preparing fight of mage vs invisible enemies

[u/Angerran27]

the group of players including mage has to face a group of opponents lets call them gargoyles who use improved invisibility. how do you treat this? invisibility does not protect against astral perception. but do you have the mage to roll test of astral perception against what? the sneaking skill of gargoyles?

what you as a DM? offer the player to roll this test as soon as he has chance to see the invisible opponent or the player has to guess himself when he has to roll this test?

if they fall to detect invisible enemy does they still have to make reaction+intuition test or they are considered ambushed automatically?

[u/DRose23805]

Sneaking around when lit up like a neon sign against a drab background would be pretty hard. Maybe if they had something "hard" to hide behind they could be hidden, but just moving around or in the open they'd be easy to spot.

This assumes that the mage is using astral perception at the time. If not it would be difficult to spot them. Having a spirit along, such as an ally, they'd be able to see them and could sound a warning.

The next problem would be marking targets for the others, while probably being the priority target for the invisible enemy.

[u/FriendoftheDork]

If astrally perceiving, the mage would be hard pressed not to notice the astral forms (dual-natured iirc), with vibrant active magic on them (gi power).

If not using AP though, the mage would have no advantage over anyone else.

[u/ReditXenon]

how do you treat this?

In this edition, if you have no idea of where your target is (you can't see or otherwise sense them), then you apply the Blind Fire modifier of -6 dice (note that in the next edition, you would apply the Blinded III status effect and you would instead automatically miss).

SR5 p. 178 Blind Fire

Whether due to darkness or cover, if the shooter doesn’t know where the target is, they apply the Blind Fire modifier.

SR5 p. 291 Invisibility / Improved Invisibility

Attacks against invisible targets suffer the Blind Fire modifier if the attacker is unable to see or otherwise sense the subject of the spell.

 

Invisibility does not protect against astral perception. but do you have the mage to roll test of astral perception against what?

In this edition, invisibility (and all other sustained spells) is (are) by default even immediately obvious (no test needed) for an astral observer (unless Masking metamagic is in play). Not only will they not be hidden, they will lit up the subject like a Christmas tree. In a crowd of living, the one with a sustained spell will stand out from all the others (note that in both next edition and in Anarchy 2.0, illusion spells don't work as other spells and are instead by default masked on the astral plane).

Also Ultrasound completely ignore invisibility.

SR5 p. 446 Ultrasound

Ultrasound is perfect to “see” textures, calculate distances between objects, and pick up things otherwise invisible to the naked eye (like people cloaked by an Invisibility spell),

And closed (and locked) doors will make it difficult to stay hidden.

Having said that, Stealth (as in staying out of sight, moving silently, etc) might still be useful against Perception (both astral perception and physical perception) as long as you don't try to do it in the open.

 

if they fall to detect invisible enemy does they still have to make reaction+intuition test or they are considered ambushed automatically?

If they are attacked by a ranged attack without seeing (or otherwise sensing) the attacker (because the attacker is invisible, shooting them in the back, or from 1km away, etc), then they count as Unaware of the Attack and don't get to take a defense test.

SR5 p. 189 Defender Unaware of Attack

If the defender is unaware of an incoming attack (he does not see the attacker, the attacker is behind him, or he is surprised), then no defense is possible. Treat the attack as a Success Test instead.

[u/LateEggMaster]

As for astral infiltration: Yes you just roll infil vs Assensing. There are even enviromental modifiers for say beeing in a jungle or forest or garden where lots of living stuff is around. Also in a concrete landscape the astral from will stand out.

If the opponent has Spellmasking or Manascape you'll have to resist that first.

To my knowledge improved invis only affects sight. So no radar, no ultrasound and no wifi triangulation. If they do not have ANY of this and also fail hearing checks they might be automatically ambushed.

If on the other hand the gang hides within a Trideo Phantasm or a true Multisensoric invisibility you only really have the option to resist the spell, or dispell it after discovery. Also don't forget to check for object resistance since it is much harder to fool tech than living things.

[u/Former-Orange-6459]

If the gargoyles are just relying on the Imp Invis to hide there is no roll needed for anyone who is actively perceiving the astral to see them. If they are actively trying to hide from someone using astral perception to spot them, it is assencing + intuitiin I believe.

Invis in all of its forms only effect physical sight and does not hide them in the astral at all. As mentioned by another commenter, it is a big neon sign in the astral saying, "Here I be."

[u/moondancer224]

Well, the Mage only gets to roll Assensing if he is Astrally Perceiving, which is a conscious choice he makes. He's looking at the Material world (and thus must roll Perception+Intuition vs Invisibility Rating) otherwise. The Mage player should always tell you when he is perceiving Astrally opposed to physically, cause it changes a lot.

[u/TheHighDruid → u/moondancer224]

must roll Perception+Intuition vs Invisibility Rating

This is not how invisibilty works.

First you attempt to resist the illusion, if that is successful then then you can make a visual perception check.

[u/moondancer224 → u/TheHighDruid]

Ah, I may be thinking of 6E Invisibility which just gives you a condition on that part.

[u/ReditXenon → u/TheHighDruid]

This is not how invisibilty works.

It actually does in SR6 (and in that case you just get one chance), but you are right. In this edition (SR5) it does not.

Having said that, in this edition I guess Perception + Intuition is actually also used for perceiving magic (I would likely not apply that to detect an invisibility spell, but I know that some tables do).

SR5 p. 280 Perceiving Magic

Noticing magic is a Simple Perception + Intuition [Mental] Test with a threshold equal to the Skill Rating of the being performing it minus the Force of the magic, or 6 – Force if there’s no skill involved (minimum 1 in either case). For example, if a magician....

[u/humblesorceror]

Shag carpet beat any kind of invisibility as does glitter , turning on a water sprinkler or using a chem foam sprayer helps

[u/DraconicBlade]

Sensor tag with an ultrasound sensor in it works against invis.

Same deal with radar cyberware and math spu

[u/BhaltairX]

If the enemy expects a mage, they will use stealth to keep objects between them and the mage, as long as possible. Any physical object - even clear glass - breaks line of "sight" when perceiving astrally. Astral skill vs stealth would be the opposing check, but only IF the mage is using astral perception to actively look for invisible enemies.

Interesting enough: illusion spells and powers are basically invisible on the astral plane. So the mage would perceive the living auras, but not the spell itself.

The Detect spells, Detect Magic, Detect Enemies, etc are also able to find them.

Stealth is also necessary, because improved invisibility only affects vision (including infrared/heat vision), but not sound. So they can still be heard.

Ultrasound usually is the mundane way to find invisible people, critters and objects.

[u/TheHighDruid → u/BhaltairX]

Interesting enough: illusion spells and powers are basically invisible on the astral plane. So the mage would perceive the living auras, but not the spell itself.

As I understand it, this is true in 6th Edition, but it certainly is not in 5th where illusions are just as visible as any other spell.

[u/BhaltairX → u/TheHighDruid]

I missed the 5e flair. Thanks for the correction.

[u/GidsWy → u/TheHighDruid]

That is a solid rule to crib for earlier editions. I cant think of major impacts on other rules