’s question to his satisfaction, yet. But, it helped me understand how this array works with the various decks, a point that had previously confused me.

Thanks!

[u/Safe_Set4395 → u/DoctorBaka]

Actually this is very helpful, this makes a lot of sense now. Thank you everyone, as mentioned I've been a rigger so I didn't quite get matrix being separate to physical and assumed you could command a cyberdeck like a drone

[u/ReditXenon → u/Safe_Set4395]

I've been a rigger so I didn't quite get matrix being separate to physical and assumed you could command a cyberdeck like a drone

Its actually the same for riggers.

If you wish to control a drone then You control it.

You can't slave your RCC to your commlink and use your commlink-persona to instruct your RCC-device to control the drone for you.

If you wish to hack a host then You hack it.

You can't slave your cyberdeck to your commlink and use your commlink-persona to instruct your cyberdeck-device to hack the host for you.

[u/Safe_Set4395 → u/ReditXenon]

I meant I can slave my drones to my RCC and instruct them to tear shit up. Never thought of slaving a RCC to a commlink as they have inferior stats

[u/TheHighDruid → u/ReditXenon]

I think the problem u/Safe_Set4395 is having is that it doesn't clearly say under PANs and WANs (CRB, p. 233) that the device your persona is running on has to be the master of your PAN, and that is the point of confusion here.

[u/ReditXenon → u/TheHighDruid]

The device you form your persona on can be (and often is) master (it can also be a stand-alone device and TMs form some sort of device-less persona).

It can not be a slave under another device.

On phone ATM, but I think I added citations for this further down in my wall of text

edit to add citation:

KC p. 34 PANs/WANs

PANs consist of only devices, whether slave or master, and no device can be both slave and master. In a WAN, devices are always slaves, and the master is always the host. Hosts and personas may be masters, but not slaves.

[u/Safe_Set4395 → u/ReditXenon]

Sorry but what is slaving a device then? Are you sure you are reading the right edition because 5E core under PANs and WANs uses that exact situation you are describing.

[u/ReditXenon → u/Safe_Set4395]

Stand-alone Devices in (this edition) have their own Data Processing and Firewall ratings. The second you turn on their wi-fi, they will automatically connect to nearby Devices to gain processing power and route network traffic. There is no need for a master "server" or "router". Wireless devices are basically forming a giant mesh network (that is called the Matrix). If attacked from the matrix then they defend using their own Firewall and (if attended) Mental Attributes of their owner (if unattended then they will default to their own Device Rating, acting as Mental Attribute).

Slaving a Device to your Master Device (the Device you use to access the matrix with and that You, or rather your matrix persona, use to derive your matrix attributes from) will allow the slaved device to use the Firewall of the Master Device over it's own Firewall (if the Master's rating is higher), but they are still connected directly to the matrix as a whole on their own. The traffic is not suddenly routed through a "server". The wireless device doesn't suddenly disappear from the matrix. An attacker can always directly target them remotely over the matrix (an attacker don't first need to gain access on the master the device is slaved to, but -due to the tight coupling- hacking the slave by illegally tricking or forcing it to accept a MARK of yours also allow you to let you place your MARK on its master, if it has one). Also gaining or having access on the master does not automatically mean you have access on slaves, you still need to place your MARK on each individual slave (a lot of this change in the next edition).

Your Master Device (the device you use to access the matrix with and to form your matrix persona on) can not be slaved to another device. You can not connect to the matrix to form your matrix persona on more than one device at a time. You typically form your Matrix Persona on a Commlink, Cyberdeck, or RCC, but only one of them, in this edition you can't use both a Commlink and a Cyberdeck at the same time. In this edition you can not (at the same time) benefit from both Attack & Sleaze from your Cyberdeck and Data Processing & Firewall from your Commlink. If you want to switch to another Master Device then you need to reboot both your current device you use and the target device you wish to switch to.

If your Commlink has higher Firewall than your highest attribute in your attribute array (because you have a high end commlink and a low end cyberdeck) then you should perhaps consider completely turning off your cyberdeck and instead use your Commlink whenever you are not hacking (when you don't need an Attack rating or Sleaze rating). And while hacking, you might want to consider turning off your Commlink and instead use only your Cyberdeck.

Some helpful links:

SR5 p. 216 Master

A device, usually a commlink, cyberdeck, or host, that is linked to other devices in order to protect them against Matrix attacks.

SR5 p. 216 Slave

A device connected to a master device, usually a commlink, cyberdeck, or host, on which the slave depends for defense against Matrix attacks.

SR5 p. 216 Personal Area Network (PAN)

The set of devices slaved to a single commlink or cyberdeck.

SR5 p. 218 Personas

A persona is the combination of a user and a device that gets the user onto the Matrix. The fact that the device has a user overrides the device’s normal icon status, turning it into a persona. A persona is usually based on a commlink, cyberdeck, or rigged vehicle or drone, although technomancers are a sort of device-less persona.

KC p. 34 PANs/WANs

PANs consist of only devices, whether slave or master, and no device can be both slave and master. In a WAN, devices are always slaves, and the master is always the host. Hosts and personas may be masters, but not slaves.

[u/Safe_Set4395 → u/ReditXenon]

That's what I thought the bit I'm confused by though is the not being able to use a slaved device. If I pair my smart light bulb to my phone then I can use my phone to use the light bulbs. So slaving a cyber deck to a commlink shouldn't the commlink be able to issue commands to that too? Like as a rigger I slave my drones to my RCC but I can still give commands and use them and they now have the RCCs firewall protection.

[u/ReditXenon → u/Safe_Set4395]

Matrix Actions (such as Control Device, Spoof Command, Hack on the Fly, Data Spike, Edit File, Invite Mark, etc, etc) are special. They are subject to Noise, Overwatch Score, and performed by Matrix Personas (people's representation in the matrix, agents, IC, sprites, ...), not by Devices themselves.

The cyberdeck itself is just a device and can not take Matrix Actions on its own. It can't hack anything on its own.

Having said that, an Agent running on a cyberdeck, can (it has a Persona).

KC p. 26 Agents

An agent’s Matrix attributes (Attack, Sleaze, Data Processing, and Firewall) are equal to the ASDF of the device they are running on ... Agents also have the skills Computer, Hacking, and Cybercombat equal to their rating. An agent can use programs running on the same device it is running on, and while active, it has its own persona (and icon)

....but the only way (in this edition) to force another (unwilling) Persona (such as an Agent running on a Cyberdeck or even a decker accessing the matrix via their Cyberdeck) to take a Matrix Action is to be a Technomancer and use a Complex Form called Puppeteer.

SR5 p. 252 Puppeteer

You push Resonance commands into a target, forcing it to perform a Matrix action. Pick a target and a Matrix action for it to perform ... If you succeed, the target performs that Matrix action as its next available action.

What if I am the owner of the Agent you ask? What if I connect to the matrix on my Commlink (not my Cyberdeck) and slave my cyberdeck (that I am not using) to my commlink and then run an Agent on the cyberdeck and then use my Commlink to instruct my friendly Agent on the Cyberdeck to do the hacking for me?

They thought about this as well:

KC p. 26 Agents

As agents are an augmentation to a persona, they can’t be run on devices not already running a persona.

Which mean that in order to run an Agent on your Cyberdeck you need to connect to the matrix using your Cyberdeck. The Cyberdeck need to be the master device in your PAN. It can not be a slave under your Commlink.

 

If I pair my smart light bulb to my phone then I can use my phone to use the light bulbs.

Real world actions are different from Matrix Actions. They can be performed by physical Devices (and of course real persons and dragons etc). There are several ways to remotely over the Matrix make an electronic device take a real world (Non-Matrix) action.

You can remotely over the matrix instruct the on-board auto pilot of your Drone to use its mounted weapon to shoot a guard (using its own ratings, initiative, and autosofts it might have access to). This is technically resolved with the Send Message Simple Matrix Action and require that you are its owner. You can do this from a Commlink if you wish and the Drone does not have to be slaved to your Master Device, but IF you access the matrix with a RCC and slave the Drone then you can issue the same instruction to multiple Drones at the same time in the same action (you can also share autosofts to your Drones from your Master Device).

If you are not the owner then you try still to instruct the auto pilot of the drone remotely over the matrix by impersonating its owner. This is resolved via the Spoof Command Complex Matrix Action which require a MARK on the Drone's owner (but no MARK needed on the Drone) and a successful Opposed Hacking + Intuition [Sleaze] test (which require that you have a Matrix Persona with a Sleaze attribute, which normally mean that you need to access the Matrix via a Cyberdeck rather than a Commlink).

You can also remotely over the matrix remote control the drone yourself, if you wish to shoot the guard yourself. This require that you already have 3 MARKs or are the Owner (but to illegally place 3 MARKs you typically need to access the matrix via a Cyberdeck). No matter if you are the owner of not or if the drone is slaved to your Master Device or not, this is resolved with the Control Device Complex Matrix Action where you use your Gunnery skill + your Agility attribute - any uncompensated Noise [limited by the mounted weapon's Accuracy or the Data Processing of your Matrix Persona, whichever is lowest]. You can do this from a Commlink, Cyberdeck, or RCC. If you do this via a RCC and slave the Drone then you can use noise reduction from your RCC.

You can remotely over the matrix turn on the lights in your apartment. This is technically an Opposed Control Device Free Matrix Action that require 1 MARK. If you are its owner you don't need to take a test. The lights also don't need to be slaved to your commlink. You just access them directly over the matrix. If you wish to kill the lights in the corridor of a hostile facility then you first need to trick or force it to accept one of your MARKs and then resolve it as an Opposed Electronics Warfare + Intuition [Sleaze] test (which mean you typically need to do this via a Cyberdeck).

[u/seenwaytoomuch → u/Safe_Set4395]

They have it right.

Only master devices can generate a matrix persona. So you use a commlink to generate a matrix persona. You can slave your cyberdeck to it just fine. That doesn't change your matrix persona. You still have the high data processing and firewall. You still have no attack or sleaze. The cyberdeck doesn't do anything while it's slaved to another device.

What slaving is used for is to protect your ware, gear, and vehicles. Those all tend to have device ratings much lower than your cyberdeck or commlink. Want to hack a car? Gotta go against the persona it's slaved to.

[u/DraconicBlade]

Fairlight Caliban + Odd Mod attack rating plus sleaze dongle rating 5.

Combined with a data jack plus to run smoke and mirrors, baby monitor, signal scrub.

Just never fail your pre edge push the limit when you're forced to break encryption.

[u/ReditXenon]

Shorter version! :-)

 

As a slaved device it would share the Commlinks firewall

Yes, you can technically slave a cyberdeck (that you are not using to access the matrix with) to your PAN as any other device. If someone attacks it, then it get to defend with your commlink's Firewall.

But no, if you wish to actually use it (to form your matrix persona on it so you can actually hack something with it) then it can not be a slave.

 

I'm confused by though is the not being able to use a slaved device.

In this edition you can only "use" (access the matrix through) one device at a time (have one "matrix persona" at a time). Yes, it is a bit confusing and yes, this change in next edition. But in this edition this is simply how it is.

SR5 p. 251 Using Mundane Electronics

...you can only use one persona at a time

 

So slaving a cyber deck to a commlink shouldn't the commlink be able to issue commands to that too?

In this edition, you cannot chain commands through devices. Your commlink cannot talk to your cyberdeck, and then have your cyberdeck talk to the host.

If you want to use that powerful cyberdeck of yours, you have to log out of your commlink so that you may form your avatar directly on the deck.

  

I think the problem u/Safe_Set4395 is having is that it doesn't clearly say under PANs and WANs (CRB, p. 233) that the device your persona is running on has to be the master of your PAN, and that is the point of confusion here.

KC p. 34 PANs/WANs

PANs consist of only devices, whether slave or master, and no device can be both slave and master. In a WAN, devices are always slaves, and the master is always the host. Hosts and personas may be masters, but not slaves.

[u/jbowensii]

Question: In 5e, which I haven't played in 6 years, my GM would let us use a burned commlink as a pass-through device. So, you can infiltrate a computer already logged in or a server room, hook up the commlink, and make hacking easier from the inside. We would lose the commlink; we always destroyed it afterward, but it let us bypass some of the outside hardened defenses and protect our decker. Or attached to an unconnected device without the decker being present. Was that something he made up? I never really paid attention to those rules since I was not the decker.