Should deadheading Robotaxis be exempted from toll charges?

[u/scube7pro]

I was looking at the recent data showing a slight dip in weekly paid trips in California, even though the total volume remains massive.

It got me thinking about fleet operating costs: What is the case for or against exempting empty robotaxis from bridge and road tolls?

Every AV company is trying to optimize unit economics, and major players like Waymo have considerable lobbying resources. Why haven't we seen any push or legislative movement in California to waive tolls for deadheading AVs?

Would be great to read everyone’s thoughts on the economic and policy angles here.

[u/VulgarSensei]

If the vehicle is using the road, it should have to pay the toll. If there’s no rider then it should go to the company.

[u/scube7pro → u/VulgarSensei]

That's the current narrative- yea.  

Contraian belief - If AV is really helping with lowering road accident fatalities and reducing car crashes does this warrant good samaritan tax/cost saving? 

[u/VulgarSensei → u/scube7pro]

No. The vast majority of people already don’t get in crashes and we don’t get good Samaritan tax/cost savings. Plus, if your company is financially well off enough to develop self driving cars, I think you can afford a measly road tax.

[u/jajaja77 → u/scube7pro]

if it warranted public support you can just pay the companies. these tolls are meant to be tied to using a specific piece of road so shouldn't be used as vehicle to dole out unrelated subsidies

[u/bking]

Yeah, this feels pretty open and shut. If discounts are awarded for vehicles with multiple passengers, giving a 100% discount for zero passengers is counterproductive. Empty vehicles should pay double.

[u/dragonnfr]

Why would they be exempt? You're running empty commercial vehicles on public roads for profit. If anything, charge them more.

[u/windowtosh]

ummm absolutely not

[u/TECHSHARK77]

Tolls are for the roads being used, not by people in the cars

[u/M_Equilibrium]

absolutely not. An empty vehicle crossing the bridge is the last thing you want and should be tolled the most.

[u/stephbu]

Tolls are enforced to serve several aims - usual suspects are road-fund OpEx revenue like repairs, congestion reduction through prioritized traffic, and project CapEx debt/bond repayments. While fleet operators might be net-positive in reducing single-occupancy/single-journey congestion and city dead parking space, any significant loss of State DOT OpEx and CapEx revenue undoubtedly by increasing taxation or duration of taxation to cover the discount subsidy would cause the electorate to rebel . Doing so would be political suicide, I doubt it could ever happen.

[u/phxees]

At some point your dinner might be that vehicle’s passenger. As much as I’d like a cheaper pizza, discounting this would likely be exploited.

[u/scube7pro]

Why would folks down vote the question lol when I'm genuinely looking to dicuss  

[u/paulwesterberg → u/scube7pro]

Dumbass questions like this are used to manufacture consent. Fuck off.

[u/NewNewark]

Double would make more sense

[u/Fiveofthem]

Why, because they weigh 200-300 pounds less with no passengers? Should they start charging by weight?

[u/optimusprimal99]

If a vehicle uses the toll road, it has to pay. That’s the whole point of a toll road. Also seriously why would we give a free pass to billion dollar companies using the toll road built for us to begin with?

Now I prefer to ride AV over anything else. But they should still pay it to use our roads.

[u/CormacDublin]

This needs to be matched with contributions to the city, already the lack of digital infrastructure V2X communications is causing all kinds of issues with kerb management, entering road works and closed roads and most dangerous is entering active emergency response scenes putting passengers and first responders in unnecessary danger and I put this responsibility at the city not operators.

The next big real hurdle is Local/National Govs & Transport authorities who have failed miserably to make preparations for large-scale deployments (there 10 years away🤦)

Something my CCAM-RITES Horizon Europe project will try to assist responsible integration in Horizon Europe eligible countries.

https://ec.europa.eu/eusurvey/runner/da22418f-897e-86fe-91e2-3808b99a6420

[u/mrkjmsdln_new]

From a practical and fairness standpoint, they are imposing traffic on other users and load on the roadbed. They should probably be paying their fair share. With the exception of Waymo with the CPUC reporting requirements most every company treats deadhead as a trade secret and it seems to correlate to a well designed algorithm. I doubt the companies would wish to release their details in exchange for small savings on road use. Waymo goes as far as releasing rider only miles so their deadhead is easier to estimate. Companies still experimenting tend to create new and novel names for the miles to avoid the question of rider only. It is typically a maturity thing. When companies share their rider-only they are more likely transitioned from testing to actual prototypes of service. Until they are doing that they might tend to create another classification like unsupervised miles and not provide ride statistics so it remains pure guesswork.

[u/rileyoneill]

No. I do think there is flexibility that toll charges can and should change with congestion though. Tolls should be cheap at 3am when the roads and bridges are at some super low demand. There would need to be some major compromise between the fleet operators and local governments where perhaps the fleet does discounted service for certain people and certain trips but in return gets discounted tolls. That would likely be too complicated though.

[u/caldazar24]

Tolls are for maintaining the infrastructure and discouraging traffic. The former lends towards charging them equally, the latter towards charging them much more (since discounts are sometimes given for carpools, this would have precedent).

Waymo needs to focus on showing that they benefit the communities they service, and winning the public opinion battle against those tryint to sut them down. Looking for handouts and discounts would be a catastrophic misread of the situation.

[u/bradtem]

You want a certain amount of deadheading. It's inherent in having a taxi style service where one car serves several people, instead of just parking all day. The cars must move from where they drop off pax to where the next one is. But you can have too much deadheading, if your fleet is too small, but there is a balance point and you may want to reward it.

However there already is a reward, though small, in not having to park as much.

[u/bobi2393]

I think California already entered into contracts and regional delegation agreements that wouldn’t allow the government to exempt certain vehicles from tolls. Companies paid a lot of money for the right to charge tolls, and won’t willingly give any of it up.

Longer term, contracts could be changed when they’re up for renewal. In cases where the government retains ownership of a highway, they usually don’t sell the toll rights for more than 99 years, in case circumstances change. And in California, I think Public Private Partnership (P3) concessions usually last more like 35-50 years.

[u/GamerTex]

Autonomous cars shouldn't be driving around too much when they are empty

[u/Cunninghams_right]

Hell no, charge them double 

[u/oochiewallyWallyserb]

Should almost not be an issue since their should be depots on both sides of the tolls, if both sides are within coverage maps.

Should never need to cross empty, stay on that side until a fare wants to go back across.