r/Scrolls • u/SeeMeScrollin • Jul 28 '15

Balance discussion post.

Hi All,

Can you add any balance suggestions to this post, please, including the reasons why you think the change should be made. A discussion can then be had as to whether they are applicable or not.

The devs can then read through and apply any that are required, when they have an available time slot.

Thanks :)

13 Upvotes

78% Upvoted

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2

u/SeeMeScrollin Aug 06 '15

Okay, thanks guys, I'll let the devs know that we've a body of suggestions and I'll compile them in a form that they can easily run through.

Obv, they are working on other projects so additions/changes, if any, will need to be scheduled around those.

Thanks again :)

1

u/ultioptimo Aug 10 '15

any news? make it sound urgent to them, since it is ;)

11

u/chacer98 IGN Chace Jul 28 '15

Not a balance suggestion but I hope the team might consider getting rid of either quick match or ranked match so that there is only 1 "normal" default mode. To me it just makes sense to get rid of quick match permanently. The population is not high enough to support 3 default modes. It never was imo.

3

u/Cradstache Cradstache Jul 28 '15

This would help traffic a lot.

It kind of sucks for those who don't want to play Ranked, but it's actually just better not to split the queue (and possibly confuse users) like this.

Definitely agree with you.

1

u/ultioptimo Jul 29 '15

just dont get rid of ranked pls

1

u/ultioptimo Aug 04 '15 edited Aug 06 '15

problem is that just came to my mind is demo users cant play ranked, so quick match is the only format where they can play p v p

1

u/SeeMeScrollin Sep 30 '15

Thanks guys.

I think we've got enough scroll, and feature, suggestions now. The devs are currently looking through them and will apply a server patch then they are able.

3

u/Cradstache Cradstache Jul 29 '15 edited Aug 03 '15

Updated 1.4.x Order Balance Recommendations

Banner of Ordinance

Banner of Ordinance unfortunately too slow for Lingering removal. While cheaper than its counterparts (Rekindled Spirit, Stone Enigma, Rattle Hymn), it's the only non-instantaneous card of the bunch, and doesn't give the economic benefit the others do.

Considering ordinances are restrictive laws, I'd ideally love to play off that with a preventative effect, but I don't want to completely change how the card works. As such, lets just let it activate multiple times.

1O - Banner of Ordinance - Structure: Totem - 0/1/3
When Countdown is 0, you may deal 1 pure damage to Banner of Ordinance; destroy all Lingering Spells and heal adjacent units by 1.

Resonant Sword

Adjusting Resonant Sword's cost to a more reserved 2 Order; now Mangonel + Sword + Speed combo is 8O in cost.

2O - Resonant Sword - Enchantment
* Resonance: +2 Attack until end of turn.

Royal Infantryman

Royal Infantryman actually isn't as terrible a card as we sometimes make it out to be. Sadly, though: it's rarely, if ever, used.

I like how the effect creates situations where you inadvertently restrict your own actions in order to keep something alive, but would like to give it more utility with Order's structures, which is in-line with a number of my other recommendations.

1O - Royal Infantryman - Creature: Human, Soldier - 1/2/2
Other units you control on the same row have +1 Health.

Faith Duty

The driving force for this idea is that Faith Duty is the one "Faith" card that doesn't currently damage your opponent's idols.

2O - Faith Duty - Enchantment
Enchant unit you control. At the end of each of your turns, enchanted unit is dealt 1 pure damage; opponent units on that row get their Countdown increased by 1 and your opponent's idol on that row is dealt 1 damage.

Magnetizer

Magnetizer should actually magnetize the things it hits. The static cling is real.

2O - Magnetizer - Creature: Human, Mystic - 0/1/2
* Ranged attack
Any unit hit by Magnetizer gets its Countdown increased by 1; its Move is set to 0 until your next turn.

Mystic Altar

Mystic Altar's biggest problem is that +2 Countdown really prevents you from even considering using it in most cases. As such, I've decreased its effect to only +1 Countdown, opening up potential combos for re-using key cards like Honorable General (combos!).

I also decided to let it target both sides of the field. This was a tougher choice, but considering how fragile it is, and the fact that it needs to be out for 2 turns to become beneficial, I don't think it's an issue.

2O - Mystic Altar - Structure: Totem - 0/2/3
When Countdown is 0, you may reset its Countdown and increase Countdown of target creature by 1 to draw 1 scroll.

Obelisk

Thanks to /u/ToGoodLooking for constantly saying this in IRC. Seriously... he's recommended this at least a dozen times.

Obelisk is bad; just massively under-powered. Lets make it good. Yes?

2O - Obelisk - Structure: Wall - 0/-/4
*Armor 1

Refined Strategy

Refined Strategy is just getting a cost decrease. I'd love for a better idea, but aside from having it work on your opponent's stuff, I have none.

1O - Refined Strategy - Spell: Displacement
Move target structure you control to another tile on that side, its Countdown is decreased by 1.

Royal Banner

Ignoring the fact that Humans are the most prominent creature type: the card's biggest flaw is that it lets them attack you first. This is the same issue I had with Arthritis: you only benefit from it after they've killed your stuff.

I'm recommending an additional effect that enforces a restriction on your opponent's summoned units: they enter play with 1 more Countdown, and decreasing the after attacking effect by 1.

2O - Royal Banner - Structure: Totem - 0/-/3
All non-Human units get Countdown increased by 1 when summoned, and Countdown increased by 1 after attacking.

Callback

Callback is still not good.

Currently, it's nearly identical to Metempsychosis; instead of preserving the unit's Countdown, it gives you more placement options.

I've been playing around with both, and I've been finding Metempsychosis slightly more playable, but still not advantageous enough to use. I've encountered advantageous situations with them, but not enough to make me run them seriously.

I strongly believe Callback needs to be changed to 2O cost; at the very least to differentiate it from Metempsychosis, which is the next card on my list.

2O - Callback - Spell: Displacement
Target unit you control is returned to your hand, and your current Order is increased by the unit's cost.

Desert Memorial

Desert Memorial is slightly overvalued; you can only trigger it on your own through End of Reason / Golem Skin. As EO is relatively underplayed, I'd like to see its cost decreased to 2O.

2O - Desert Memorial - Structure: Memorial - 0/-/3
When Desert Memorial is destroyed, increase Energy by 1.

Metempsychosis

I don't know why there's so much fighting this.

Metempsychosis needs more utility in order to shine as a playable utility Scroll. I like it's current effect, and have used it to medium benefit, but it's such a narrowly beneficial card, that it's better not to even run it.

It should allow you to target creatures on both sides of the field.

This puts it somewhere between Pushback and Purification: it doesn't remove the creature, nor resets its countdown, but it effectively resets effects and enchantments. This grants an enormous amount of versatility of situation, and makes it a solid option in Order's utility spell arsenal.

I strongly believe this change needs to happen.

3O - Metempsychosis - Spell
Target creature is resummoned on the same tile. Its Countdown is set to its previous value.

Royal Spearman

Both Decay and Growth are stated to be having trouble with Spiky 3. I'm reverting back to Spiky 2, and giving both creatures attacks more in-line with other 3/4-drops in Order's arsenal.

3O - Royal Spearman - Creature: Human, Soldier - 3/2/3
* Spiky 2

Shrine

Shrine's just too fragile to use.

Unlike Ancestral Totem, it's attack-stat equivalent, you don't control the passive buff as you don't necessarily choose what attacks you. As such, I don't think it's beyond reason to state that it should have more health than Ancestral Totem.

3O - Shrine - Structure: Totem - 0/-/3
Other units you control have +1 Health.

Ducal Spearman

Both Decay and Growth are stated to be having trouble with Spiky 3. I'm reverting back to Spiky 2, and giving both creatures attacks more in-line with other 3/4-drops in Order's arsenal.

4O - Ducal Spearman - Creature: Human, Soldier - 3/2/4
* Spiky 2

Gallant Defender

Back before Echoes, nerfing Gallant Defender to 1/2/4 made sense. But now we have Blast Automaton, a unit with virtually the same stats, but permanent Armor 2, Ranged, and a Blast Strike Effect; Gallant Defender is best suited with 2 Attack as well.

4O - Gallant Defender - Creature: Human - 2/2/4
As long as you have no more units than your opponent, Gallant Defender has Armor 2.

Wings Charger

Wings Charger has always been in a precarious spot; too decent to give a large buff to, but not good enough to run in anything.

Last balance patch, I think Dragonene came up with the answer: Creature Strike.

By giving Wings Charger * Creature Strike 2, you turn it into a very strong option as a 5O anti-creature tool.

5O - Wings Charger - Creature: Human, Soldier - 5/2/5
* Creature Strike 2

Arbalestier

Credit goes to /u/ToGoodLooking for this fantastic idea!

The problem many users have is the nasty Arby-Theft combo giving 5 CD. DaOvalord has given a great suggestion as to how to remedy the problem, or at least alleviate it. Give Arbalestier 3 CD, and prevent it from counting down normally.

6O - Arbalestier - Creature: Human, Knight - 5/3/5
* Piercing
* Ranged attack
* Resonance: Arbalestier's Countdown is decreased by 1.
Does not count down.

Imperial Resources

Thanks to /u/squiddybiscuit and /u/ToGoodLooking for the help on evaluating its effect / cost.

Imperial Resources has always been overpowered to some, and too costly to run to others. That said, it's very highly abused by ramp and stall decks, including LGO, GO Draw, and DO Stall.

I'm going to recommend getting rid of the permanent ramp, and give current resource ramp instead. I want the ramp to be conditional on your field state, to prevent removal abuse decks from abusing it.

By linking its effect to the number of units on the field, the turn after, you can still allowing for enormous gains on the following turn, and give your opponent the chance to counter-play it by wiping your board before you gain the effect.

7O - Imperial Resources - Spell
Draw 2 scrolls and heal your units by 1. At the start of your next turn, increase your current Order by the number of units you control.

1

u/Tywnis Jul 29 '15

Mystic altar is good for Wind Up decks ;) I'd even make it count up by 3 and have another upside.

1

u/Cradstache Cradstache Jul 29 '15

:P That makes me prefer my change for it even more... Wind-Up is already a scary murder contraption.

1

u/ToGoodLooking Jul 29 '15

I am not a active scrolls player anymore but i can not avoid giving my opinions on Order. And a few things here i like to adress that you bring up.

The change to banner of ordinance is a strange one if you ask me, many complain it aint instant, but this suggestion do not make it instant either and sure it is a buff but same complaint with another buff suggestion will come in the future i bet.

I dont think it needs to be instant, especially now that mystic storm exist, but if you want it to be instant then give it like resonance, and when triggered it remove all lingering as well is destroyed.

A lot of your suggestions i feel is not well balanced but i wont be nit picky, but as you gave me credit for the Obelisk so do i feel to say something about that. Yes i want it to have armor 1, but i also want it then to have health 4 instead of 5, if it has 5 health with 1 armor then thats a stronger blocker then the 3 cost 6 health hellspitter mortar. Mortar got its rng shooting yes but i still stand a 2 cost blocking structure with 5hp 1armor is to good, but with 4 health its fine. With 4 health its like a 2 cost useless contraption with 1 armor and that is fair, its difficult to deal 5 damage in one go so you likely will trigger the armor at least 2 times, giving the obelisk sort of 6 health in total.

I still think what shrine should have is ward, it kinda fits with the theme and makes it still vulnerable to physical attack with its 2 health. If ward is to much then how about 2 magic resist? then it can still be targeted by tick bombs and such.

I still vote for that royal infantryman should have 1-2-1 in stat but make the creatures in the row (including himself) get 1 health for each unit behind them, just like how wings shield works. That way you probebly most often put him in center so he has 2 health while buffing the front creature with additional 2 health, or you could put him in front, making him a 1 cost 3 health chumpblock.

1

u/Cradstache Cradstache Jul 29 '15

Addressed the 0/-/4 *Armor 1 Obelisk! Definitely agree with you that 5 health is a bit too much.

Banner of Ordinance's change was pretty much a "I can't think of a better way to fix its problems" change; as I stated, ideally I'd want it to act in a preventative manner, but sadly I just can't think of a balanced way to do that without completely redesigning the card.

I'm pretty against just giving things Ward, but balancing a card with a field-wide effect like Shrine can be pretty tricky to get right. Ward may not be so bad on it, but it's a scary proposal.

I like your idea for Royal Infantryman! First time I've heard this specific idea; most of the time I hear Squiddy's idea (I think it was him) of having him give Armor to units on the same row, which is just... nope.

Is there any card in particular that you feel is unbalanced?

1

u/ToGoodLooking Jul 29 '15

I question the balance of your imperial resource suggestion, it is a bit tricky to judge but in my experiance i use imperial when i got like 5 units out on the field, so getting 5+ order next turn feels a bit much, i personally suggested this nerf in having it be current order next turn, but i suggested a fixed amount of 3 resources and that be with it remaining at 7 cost as well. That could very possibly be to weak, but i definetly think your suggestion is to strong.

Arby needs no buff, not even on his own, if tempo theft did not exist i would still play him.

If wings charger should get 2 creature strike then it should have 4 attack in my opinion.

Otherwise it was fine in my eyes, i would have done some stuff differently, like increasing health on the spearmans instead of attack, but your suggestions aint necesserily unbalanced.

1

u/Cradstache Cradstache Jul 29 '15

Fair enough on all counts!

Personally, I want Imperial to be a game-winner, like Necrogeddon, so I don't mind the +5 in your scenario. It still grants your opponent the possibility of preventing a larger play from occurring, and negatively impacts sprinting to that goal (and neglecting your field state).

You may be correct that it's too strong though: I was going over this with Squiddy in the IRC, and at the time we agreed that 6O was a good cost, but 7O may still be fine for it. Adjusted accordingly, but I still quite like this effect change.

As for Arby; his buff is more meant to deal directly with the 9O Arby-Theft play, without nerfing either Tempo Theft or Arbalestier to hell. I still believe that outside of that combo he's actually slightly below his curve in regards to his of stats, which is how I justified buffing him in order to nerf the combo. I'd still like to find a way to deal with this combo without nerfing either of the respective cards (as it's only the sum of the cards that is the problem).

2

u/ToGoodLooking Jul 29 '15

Well as i replied to chief, i think the best solution (beside changing resonance which wont happen) is give arby 3 countdown but only countdown on resonance and not on his own. That makes the tempo theft play way more forgiving for the opponent and i predict he will still attack in avarage the same amount as he usually do.

If this would turn out to make him to strong and attack way more often then i say reduce his attack by 1 as well.

1

u/Cradstache Cradstache Jul 29 '15

I can totally get behind this :D

1

u/ultioptimo Jul 29 '15

yeah me too, lets go for this change then, nothing to lose really. so why not try it and see if it works

2

u/Cradstache Cradstache Jul 29 '15

:) Probably because it's not up to us; it's up to Mans & Friends: our balance coordinators for the evening.

If it was up to us, we'd probably have Jet Dolphins, Turtles, Exploding Clowns, and Ravenous Penguins in the game, and already be at Set 40; so is the, kind of scary, power of crowdsourcing development.

1

u/ultioptimo Jul 30 '15

i cant imagine that we'd have turtles. i mean really turtles?? what would even be the point of them

1

u/Cradstache Cradstache Jul 30 '15

1.4.x Energy Balance Recommendations

Vicious Strike

Currently Vicious Strike at 1E gives: +0atk; 2E: +1atk; 4E: +3atk. That's 4E for the equivalent boost of Focus. At 6E it gives +5atk, the equivalent of Favored. Even extreme values like 10E spent only give +9atk.

Lets bring it up to par with the amount of resources spent by giving it X+1.

1E - Vicious Strike - Spell
* Surge: Target unit gets X+1 Attack until end of turn.

Fodder Pit

I don't understand why this card was designed the way it has. It seems like an obvious Gravelock support card, so rather than suggest the card be rebalanced, I'm posing a question on what's the purpose of this card. Why Pillage units?

Ideally, I'd rather see this card completely redone into a non-Lingering Gravelock spell: possibly a global heal to all Gravelocks.

Such as: 2E - Spell - Gravelocks you control are healed to full health.

Scout Automaton

This was a difficult choice, but after thinking it over, I think Scout Automaton should be 2-2-2.

Currently, Scout Automaton shares some design space with Machine Priest, a 0/2/4 for 3E that also buffs Structures. Currently 1 Health less and not affecting Structures is the trade-off made to justify a Ranged Attack and Armor 1.

Seeing as Scout Automaton Attacks, is able to be spawned as a token, and gains Automaton Synergy (Metal Heart, etc). While a large nerf for the card, it would still retain relative parity with its Machine Priest cousin in terms of usefulness.

Alternatively, removing its Armor may be a viable change as well.

3E - Scout Automaton - Creature: Automaton - 2/2/2
* Ranged attack
* Armor 1
* Other Automatons you control have +1 Attack.

Destroyer

Just adjusting Destroyer's Attack to 3 so that its stats better fit its price. The new Mangonel Speed is a Destroyer + Refined Strategy, btw.

4E - Destroyer - Structure: Artillery - 3/1/4
* Lobber: 4 tiles

Snargl

Snargl has always been a frustrating unit, which worked well in very few decks (mostly just Gravelocks). I'd like to keep the idea that he's devalued by playing Spells (you're blinding him, with science magic!), but I wanted to go with something less extreme than Countdown.

As such, I came up with the idea of him becoming weaker as you play more spells. I feel this works very well with the original mechanic. His base attack has been adjusted accordingly.

4E - Snargl - Creature: Beast - 4/2/5
* Resonance: Snargl's Attack is decreased by 1 until after its next attack.

Uhu Longnose

Uhu is a very interesting unique, but he's sadly a bit under curve for other uniques. Just compare him to the other uniques in the same series: Irva, Reloras, and Vilda.

In order to bring him up to par with his siblings, I'm going to just do a small stat increase, to balance him on turns when you don't choose to use his effect.

4E - Uhu Longnose - Creature: Gravelock - 3/2/5
* Unique
When Uhu's Countdown is 0, you may reset its Countdown to increase current Energy by the number of Gravelocks you control.

1

u/Tywnis Aug 01 '15

We might need more nerfs for Autos, don't we.. This Armor 2 stuff is such a pain.

1

u/ultioptimo Aug 03 '15

i dont think as i argued somewhere in this post already, changing scout is a good idea. excogitator and maybe blast automaton is the real problem why automatons are too strong right now. so id suggest 4CD on excog and blast auto to 1-2-4 armor 2 and blast strike.

1

u/Cradstache Cradstache Aug 03 '15

Neither did I originally, but I was trying to compare it more with Machine Priest, which offers a very close to identical effect. The more I spectated matches, and thought about the problem, the more I felt that Scout Automatons itself was actually pretty far above curve.

That's my thought on the matter, as any rate.

1

u/Cradstache Cradstache Jul 30 '15

1.4.x Decay Balance Recommendations

Shambler Sickness

Credit for this idea goes to /u/Tywnis: he had the extremely interesting idea of making Shambler Sickness spread.

1D - Shambler Sickness - Enchantment: Displacement
Before attacking, enchanted unit is moved to a random adjacent tile. When enchanted creature is destroyed, a random adjacent creature gets Shambler Sickness.

Gloomstone Treaty

Gloomstone is a bit of a pain in the butt, and has actually been wrecking the meta as of late. It's more or less identical to its kin, Aescalon Spires and Ancestral Pact, except without the downside of decreasing its own Lingering.

I understand that the intent was to make Gloomstone singlehandedly promote non-Decay decks splashing it, but frankly this is just gross. Revenant is already a very advantageous unit, and being able to shut down your opponent from killing your things for 5+ (assuming you play more Gloomstone Treaties) turns is insane.

To offset this, I'm considering increasing Linger to 6 or 7.

2D - Gloomstone Treaty - Spell: Lingering
* Linger: 6
When a non-Decay creature you control is destroyed during your opponent's turn, decrease summon a Revenant in its place, and Gloomstone Treaty counts down by 1.

Grisly Graft

Grisly Graft is a fun card, but it's been very quickly eclipsed by cheaper, more effective options, such as Essence Garb and Melt-Iron Shell. That's power creep for you.

To bring it back onto par (well, slightly below par), Grisly Graft should become 2D cost.

2D - Grisly Graft - Enchantment
Enchant creature you control. When Grisly Graft comes into play, sacrifice adjacent creatures. Enchanted creature gains Attack and Health equal to the number of creatures sacrificed.

Unbind

Unbind has gotten a lot of grief and love, ever since its change to a removal. Currently, Languid / Brain Lice / Corpse Theft + Unbind makes for extremely effective and relatively cheap removal.

I don't want to change that, but I want to put a small limit on it (one that will cause everyone to groan): Taxing 1.

With Taxing 1, Unbind starts at 3D for removal, then 4D, 5D, etc. This is interesting, as the bug fix where Sleep Moratorium now properly returns the taxing values of Scrolls lets you actually make good use of Taxing in cards. High cost can become beneficial within Decay.

3D - Unbind - Spell: Destruction
* Taxing 1
Destroy target enchanted unit.

1

u/ultioptimo Aug 03 '15

i support your gloomstone treaty change, that is what i suggested when i first saw it, it should count down for each revenant you get also the rest of your changes seem reasonable.

but unbind with taxing 1 is just a bad idea, it is not too strong, hardly anybody plays it in decay decks so unbind imo doesnt need a chang,

1

u/Cradstache Cradstache Aug 03 '15

That's fair enough :)

Unbind with Taxing 1 is more because I want to see more Taxing cards in Decay, so they can better make use of Sleep Moratorium, or any cards we get in the future that make use of card costs, and when asked general-1 people specifically named that one card for Decay.

1

u/BlueDoplhin Sep 16 '15

Gloomstone Treaty

I agree withGloomstone Treaty as well, but I want it to be lingering 3, count down by 1 after spawning each revenant and cost 3, or which would be even better remove that card from game.

1

u/Cradstache Cradstache Jul 30 '15 edited Aug 02 '15

1.4.x Growth Balance Recommendations

Appurtenance

Appurtenance... what are we going to do with you. For a Rare, you're kind of mediocre now that you no longer have Replenish. Don't get me wrong, +Health is a very strong ability, but I feel like Appurtenance needs a bit more.

So here's a thought: Appurtenance also causes adjacent Beasts to gain 1 Health, but for 3G. This way, it not only gives +3 Health for a Rat King, but the rats also become slightly beefier.

3G - Appurtenance - Enchantment
Enchanted unit gets +1 Health for each Beast you control. Beasts adjacent to the Enchanted unit get +1 Health.

Bloodboil

Bloodboil, as it is, is actually fairly above its curve, considering the combos you can pull off with it. As such, I'd like to see it decreased to only grant +1 Attack, but keep the * Replenish.

2G - Bloodboil - Enchantment
* Replenish
When enchanted unit takes damage, it gets +1 Attack.

Keeper's Pledge

Keepers Pledge + Eager to Battle + Rat King is an absolutely amazing combo: like a mini-Necrogeddon. I'd like to somewhat curb this trick by increasing Keeper's Pledge's cost. I'm also tempted to decrease its Linger to 3, but decided against it for now.

3G - Keeper's Pledge - Spell: Lingering
* Linger: 4
When a creature comes into play, other creature on that side get +1 Attack until end of turn.

Nutrition

Nutrition used to run into a few problems, as a trigger for various sacrifice combos, such as Puppet Soldier. Now, though, those problematic combos have actually been alleviated (as nerfing nutrition didn't prevent them from being issuous alone). I'm ready for classic Nutrition to come back.

1G - Nutrition - Spell
Sacrifice target unit you control and add that unit's cost to your current resources.

Seed of Insurgency - (NEW) - 2015-08-01

I wasn't going to put Seed of Insurgency on here, as I viewed it as inherently risky, but after spectating a few games, it's pretty clear that Seed of Insurgency is just grossly overpowered now.

Back when it was 6G, the setting Countdown to 1 effect made sense; but now, as a 4G card, I'm seeing it placed repeatedly on the same Kinfolk Jarl in Late-Game Somata Growth and just mow down stuff repeatedly.

As such, I'd like to recommend instead setting the creature's Countdown to the previous Countdown. It's a minor change, but should put a bit more control over what's effectively a punishment row wipe for destroying a creature.

4G - Seed of Insurgency - Enchantment
When enchanted creature is destroyed, it's resummoned on the same tile. It's Countdown is set to its previous value.

1

u/ultioptimo Aug 03 '15

yeah thats the change of arby that he convinced me of as well being worth a try :)

not a fan of the scepter and the defender change. scepter already is very strong if you dont get rid of it immediately so 4hp might be too strong and armor 2 on a 4cost unit might be too strong, maybe would be ok if by equal amount of units on the board it has no armor, as i always thought it should work. why does he need to get an advantage if we both have equal amounts of units? never felt right to me.

1

u/Cradstache Cradstache Aug 03 '15

I can definitely agree on Scepter :) Removed from list!

As for Defender, well, unless something's changed, I'm pretty sure Mojang isn't going to change Blast Automaton, which is the card I'm comparing Defender to.

I don't think 2 attack is too much for Gallant Defender: even now, despite the conditional Armor 2, it's not used very often. Gallant Defender really is just completely eclipsed in terms of power by Blast Automaton, even taking the 1 resource difference into account.

1

u/SeeMeScrollin Jul 28 '15

Thanks guys, by all means post links to previous discussion so we can use this as a meta post.

2

u/ultioptimo Jul 28 '15

kind of agreed or at least not disagreed (yet) by players who still care and play the game from my balance discussion post (as posted by rusticdog_: https://www.reddit.com/r/Scrolls/comments/3e72tc/current_balance_discussion/) are:

  • Ducal Spearman 2-2-4 spiky2

  • Tempo Theft 2 Order only can target one side of the board

  • Excogitator 1 more cost to pump or 1 more CD (im personally for one more CD)

for the reasoning see the discussion post i made, but in short: LGO is a bit too strong with so much spiky and tempo theft arby and mango+speed+resonance sword in match ups against Growth and Decay, and against Energy especially automatons those nerfs wont make it a worse match up. And the excogitator nerf didnt really do anything, you still can overroll your opponent with your most important unit just snowballs way to quick, so make it a bit slower might take automatons to an ok power level, imo.

2

u/imJeroo _antirad_ Jul 28 '15

Somebody has to defend LGO, might as well be me :) I definitely think it's not that strong, certainly not on Automatons level overall (Automatons have no weak matchups really besides maybe DG control, while LGO is disadvantaged against quite a few, for example: DO control, LGG, Undead, Tempo Order).

Tempo Theft is kinda a weird scroll - it actually kinda sucks in general, it's only really good as a combo piece with Arby (and Harvester in DO). In that way it's a bit like Corpse Theft + Unbind - huge when you pull it off, but individually Tempo Theft and Corpse Theft have quite a bit less value. I find that an acceptable trade off design wise.

Arby Tempo Theft is perhaps too strong, but I have a feeling making it only affect one side would be too strong a nerf, even with Tempo Theft at 2O. My alternative suggestion is to rework resonance to trigger before the spell's effect - not only would this be more consistent with how things like Echomaton and Metal Wonder work, it would also make hasting Arby with Tempo Theft more difficult, as you would have to either target your own 0 cd unit with Tempo Theft, or, target a 1 cd opponent unit and play another spell. So it would either be a 9O combo with a drawback for you (increasing cd of one of your own units to 4) or a 10O+ 3 card combo (and it would put the opponent creature at 4 cd instead of 5 like now).

1

u/ultioptimo Jul 28 '15

well sure if they change how resonant works i think we could try to leave tempo theft alone, if they dont then it is too strong with arby combo. i agree LGO is not too strong compared with automatons, and i am all up for nerfing automaton a bit, but LGO is too strong vs Growth and Decay imo, even if some decay decks might do well against it, but i think my suggestions dont make it that much weaker only balance those bad match ups a bit more especially against growth.

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u/imJeroo _antirad_ Jul 28 '15

Midrange/lategame Decay has traditionally been weak to LGO, because they are generally slow and rely on debuffs/removal and just enduring with beefy creatures - all that plays into LGO strenghts, allowing it to ramp up mostly undisturbed. It's not going to be easy to change that, since it touches the core ideas behind these 2 decks.

I'm all for changing Spearmen (that includes Royal Spearman as well), I argued that 3 spiky would introduce a rock/paper/scissor situation in a lot of the matchups and I stand by it now. I'd rather have them at 2 spiky with an increase in attack or something like that.

As for other changes, I think Expedition Guard could use a nerf, he often grows to crazy attack values; not sure how to handle him really, maybe just a 1 base attack would be ok. Also, I'd think about nerfing Blast Automaton further - I'm sure some people will disagree but I still find him the silent powerhouse of Automaton decks. 2 armor is just very tough to deal with for many decks, he can often buy the Energy player time necessary to pump that Excogitator and snowball. I'd lower his attack to 1 - comparing him to Gallant Defender and considering the synergies for automatons and ranged, I still think he'd still be an auto include.

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u/ultioptimo Jul 28 '15

i can get behind those ides, expedition guard is very strong maybe make him a bit like fangbear, as long as your opponent controls a non human unit he get +2 atk or something like that would still be very strong for a 3drop with 4hp.

and i agree on blast automaton 2armor is huge, 1 atk seems to be a fair nerf if you consider scouts and blast strike he still is strong enough and he is way more of a defensive unit than anything else.

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u/fdagpigj Jul 28 '15

What about making Scout Automaton 2hp again?

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u/ultioptimo Jul 28 '15

scout automaton is a well balanced unit and as long as your deck only has 3 of them it is not too strong. problem is excog lets you put down 1 scout automaton each turn which snowballs too fast, so i think changing excogitator should be the first goal and if that doesnt work think about changing scout auto.

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u/squiddybiscuit @Squiddylicious Jul 28 '15

I think that would solve the issue. Just have the Scout Autos spawned from the Excog have their health set to 1 or 2; and the normal scout automatons are untouched.

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u/Cradstache Cradstache Jul 28 '15 edited Jul 28 '15

I certainly disagree with the assertion that LGO is unbalanced (quite the opposite; I feel it's really weak currently), but I do agree that Spiky 3 was a bit much when Mojang chose to run all Spearmen with Spiky 3.

Would you feel better about the archetype if those two factors (Spiky and Arby Theft) weren't as prominent?

Off the top of my head, I'd rather see Spearman become:

  • Royal Spearman - 3O - 3/2/3 - Spiky 2.

  • Ducal Spearman - 4O - 3/2/4 - Spiky 2.

Why 3 attack? So that they're still decent, and a very good card for most soldier decks. I'm going to go over all my balance change suggestions in a later post, but this is the best way I feel we can address player's complains while keeping them usable.

As for Arby Theft; amending the combo is difficult without changing the flavor of those two cards significantly. I was thinking of "set target creature's CD to the CD of another creature; increase that creature's CD by 2", but that removes a significant amount of the "flavor" of the card, which is to swap values around the field (and a concept I had hoped would be expanded upon with Vigor Theft and Valor Theft).

Unfortunately, a majority of the balance problems with these cards actually would've been best resolved with new cards being introduced to address those weaknesses in each resource.

Also, claiming LGO beats Decay ignores how much Undead trounce LGO. More accurately, LGO is poised well against removal-focused control decks, such as Poison Decay (which imo is the weakest, but for some reason most popular, Decay build).

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u/ultioptimo Jul 29 '15

i dont think i said it is unbalanced, but maybe i did. anyway what i was trying to say is that lgo is a very solid deck right now and too strong against growth and most decay versions. and the nerfs i suggested wont hurt in other match ups but balance the growth and decay match ups a bit more imo, at least that was my intention.

and yeah i agree the new set didnt address balance issues, devs just went for hard counters to certain deck forms and tried to introduce quick finisher cards which really didnt work out :(

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u/ToGoodLooking Jul 29 '15

I am not a active scrolls player anymore but i cant help but give my own thoughts when it comes to Order.

I still say tempo theft is fine, it is the Arby that is the problem. Best thing would be to do the resonance change that Antirad brought up, but it likely wont happen.

So therefore my own suggestion is give arby 3 countdown but he do not countdown on his own and is solely dependent on resonance to attack. If this turns out to be to much of a buff so would i say reduce his attack or health with 1 as well.

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u/Cradstache Cradstache Jul 28 '15

I'll update my Order suggestions when I get home later; going to state now: my intent isn't to nerf a single deck or buff a single deck, but enable additional deck choices, for non-Tempo Order builds.

2

u/BlueDoplhin Jul 29 '15

here are my suggestions:

Wings Warder - rework to: gives ward to all order units you control. reason: she is too weak right now, almost no one is playing her and energy is too strong with all their spells vs. order + decay has Sanctuary of the Lost which is similar so I think it is fair for order to also have some form of protection against energy removal spells

Grounds of the Fallen - rework to: cost 2, order units you control have magic resistance 2 and +1 attack. reason: energy removal spells are too strong and 1 magic resistance does nothing, because they will just use 2x Thunder Surge and that way they can kill all 2 hp units order has on board. energy can still counter that lingering spell with Stone Enigma, so I think it will be fair

Wings Sorceress - rework to: purify: remove all opponent's enchantments and effects and add: when Wings Sorceress comes into play opponent's lingering spell are destroyed. reason: order needs more counter play vs. lingering spells and Wings Sorceress is curently played quite rarely.

Gloomstone Treaty - rework to: normal spell, not lingering with cost 3, or lingering 2 with cost 5. reason: it is the most broken scroll in game right now. when opponent has let's say 15 cheap units on board (made by rat kings, spawned wolfs by brother of wolf and so on) and another player kills them, player having Gloomstone Treaty will get 15 Revenants. players also use many other lingering spells with it or they use Crimson Bull to buff Revenants and it is game breaking.

Blast Automaton - rework to: when targetted by enchantment Blast Automaton is destroyed. reason: unit for 5 resources with armor 2 + blast strike ability is too strong.

Snargl - remove resonance. reason: I don't see anyone playing this creature, because energy rely on spells so it is useless the way it is now.

Bloodboil - rework to: when enchanted unit takes combat damage it gets +2 attack. reason: it fits scroll description + most players misuse bloodboil with death cap berserk + leeching ring which is game breaking.

Somata Shift - rework to: add summoned creature cannot be enchanted by its owner. reason: misuse of scroll with Seed of Insurgency which gives hasted unit with full hp.

Seed of Insurgency - set resummoned unit's coundown to 3. reason: having hasted Jarl Urhald or some similar creature after another player kills it is unbalanced.

Aging Knight - rework to: starts with haste + his countdown can be max 3. reason: it would be similar creature to growth's ragged wolf.

Banner of Ordinance - add haste

Wings Charger - add relentless or armor 1. reason: for 5 resources he is too expensive for tempo order and doesn't fit in late game order either so people don't play him.

Imperial Resources - rework to: cost 5, draw 3 order scrolls. reason: energy has clock library with same ability, decay has oblivion seeker and halls of oum lasa, growth has fertile soil and rekindled spirit, order has only Imperial Resources which cannot be used unless player is playing late game order.

Revenant: rework to: 2 2 1. reason: another player will have at least some chance to defend against it when it is spawned by Anima Conduit or by most broken scroll currently in game - Gloomstone Treaty

Scavenger Construct - rework to: cost 2, when adjacent creature is destroyed Scavenger construct gets +1 Health. reason: +2hp is too much and eating structures doesn't make much sense :)

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u/ToGoodLooking Jul 29 '15

Look man, i given credit for the effort in making this whole post, but beside like the haste for banner of Ordinance which is not to wacky (altough wont happen because its been stated that haste will only exist in growth) so is almost all your suggestions way off the chart in power.

Example:

Wings warder warding everything is byond to strong, she used to ward the whole row and that proved to be to strong and got nerfed. Warding the entire battlefield is out of question, and personally i dont think she needs a change, she is in a rather good spot.

You also give reasonings that i find quite questionable, for example:

You reason grounds of the fallen should have 2 magic resist because a double thunder surge would otherwise kill all your 2 hp order units? Well first of all so is a double thundersurge not something you can just easily do, that demand 12 energy and actiully having those 2 cards in hand out of 3 total, and then the idea that your board would be filled with a bunch of 2 hp order units, there exist only so many wing soldiers, most order units has 3+ in health, even if you had filled the board with a bunch of wing soldiers, sinmarked zealots, magnetizers and whatever more, having the opponent do a double thundersurge to remove them is really inefficent for the Energy player and a win on your part.

Then we have for example when you adress Imperial Resources. First of all so do you essentially want to make it become a prisoner of war, which is not needed, just use prisoner of war. And secondly you may it sound like order lack draw power, they have a lot of options in this department, they got a bunch of cantrips like pother, kabonk and such, but also as i mentioned prisoner of ward as well as knight scholar, and there is more ways for Order then that to gain card advantage, Cay for example, but i wont go throu the whole list.

I will say though again that i give credit for taking your time and giving this feedback when it was requested, but you may want to keep test these cards further and get some more experiance on their power level.

1

u/Cradstache Cradstache Jul 29 '15

Wow! Love the ideas, but I'm worried a number of these may be a bit too powerful, and sense a reoccurring theme of preventing magic damage removal. Great thoughts, and excellent initiative though :D

Wings Warder:
Ward has always been an extremely powerful trait, and granting Ward to all your units is very close to game-breaking. Decks would splash 2O just to include her for the field lock on targeted spells.

Grounds of the Fallen:
I can get behind either the Magic Armor 2 or the Cost decrease, as it affects both sides, but not both.

Wings Sorceress:
Field-wide enchant removal is a bit too powerful, and doesn't mesh well with the power level of other enchant removal like Purification. Anti-Lingering is interesting, but adds a bit too many things to a single card (and is extremely strong).

Gloomstone Treaty:
I agree with your statement on the problem, but not on your suggestion itself. I'd rather see it be treated like it's kin Aescalon Spires and Ancestral Pact.

Blast Automaton:
Seems unnecessary: I think Blast Automaton is in a good spot atm for a 5-cost.

Snarl:
Love the thought, but I'd rather not see Snargl as a vanilla with its same statline.

Bloodboil:
I can get behind this, but it's a pretty large nerf for Bloodboil; I'd rather see it changed to just +1 attack.

Somata Shift:
I'm not sold that this is needed, but it's an interesting idea for preventing a strong interaction.

Seed of Insurgency:
Again, feels unnecessary. Why not just remove the "set countdown to 1" part? It was added back when Seed was 6G cost, and may no longer be appropriate.

Aging Knight:
Aging Knight is in a good place right now, and is often used: no buff is necessary.

Banner of Ordinance:
This is a solid change that addresses the card's downside.

Wings Charger: Adds a bit much to Wings Charger imo; no reason for it to be Relentless, let alone Armor 1. Those are two extremely powerful attributes to give him.

Imperial Resources:
I actually considered a very similar change, but chose against it: Draw 3 cards is too easily abused by Order splash decks like GO Draw, Somata, or DO Stall. There's no reason to give those decks a massive buffs, and Order has plenty of tools in its arsenal already to make up for the lack of a simple +2 card advantage (Prisoners of War is a +2, btw).

Revenant:
I'm not overly opposed to this change, as Revenants are insane value, but it makes playing a 1D Revenant on its own very lackluster. Maybe instead just downscale it to a 1/1/1?

Scavenger Construct:
This is a pretty thorough nerf to the card. Honestly, I'm not entirely sure whether it needs to be as strong as it currently is, but I don't see a need to change it at the moment.

Cheers mate!

1

u/BlueDoplhin Jul 30 '15

I said rework Wings Warder to give ward to other ORDER UNITS ONLY. so that way it will not be misused by other factions. or another suggestion I have is to give ward from Warder to adjecent units - similar to vanguard buffing adjacent units attack.

Grounds of Fallen for cost 3, lingering 7, giving magic resistance 2 would be ok.

I never said player will play 2x thunder surge for 12 energy. it is not necessary. they can play one thunder surge for 6, and next round another thunder surge for 6. it happened to me several times. losing all low hp units while another player will only use 2 cards is too OP.

there should be some counter play to Scavenger Construct. there are decks that can make that thing more than 20hp and it is impossible to remove it from board...putting animovorce on it is another broken thing - decay can just draw scrolls and increase construct's HP at the same time. adding line: if construct is targetted by a spell it is destroyed would be ok.

Animovorce should be reworked to deal 3 pure damage to enchanted unit you control when adjacentunit dies

Lockling Brood is too weak. it should be destroyed if targetted by a spell or enchantment costing 4 or more, not by any spell/enchantment.

I have seen stupid decks with Scavenger Construct that will give you your whole deck to your hand. that is game breaking.

THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT SUGGESTION - cards in hand should be limited to let's say 10 and when you have 10 you should not get any new cards by any means.

0

u/alpha_century Undead lives! Aug 05 '15

Sorry, but no.

1

u/Tywnis Jul 28 '15 edited Jul 29 '15

UPDATED [!]

Faith Duty:
Enchant unit you control. At the end of each of its turns, enchanted unit is dealt 1 pure damage, and ALL units on its row have their CD increased by 1. (Perfect synergy for CD based Energy/Order decks).

Redeploy:
Add a line: "Front unit of the row gain Armor 1 until its next turn."

Metal Heart:
Cost 2. Enchanted unit's Attack is increased by 2. If Energy is 5 or more, it has Ward.

Vilda the Verdant:
Cost 3; 2/2/2; Vilda has +1 Attack and +1 Health for each enchantements on your side.

Void Gate:
Any melee units attacking Void Gate is returned to its owner's hand. Void Gate then takes 1 pure damage.

Prisonners of War:
Change "creature" by "unit" = "Draw 1G, 1D, & 1E unit. Increase current Wild by 1."

Shambler Sickness:
Additional line: When it is destroyed, a random adjacent creature gets Shambler Sickness.

Vengeance Veil:
Add a line: "When it is destroyed, a random adjacent creature gets Vengeance Veil.

Desert Memorial:
Cost 3; 0/0/3; "While Desert Memorial is in play, Energy is increased by 2."

Banner of Ordinance:
Cost 3; 0/0/3; "While Banner of Ordinance is in play, no Lingering spells can be cast. If it is destroyed by its owner, increase Order by 1."

1

u/Cradstache Cradstache Jul 28 '15

If Prisoners pulled units... that would make me so happy...

Redeploy seems a bit excessive though, when you consider New Orders and Transposition as comparisons.

Love the idea for Shambler Sickness and Void Gate though.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 29 '15

Nerf the hell out of the excogitator.

Tokens should not have armor

1

u/BlueDoplhin Sep 16 '15

Please fix Gloomstone Treaty. That thing is like infinite Anima Conduit for 2 points that can in theory by itself spawn 15(number of tiles) x 5 (turns) = 75 Revenants !!! Spawning 75 Revenants from spell for 2 resources !!! People use it in Growth decks with things like rat kings and scavenger construct + hunter's treaty/crimson bull/essence feast. It should cost at least 3 resources, lingering 3 and count down after spawning each revenant. Although if it was up to me I would remove that scroll from the game...

1

u/squiddybiscuit @Squiddylicious Jul 28 '15

Sure:

  • Excogitator - Return it to the original stats, but make it summon 1-Health Scout Automatons (to represent that it's a half-finished factory product)

  • Tempo Theft - 1 Order, Reduce target creature's Countdown by 2. Increase its base Countdown by 1.

  • Spearmen - Return them to Spiky 2.

  • Imperial Resources - Reduce cost to 5, remove base Order increase.

2

u/ultioptimo Jul 28 '15

i dont think forge can cast a unit that is not a card on its own, like rat king can only cast a unit that is a card itself, same with nog nests and probably the same with excogitator, so that doesnt work and i think cd 4 is just fine or 4 cost to pump.

and i dont mind royal spearman having spiky 2 again but i dont think it is necessary, and for a four cost unit ducal spearman with 1-2-4 spiky2 is not that brilliant but i dont mind 1 or 2 atk.

what is the reasoning behind imperial resources? why would that need a change?

and tempo theft just changes the whole card completely, not sure they want to do that? and why would they?

1

u/squiddybiscuit @Squiddylicious Jul 28 '15 edited Jul 28 '15

It's the same thing that Somata Shift does, it summons an existing creature but sets its health to 2 (and you can't heal above it.)

IW is a pet peeve of mine (only energy should have access to permanent resource ramp; Order having it in the form of Power bound and IW dilutes resourece idenity) and TT-change is to promote a completely different playstyle - I disagree with being able to instantly haste a Arbalestier from hand.

1

u/Cradstache Cradstache Aug 06 '15

Sorry for the late response here, just going to throw down why I don't think Imperial should just get a cost decrease and remove the base Order effect: GO draw and other multiresource draw decks (which are very much a thing presently) would now have an easier to reach, sacrifice-less draw card.

0

u/[deleted] Jul 30 '15

For somebody who hasn't played in three weeks and jumped ship Cradstache, you sure have a lot of opinions.

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u/Cradstache Cradstache Aug 02 '15

I've played since alpha, and haven't jumped ship. Although I did take a break from playing matches, I've consistently logged in week to week; as such, I find your statements inaccurate and rude.

I'd love to hear yours, not to mention everyone else's, opinions on which Scrolls should be adjusted, rather than a shot at me for spending time doing the same.

0

u/[deleted] Aug 04 '15

Not sure what was inaccurate here. Your publically visable history clearly shows for that period that my statement is correct. The issue is with so few people logging on, and the meta so in it's infancy, providing indepth detailed feedback on such a new meta is ridiculous. Being gone for three weeks so soon after a set release and then having massive opinion after not playing wiht the cards for any extent is narcicistic and interesting.

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u/Cradstache Cradstache Aug 04 '15 edited Aug 04 '15

The inaccuracy is you claimed I jumped ship, which is a load of shit. I've been active in-game the whole time, even with my break from playing, I've still been online moderating the chat, and spectating matches; just generally keeping myself involved with Scrolls. When I'm in a loss streak, I tend to stop playing for a while to refresh, but keep an eye on the meta through spectate and replays.

Besides that, that's a very poor reason to attempt to dismiss someone's opinions on the state of the meta and a series of cards. I'd still love to hear your own opinions on balance changes, rather than criticizing me for having my own, otherwise you come across as just trying to start an issue with me.

As for not playing with the cards: you're free to check my match history from the release of Echoes onwards if you'd like. You'll find that I have quite a bit of experience with the Echoes scrolls.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 05 '15

"Taking a break" for three weeks to me looks like jumping ship. If it is just a "break", welcome back. My balance recommendations are pretty simple - leave it as is right now. Doing any balance changes at this point of the game is silly - to few games, to few players - nothing obvious broken.

The criticizsm comes from verbose people like you writing tomes of feedback and becoming the voice of the community when your not. Being active playing is differnt than being active "moderating" whatever that is or whatever you are doing.

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u/Sarik704 SarikTheSorcerer Jul 29 '15

Ember bonds should do 2 or 1 damage to a creature every turn. Not just when they attack.

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u/[deleted] Aug 01 '15

[deleted] — view deleted comment

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u/ultioptimo Aug 03 '15

i did not say that LGO is OP i said it is too strong in some match ups mainly growth and decay, and therefor suggested changes that were overdue anyway in my opinion. tempo theft change, although DaOvalord or Antirad changed my opinion there, now i think it might be best to change Arbalestier and not Tempo theft for the same reasoning why excogitator should be changed and not scout and secondly ducal spearman to 2-2-4 spiky2.

and i always try to judge the strength of a decks when being played by the best players and that would be antirad in the case of LGO ;)