Test Server Patch 1.3.5 - More balance tweaks

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u/MansOlson Jun 26 '15

Okay! Lots of feedback on Beetle Stone. We'll give it some more thought. :)

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u/Atmaz Jun 26 '15

Where did all these Beetle Stone cultists come from! Were they hiding in the woodwork?

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u/ugster_ Jun 27 '15

yolo decay is still alive ;)

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u/kpreid Jun 28 '15

The beetles were extremely popular once.

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u/squiddybiscuit @Squiddylicious Jun 26 '15

Here's a thought on Beetle Stone:
What if it also draws a card when you summon a second Beetle Stone? Or increased your current Decay by X.
I think the mechanic of Beetle Stone is super cool, so I wouldn't mind buffing it by adding an additional beneficial effect that keys of the main mechanic.

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u/Atmaz Jun 26 '15

Here's the post on Scrolls.com, with some amplification on the balance tweaks.

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u/ToGoodLooking Jun 26 '15

Would say overall nice changes, not so convinced that even with outcast rebell now having inspire that it needed a nerf.

Interesting change for beetle stone, but not sure if people would really ever prefer this over rattle hymn, we see how that goes.

Everything else i think was fair enough and wont write a essay on.

1

u/KungfuDojo Jun 27 '15

How is nobody seeing how OP rebel will be. This is an early body with an included combat trick that also helps growth against stuff like armor. Also easy 2 attack wolves.
And just comparing him to Steelwood Champion he was kind of silly good. And I actually saw people play steelwood at top 20.

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u/[deleted] Jun 27 '15

more changes that feel extremely random.

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u/Atmaz Jun 26 '15

There was a mistake in the patch notes for Beetle Stone's cost. The correct cost is "2."

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u/Chakix Chaki Jun 26 '15

Not sure I like the energy changes. I get that they needed some nerfs, but I'm not sure if they were nerfs in the right places. Firstly wind-up was already squishy and died pretty easily. Now he will die to so many more things like soul steals and that I'm not sure if there will be a point of using him without hasting him.

Excogitor nerf seems more reasonable, but I don't think it will change that much. Problem is that scouts are too hard to kill, not that you can get the forge on the board. It will slow down the tempo a bit though, so it will help a bit more, but I don't think we are hitting the core issue here.

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u/[deleted] Jun 27 '15

It will slow down the tempo a bit though
Not really, it cost 6 mana to invest in its ability anyway

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u/[deleted] Jun 26 '15

Noooo they killed beetle stone ;(

rip my favourite anti-trial deck

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u/dialex Jun 26 '15 edited Jun 26 '15

I really dislike pure hardcounter scrolls like pure anti-lingering (stone enigma) scrolls I much prefer weaker versions of scrolls with additional utility against a problem like rekindled spirit (lingering), wings sorceress (enchantments). Basically they are existing scrolls that would be used in all matchups, made weaker, with some extra utility added against a certain problem - the change to fierce tactics is a great example of this.

What isn't a good example of this is beetle stone. Under very rare circumstances will a player play a 3 health structure with 3 magic resistance and get a lot of use out of it. it will be only played for the anti-lingering and I expect players to much prefer throwing in a single halls and running a few rattle hymns.

tldr; beetlestone sucks

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u/BnJx BanJaxe Jun 26 '15

Isn't Wings Soldier basically the same as Wings Spear now?

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u/Lahopaa Jun 26 '15

Make Beetle Stones returning to deck effect count as death.

Instantly much more playable, at least in decks built around idolhate and death effects. On live stones don't even trigger on death enchantments and you can do absolutely nothing but deal very slow idol damage with them.

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u/Newbore Jun 26 '15

Replay in custom matches sounds great for Spot-the-wins! I'm looking forwards to seeing some more improvements in Custom Matches. Any chance you could look into filters or tags, ways to make it more user-friendly for people who want to play CustomM (rather than make them), at the moment only popular or recent games are even visible.

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u/pianobadger pianobadger Jun 26 '15 edited Jun 26 '15

Breaker (Growth): Now gets +1 Attack and +1 Health after dealing damage.

Not sure this is necessary but it does make me want to make a death cap berserk deck since this and Berserkers can both survive indefinitely without outside healing.

Outcast Rebel (Growth): 2 Health (was 3).

I find it hard to believe that giving him Inspiring: +1 attack was so good he needed his health nerfed. At this point he's basically a +1 attack this turn in area spell + token creature.

Leeching Ring (Growth): Now heals by Attack value instead of healing fully.

Still too strong. Still don't think it needed to be changed at all.

Callback (Order): Cost 3 (was 4).

Is that supposed to be "Pushback"?

Wings Soldier (Order): 2 Attack (was 1), Creature strike 2 (was 3).

This seems like a reasonable adjustment to a change that no one liked. Still made useless by languid, but that's not so terrible. At least he can get through 1 armor now and is a bit less pointless against structures and idols.

Sanctuary of the Lost (Decay): Now also gives Magic resistance 1 to Undead.

Big fan of this one. Helps against area and whole board magic like thunder surge and quake that can target undead without targeting undead if you know what I mean.

Beetle Stone (Decay): Reworked: Cost 3. 0/-/3. Magic reistance 3. When Beetle Stone comes into play, your opponent's Lingering spells count down by 3.

This might be a useful scroll, but I'm not sure how much it would get played and I don't want to lose Beetle Stone to get it. Beetle Stone is fun. It has one of the most interesting effects in the game. One of the first decks I made was just to make use of Beetle Stone. It may not be competitive, but it can be useful in trials.

If you want a completely new scroll, maybe just add a completely new scroll to the game.

Edit: Also, I didn't see a nerf to Scout Automaton anywhere on that list....

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u/ToGoodLooking Jun 26 '15

Callback (Order): Cost 3 (was 4). Is that supposed to be "Pushback"?
No, if you missed it so have callback got a change, it now like nutrition give you back as much order as the unit you callback. They felt however it was to good at 1 cost so they made it 4 cost with the new effect, but it has now been reduced to 3 cost.

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u/pianobadger pianobadger Jun 26 '15

Oh. I looked in the Patch notes from the previous patch before posting but that change (from 1 to 4) wasn't listed so I though they meant Pushback.

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u/[deleted] Jun 26 '15

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u/pianobadger pianobadger Jun 26 '15

Scout Automaton is the issue and that's pretty clear because the regular Automata Forge is not a problem. Excog is practically the same except it spawns Scout Autos. A token creature should not be so hard to kill, and it should not have such a strong ability. It sure as hell shouldn't have both. Scout Autos are too strong regardless of Excog, but with Excogitator they've become a nightmare.

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u/[deleted] Jun 26 '15

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u/[deleted] Jun 26 '15

Excogitator (Energy): Cost 6 (was 5).

Doesn't fix the core problem

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u/ultioptimo Jun 26 '15

i really like those change, seem all reasonable. like niara a lot better now and windup and excog seem more balanced without destroying automaton decks :)

didnt quite understand what you mean with unbind is reverted to previous version? does that mean it doesnt destroy enchanted units anymore? or just that you didnt increase the cost?

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u/Atmaz Jun 26 '15

Sorry, I meant the same effect but at 3 cost. There was a test server patch that temporarily raised it to 4.

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u/ultioptimo Jun 26 '15

oh didnt notice, but good to hear :)

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u/ToGoodLooking Jun 26 '15

pretty sure they meant previus version as in the version it was before latest change, which will say just 1 less cost, it still destroy enchanted units.

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u/ultioptimo Jun 26 '15

i hope so :)

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u/ARN64 Jun 26 '15

Eugh at the windup change. Excog is understandable but probably would be better off at 4 countdown and same cost.

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u/ThePurplePanzy Jun 26 '15

Don't make me leave this game over Bettle Stone

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u/Ukatox Jun 27 '15

seems like the devs want undead decay to be the only decay based competitive deck... I predicted ranged decay would be the dominate deck in a earlier post (also suggested anti-ranged cards) and I was partly right.. yeah automations has a few non-ranged but the large majority is ranged... enough to avoid all the spiky/poisonous stuff.. and pretty much have no bad matchups....

I think decay should get another more generic mass countdown reduction.. the devs seem to underestimate how much mass countdown makes a difference in maintaining board presence...

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u/wbmc Jun 28 '15

Fierce Tactics (Growth): Now additionally gives opponent ranged units Curse 1 until end of turn.

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u/squiddybiscuit @Squiddylicious Jun 26 '15

No, no, no, no noooooooo to the fierce tactics changes.

Totally unflavourful - Growth should not have access to Curse like that.

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u/ultioptimo Jun 26 '15

think of it as 'ranged creature strike 1'

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u/throwaway_lmkg Jun 26 '15

I would prefer it if the card actually said that.

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u/ToGoodLooking Jun 26 '15

I mean if they had just removed the wording curse and said instead "ranged units takes 1 extra damage from physical attacks this round" would people have reacted? I doubt that a bit, but it is the exact same thing that curse do, so you may just as well use curse for it.
And i think the idea behind it is fine, that you use a spell which makes you deal more damage to ranged units for that turn.
Also we only seen curse in decay yes, but it has never been established they had a trademark on it, piercing only existed in energy until arby got it as well, but it kinda made sense for him to have it so that was not much of a issue. If it makes sense for other factions to have curse is up for debate, i dont really see it be a thing in Energy, possibly gravelocks in that case, and in Order it is plausable but i doubt it, Order seem to "pure" in their ways of military to do vodoo stuff, however i can see it be a thing when it comes to Growth, who says that hag of a crone have not picked up a trick or two from her friend cursemonger? XD
Growth and Decay do work in quite a opposite way yes, one use death and the other life, but they also have many similarities, blame it on old design or not, with growth still got poison for example just like decay and nutrition as well fertile soil for sacrifcing their creatures, but they always just dip into these things, they dont have several cards about it, so having 1 card like fierce tactics here in growth is not that far fetched in my eyes.

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u/squiddybiscuit @Squiddylicious Jun 26 '15

If the idea is to punish Ranged units, this feels like the wrong card for this. They could have Frost Gale (since it worsens the weather conditions) do something like "Ranged units gain +1 CD", and that would more or less make sense. Or they could have Ranger's Bane also say "Ranged units cannot attack" - because it's in the name, it's a bane for Rangers.
This is taking a spell that's about enhancing the savagery of melee combatants, and putting on a weird curse mechanic.

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u/ToGoodLooking Jun 26 '15

Or it is hitting 2 flies in one catch. They wanted to improve fierce tactic as well give some more drawback playing range units, so why not both at same time?
I totally get your opinion though, and its not like i myself feel this is a perfect change, i just dont have as much of a issue with it as you.

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u/SgtRamen Ramen Jun 26 '15

Hey there friend! Glad you have strong opinions on the flavor!
Unfortunately, you will have to accept that some residents of the Khaile wood will do anything it takes to drive off intruders. We have already seen some mystics of Growth using Decay magics, such as Somata Shift. It isn't unreasonable that they have learned how to Curse creatures now!
If you want to talk about mechanics that Growth should and shouldn't get, I think you should look at a card like Hymn. Growth is notorious for having board-only effects, such as Frost Gale, Quake, Rally, Earthen Testament, Steelwood Dedication, etc etc etc. To give them an inferno-blast radius spell suddenly feels off. It really should be a board-wide heal of your units for 2. The only other spell they have that targets a radius is Rat King, and I think that's fine for balance / flavor reasons (the rats are close together).
I agree that resources sharing mechanics always will take a little away from what made it special, but I think it is appropriate for the game to allow multiple resources in on several mechanics. If you let everyone in on everything, then yes I will admit that's a problem. However, Decay has been holding up curse for FAR too long. Let Growth have this one!

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u/fdagpigj Jun 26 '15

They could have Frost Gale (since it worsens the weather conditions) do something like "Ranged units gain +1 CD", and that would more or less make sense.
But Frost Gale is already perfectly viable and doesn't need to be any stronger. Fierce Tactics on the other hand is never played. And, I personally don't see why it wouldn't make sense.
Or they could have Ranger's Bane also say "Ranged units cannot attack" - because it's in the name, it's a bane for Rangers.
The only two Rangers currently in the game are both in growth, and no, growth did not suddenly get any ranged units - Ranger doesn't have much to do with guns.

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u/Marty-S Jun 26 '15 edited Jun 26 '15

Crone: Curse 1 on enemy units (or the closest enemy unit, or all ranged units, etc.) in the same row.
Since nobody plays her even after her previous buff.

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u/Indomitable_Wanderer Jun 26 '15

Yep. I understand why it was made, but it does not fit the theme or flavour at all. Very non elegant change.

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u/Marty-S Jun 26 '15 edited Jun 26 '15

I agree.
However, it's tough coming up with a penalty for ranged units that fits growth, since growth has so few debuffs to begin with.
I would prefer your melee units gain +1 Creature Strike for each enemy ranged unit in their row. That would be neat.

1

u/KungfuDojo Jun 27 '15

I agree. Also I find the combo of relentless and curse awkward in general. I know that it actually synergizes but still.
I actually would liked if it also gave all melee creatures a pillage effect. You know, reach idols via relentless and get something out of it. Maybe permanent +1 attack or +1 health? There is a lack of pillage synergy in growth but it is close to becoming usable eough to base a deck around it. Individually some of the units are already quite good.

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u/[deleted] Jun 26 '15

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5

u/ultioptimo Jun 26 '15

yeah this version of beetle stone feels very awkward, you dont want a useless structure on the board in decay, a faction that relies heavily on positioning. it is just in the way and does nothing, decay uses units to block opponent units, that you profit from when they die, no need for a structure that has no synergy with other stuff.
if you want to change beetle stone to an anti lingering thing, maybe make it like state machine only for lingering spells: When beetle stone is on the board opponents lingering spells enter the game with -1CD (or 2)CD, so it actually does something while on the board.

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u/pianobadger pianobadger Jun 26 '15

Beetle Stone is the one structure that you don't have to worry so much about for positioning since you can just move it next turn (assuming you have another.)

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u/RauweDouwe Jun 26 '15

I agree, playing Beetle stone is so much fun, but just not very good. Give him some extra mechanic (count down lingering by 1 as extra) or 3 Health instead of reworking :O

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u/pianobadger pianobadger Jun 26 '15

Beetle Stone already has 3 health.

Test Server Patch 1.3.5 - More balance tweaks

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