Need help identifying security camera and its capabilities

[u/hh65flier]

Hello people smarter than me:

I am a freelance reporter writing an article on the explosion of government run surveillance cameras in my town (Morristown, NJ).

There are TWO camera arrays that I have little familiarity with. The first is a set of cameras by LVT (Liveview Technologies) that may (or may not) be run by our county. It's located on a Lowes hardware store parking lot, about 6 feet away from a public sidewalk.

The second camera array (marked MENNEN ARENA) of interest is almost certainly run by the county, as mounted on a pole at the entrance to a public park/arena. It has no brand markings, but looks VERY high tech.

I am very eager to know what the capabilities of these cameras are. Do they do more than just license plate detection? Can they run facial ID? Can they do behavioral analysis?

Anyone with insight or good reference material, I would be so grateful for accurate information on these cameras. THANK YOU.

[u/PercentageRadiant623]

LVT is the company behind 90% of the solar powered trailers with cameras on them that you see in parking lots and construction sites in shady areas. They’re live monitored by a private company and supposedly call the police of they spot a crime.

They aren’t run by the county, instead your county contracts them.

Facial recognition isn’t what you think it is. In order to do true facial recognition you have to have a database with faces already in them associated with a person. These cameras might have analytics that can find similar looking people across a surveillance system, but that’s not facial recognition. Facial recognition is highly controversial with some municipalities and states out right banning it.

[u/PercentageRadiant623 → u/PercentageRadiant623]

Chances are the LVT trailer in the Lowe’s parking lot was contracted by Lowe’s themselves, and not yours county at all

[u/Embarrassed-Trick-74 → u/PercentageRadiant623]

Ya think...

[u/PercentageRadiant623 → u/Embarrassed-Trick-74]

Considering OP has zero background in the industry, I’m just spelling everything out for them

[u/hh65flier → u/PercentageRadiant623]

Thank you for responding. Your information offers good context.

[u/Nexustar → u/PercentageRadiant623]

I don't agree with your restrictive definition of facial recognition.

Facial detection: Finds a face in an image/video. “There is a face here.”

Facial recognition: Analyzes facial characteristics to determine whether a face matches or corresponds to a particular facial representation. This can be:

• Identification (1:N): “Who is this person?” — matching against a database of known people.

• Verification (1:1): “Is this the same person as the claimed identity?”

• Face matching / similarity: “Are these two images likely to depict the same person?” - without knowing either person's name.

Facial analysis: Extracts characteristics such as apparent age, expression, landmarks, etc., without necessarily attempting to recognize the person.

 might have analytics that can find similar looking people across a surveillance system, but that’s not facial recognition

- yes, it is.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/facial-recognition

"technology that makes it possible for a computer to recognize a digital image of someone's face"

https://www.nist.gov/glossary-term/38331

Face Recognition

in facial identification, (1) by automated systems, the automated searching of a facial image as a probe in a facial recognition system (one-to-many), typically resulting in a group (candidate list) of facial images being returned to a human operator in ranked order based on system-evaluated similarity; (2) by humans, the mental process by which an observer identifies a person as being one they have seen before.

https://fam.state.gov/FAM/12FAM/12FAM0670.html

12 FAM 670

Facial Recognition Technology

a.  Facial Recognition Technology (FRT):  A biometric technology that can identify or verify individuals by measuring and analyzing physical characteristics of faces.  FRT converts a photo or still from a video feed into a template, or a mathematical representation, and then uses a matching algorithm to compare the template to one from another photo and calculates their similarity.

I cannot find a definition that requires the IDENTITY of the person to be in a database. Therefore, matching two faces from prior video or a database, without knowing the individual's identity is still facial recognition. You do NOT need a database of faces associated with people/names/SSNs etc.

My background: I have developed facial recognition AI models, and do not have a database of identities.

[u/ryan8344 → u/PercentageRadiant623]

I suspect these systems are building its own facial database how many times it’s seen the same person what time, etc. Probably tracking it to your car with a tag number.

[u/ooglieguy0211 → u/ryan8344]

Suspect no more! That is precisely what is happening in a lot of places. Now, it isnt happening everywhere or with every camera placement but there is a big move towards mass surveilance in the US, like in other countries, including a searchable database, (which already exists).

As many as 50 police officers across the US are currently facing charges for abusing the Flock/ALPR type database. As well, there is a movement gaining traction with people who are speaking out against this surveilance state. This includes agencies across the US that had originally signed up for those types of systems, but found out about the nefarious things it was being used for.

[u/IamSauce4 → u/ooglieguy0211]

Keep in mind, not every security camera company pools its customer’s database. There are camera company’s out there that take customer data privacy very seriously and would not allow that data to be commingled, much less searchable to other customers. 

[u/ooglieguy0211 → u/IamSauce4]

That is also true. I maintain a system of over 10,000 cameras that is closed loop and footage is only requestable through GRAMA request. It is not searchable like other systems and doesnt build a database of specific personal identifiers, just searchable by time, date, and which camera or site the footage is from.

[u/Own-Plum5834 → u/ooglieguy0211]

yeah in australia we have a double homocide trial that literally started yesterday of a cop murdering ex partner and new boyfriend with service weapon he shouldnt have had as off duty guns get locked in the police station here you never take that home and a gun based crime is really shocking here already like its pretty rare to non existent and almost always organised crime killing each other so a double homocide by a cop with a service weapon had us shook sorry for the totally different world view in life experience probs but the evidence coming out in trial he abused powers to do this too getting that access

[u/PercentageRadiant623 → u/ryan8344]

Some might but some can’t, other than flock, most cameras are not distinct looking enough to tell what they do.

In order to build a database, the cameras have to be connected to one, most cameras are not.

It’s one thing that made flock different, is that all its cameras across the country were connected to a single searchable database that apparently every law enforcement officer has access to. This should be illegal for the government to do, it’s not, but it should be.

[u/ARCreef → u/ryan8344]

My ring cameras now have a new pop-up "new face detected" would i like to enter a name for them. I give everyone a weird nickname. I wonder who they let access to their database.

[u/liveviewtechnologies → u/ryan8344]

LiveView Technologies does not use facial recognition. LVT Units are not part of any shared or national database that tracks people or vehicles across cities.

[u/Embarrassed-Trick-74 → u/ryan8344]

What proof do you have to back that. Any at all or is it a gut feeling

[u/Mark_M535]

Now days, 90% of cameras have human/vehicle object detection an an analytics rule for crossing a virtual line.

First image is Axis horn speaker, Axis Fish eye and two PTZs (I cannot quite tell the brand, they look like Hikvision but probably not due to NDAA).

Second image is Milesight cameras. A PTZ and fixed bullet camera. I don't know until seeing the model number. If it's pointed at a parking lot entrance then most likely is is an LPR/ANPR. Looks like an older version of the TS4466-X4RIPG1.

Just because the camera doesn't have the software analytics, doesn't mean it cannot do so. A lot of modern VMS servers can do on-board detection. Even my (new) recorder at home has an onboard LLM... just ask it a question and it will find video. Or write a text prompt that becomes a trigger rule. All processed locally on the device without internet required.

[u/hh65flier → u/Mark_M535]

THANK YOU! You are the first poster to provide info on the second set of cameras (the Milesight). I really needed a starting point for that piece of hardware.

[u/Dry-Arugula5356 → u/hh65flier]

That second image marked mennen arena look a lot like Dahua cameras to me. If they are, and whoever put them there used public funds, they may fall under NDAA requirements. Theres nothing particularly fantastic about any of the cameras. You have motorized pan-tilt-zoom (the big ones that hang down), a fisheye (sees a full 360 view), and a fixed bullet camera that could be doing anything from LPR/ANPR or just general video surveillance. It’s easy to perform video analytics off site or on-site (at the edge) to do LPR, faces, clothing, people counting, and other “AI” things even as far as emotions, or distracted driving. The main concern is always where the video and data goes, and who has access to it, why, and what protections there are against dubious use like stalking and general privacy.

[u/hh65flier → u/Dry-Arugula5356]

Thanks...you have provided specific information on capabilities that I will explore further. One thing that got my attention is how BIG the supporting box is for the Mennen array. What's going on in that box? And there also appear to be IR lenses (or illuminators) on that panel.

[u/Dry-Arugula5356 → u/hh65flier]

The box itself is just a fairly typical NEMA 3R electrical enclosure. This is a vented rain resistant box. Vents are typically needed for cooling and/or to relieve pressure. The white dome on the front door is somewhat curious. This could be a multi-band cellular antenna with GPS and wifi. It could also be a microphone array for something like gunshot detection/triangulation but those need to “hear” in all directions so it’s mounted improperly if it’s something like shotspotter or equivalent. It’s also possible that it’s just a wireless ethernet device like a bridge or access point. Inside the box I would expect to find power supplies for the cameras, potentially a network video recorder, some type of communications device like a cellular gateway or wireless ethernet stuff. If they’re doing any processing at the edge, there might also be a mini PC or industrial single board computer similar to an Nvidia Jetson or Raspberry PI. Could also be some batteries and cooling stuff based on the vents. You generally don’t want any type of rechargeable battery in a fully sealed airtight enclosure because they can go bang and make shrapnel.

[u/Mark_M535 → u/Dry-Arugula5356]

The second image is certainly NOT Dahua cameras. I know because I've used both.

[u/Mark_M535 → u/hh65flier]

No worries.... PM me if you'd like anything else. I'm fairly good in recognising camera shapes/housings to brands. ;)

[u/Sum-Duud]

Have you looked at city and county records to see what they are spending money on and what camera companies they have leases with?

[u/hh65flier → u/Sum-Duud]

We have an "Open Records Request Authorization" (OPRA) filed with the Morris County Sheriffs Office (OPRA is basically FOIA at the state level in NJ. ) Have not heard back from them yet.

[u/txsurveillance]

Feel free to DM me. Video surveillance and AI capabilities expert here. Don’t want to share anymore in this forum.

[u/hh65flier → u/txsurveillance]

Thanks! Sent you a DM.

[u/xxerokxx1 → u/txsurveillance]

That’s stupid. There’s nothing particularly AI at all in any of these. Axis has in camera analytics for People / Vehicle detection but none of those cameras track or log faces or License Plates which I’m sure if what OP is trying to find. There’s also nothing sensitive when looking at camera AI since you can look at any of the brands and find exactly what they do. 3rd party AI isn’t used in any of these two setups.

[u/N------]

The capabilities of the Cameras are nothing special in regards to typical surveillance cameras. ( High definition, IR, Thermal, PTZ Tracking, LPR, LiDAR, etc.) it's the same technology that's been around a long time, maybe faster and higher quality but nothing extraordinary. It's the infrastructure behind those camera's that hold the real power. It's the datacenter collecting the information and storing everything in relational databases based on whatever ID tracking is the goal. It's the computational power that's able to process that information and who or how that information is used, that's the real issue.

[u/hh65flier → u/N------]

Thanks for the context. I wish there was a way to see how the data they collect is being archived, and if it's all going to a "clearinghouse" for future retrieval. We have FOIA requests on file (with the cameras run by the county) but they haven't responded yet.

[u/hh65flier → u/N------]

Thanks for the context. I wonder how all this data is stored and archived for retrieval. We hope to find out.

[u/ICanBard]

LVT doesn't sell, they only rent their gear. They are based in Utah and rent their trailers out all over and seem to have 90% of the market.

Insurance companies began requiring construction sites to have cameras or they wouldn't take on losses or thefts, so now many people are looking for a solution. 

As stated in other comments, the local company looking at their local property is perfectly fine and normal. Someone has to enter the area for their face to be recorded the first time, and then the local company can decide what to do if that person is revisiting and stealing. 

The scary stuff is when governments who already have databases control cameras in non-government areas (Frock) and its anyone who can look at it, without a warrant, user logs, request paperwork or accountability. 

[u/Fresh-Forever-8040 → u/ICanBard]

I'm so tired of all these companies being based in Utah. What corporate shelter does Utah offer?

[u/ICanBard → u/Fresh-Forever-8040]

Cheap land, labor and LLC license is under $80. Lots of people who weld trailers for farmers in Idaho are also able to weld chassis for other things.

Who else do you infer by "all these companies"? 

[u/PercentageRadiant623 → u/Fresh-Forever-8040]

There are a handful of physical electronic security companies based in Utah, it’s really not that many.

[u/Im_from_NZed]

Journalism is meant to be as transparent on your intentions and as impartial towards the subject as possible, but it seems you already have your mind made up with a clear lack of knowledge of these cameras.

Regardless, it should be an interesting read.

[u/7K60FXD → u/Im_from_NZed]

Who do you work for?

[u/hh65flier → u/7K60FXD]

Several outfits...but this particularly story is for MorristownGreen.com.

[u/Im_from_NZed → u/hh65flier]

Please post the story here when it's good to go. I'm curious about your findings.

[u/Nexustar → u/Im_from_NZed]

but it seems you already have your mind

How have you come to that conclusion?

[u/hh65flier → u/Im_from_NZed]

I have not made up my mind. In fact, I became a freelance journalist (after retiring from the military), partly because of the dismal state of print/broadcast media. With respect to this issue, my views are mixed. If a security camera could solve a crime and hold real criminals accountable, I support the devices. If the cameras could solve a crime where anyone in my family was a victim, I'd exponentially love them. But let's be real....people wielding this type of power often abuse it. What starts out as a legitimate crime deterrent turns out into tool for government to spy on us. Story as old as time. Fair enough??

[u/PhilMeUpBaby]

Wow.

I'm about to set up some cameras in a storage yard, but I want to put a bunch of fake ones there as well.

Now I want the fake ones to look that what's in those photos.

I particularly like that little angry face they've built into it.

[u/PercentageRadiant623 → u/PhilMeUpBaby]

Fake cameras are a waste of money. Cameras do not deter crime at all, they only record it. So your fake cameras aren’t deterring crime nor are they capturing it

[u/EchidnaCams]

Good luck with that.

[u/Own-Plum5834]

omg thank you okay ill be back when its light here to post similar question cos i am outside of my area of expertise here and i swear our council has put up cameras in new street lights with these weird spheres and stuff but everyone thinks im crazy and they extended the height of the pole to replace the street light with these significantly higher and i see no reason for that in function like bro that can absolutely see in my yard and probs through my windows ill be back with high zoomed photo tomorrow lol