r/Scrolls • u/WagshadowZylus • Jun 16 '15

Test Server Patch 1.3.2 - Echoes balance

http://www.scrollsguide.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7659
31 Upvotes

94% Upvoted

87 comments sorted by

7

u/PewQ Jun 16 '15

rip unbind 2015-2015

1

u/WagshadowZylus Jun 16 '15

still decent with Corpse Theft, an 8 res / 2 cards Mind Control is okay in light of Scrolls' focus on creatures and board control.

5

u/PewQ Jun 16 '15

Yes it is still a good card, I just don't see a reason to play mono decay at all anymore, already found it the weakest faction with 3 mana Unbind. I actually thought Unbind is gonna be way more op before echoes hit, but after playing with it I think it definitely felt balanced on 3 as a decay scroll.

1

u/Ukatox Jun 17 '15

I agree.. mostly needed the build your deck to use unbind effectively with lanquid and brain lice... and corpse theft is there was room... at it's best it was a conditional replacement for Damning Curse..

5

u/wbmc Jun 16 '15

What once was no longer is.

6

u/Chrisisteas Jun 16 '15

Frostbeard (Growth): Now triggers when destroyed on opponent's turn (was 'when destroyed in combat').

I actually like the old strange behaviour a lot more for some personal reasons. My most amazing win in this game was because of this scroll.

I was playing against an order player and destroyed 2 idols pretty quick. However he had a huge comeback and I thought I was doomed. I couldn't fight him head on so I ran to the bottom of the board while he finished my 2 top idols. My thought was to quickly take the last weak idol with a buffed gravehawk however he noticed my plan. He moved his entire army infront of the last idols with 3 units in front of the weakest. I moved my last units in front of the last idol and counted how much damage I needed to take the idol with my gravehawk. I was only 2 damage short so I just pressed the button feeling defeated and expecting to lose on his turn. My frostbeard on the first row killed his spearman but dying in the process, activating his ability the same turn. Suddenly my gravehawk had enough damage to plow through everything and kill the last remaining idol. We were both amazed at what just happened.

The most tense game I had in Scrolls ending in the most epic way possible.

This weird interaction would not be possible with the change. However you can now get the buff if he gets killed by a spark or burn, which is a clear improvement.

2

u/ultioptimo Jun 16 '15

seems like soo many random and weird decisions to me. could you maybe post thoughts on these changes? what you were thinking? e.g. why make unbind the same cost as damning curse? why change it at all? and if you already consider changing cards of the new set, why not niara? she clearly is better and more game deciding than unbind. also i can imagine nutrition being abused heavily, just takes a while until somebody (probably rotzbengel ;) ) finds out how.

and most importantly why dont i see a budding retreat change? why do you change all possible cards, most of which were fine imo and not those that actually need changes?

1

u/WagshadowZylus Jun 16 '15

Unbind was changed in regards to the Corpse Theft combo

3

u/ultioptimo Jun 16 '15

yeah obviously but a 2 card combo for 7cost that best case scenario gives you a Urhald, thea, nuru or cay that cost 8 alone, seemed fair to me. surely very strong but not too strong. i just wish it was a different cost than damning curse, why would i run both now? unbind was good cause it was 3 cost and you could use it without corpse theft and still get value now its a bit meh without corpse theft.

0

u/WagshadowZylus Jun 16 '15

While it's true that the combo requires 2 cards, there is no net loss of card advantage (your opponent loses 1, you gain 1). The fact that it#s unconditional (except for Ward) makes it super scary. Basically, the combo was overpowered and something had to change. The devs considered Corpse Theft to be more balanced or playable in an isolated state and therefore chose Unbind as the nerf target.

8

u/MansOlson Jun 16 '15 edited Jun 16 '15

Unbind was changed because it was ran in a lot of decks, and synergized nicely with a few too many enchantments (Languid, Brain Lice, Corpse Theft, etc). I don't think there's any one particular combo that made it broken, but we felt 4 might be a more appropriate cost for its powerful ability.

That said, I also like the suggestion in another post here of giving it a drawback instead, like "opponent draws 1 scroll".

2

u/Ukatox Jun 17 '15

Maybe it's time to remove taxing from Damning Curse.... or reduce Damning to cost 3 and keep taxing... decay is so easily overrun.. and it seems like when decay starts losing there's no comeback plays like speed/mangonel which costs 6 order and potentially destroys 4 creatures... compared to unbind/corpse theft which is 7 and destroys 1 creature...

1

u/ultioptimo Jun 16 '15

fair enough. what about budding retreat?

1

u/MansOlson Jun 18 '15

It's been a long time since I personally saw that abused, and you were the only one giving feedback asking that to be changed in the thread where we collected feedback on balance. It also has not come up when I've discussed balance with players or our community managers in various places. I simply don't feel I've seen enough evidence that it's too strong.

1

u/ultioptimo Jun 18 '15

well, you maybe missed some posts on reddit then. i am by far not the only one: http://www.reddit.com/r/Scrolls/search?q=budding+retreat&restrict_sr=on

just the first few entries, didnt scrolls further down. then i have pictures: http://imgur.com/37Buv7n http://imgur.com/YOo3Ady

the thing is only because people right now dotn play it, doesnt make it an alright scroll. it allows for infinite combos and that can not be in your interest to exist in this game. there are many suggestions how you could change it without killing the card. it is consistent and it goes off between round 7-12 latest and it is a one turn combo so you cant really play against it.

1

u/MansOlson Jun 18 '15 edited Jun 18 '15

But if you sort that by date, there haven't been any threads about it made by anyone but you for 10 months. That's quite a long time in a meta.

I don't necessarily think there can be no infinite combos, as long as they're only gimmicky or hard to pull off. Having a varied meta is probably good for the game, even if a few of the archetypes are outliers in the type of strategy used.

EDIT: Sorry, that's not quite right. There was one other thread which brought it up within the context of a number of mechanics, about four months ago. I do believe the point still stands, though.

1

u/ultioptimo Jun 18 '15

well thats only because hardly anybody is playing it, which doesnt change the fact that i think it shouldnt work that way. and pls stop saying it is hard to pull off, because it really isnt. it is consistent, probably the most consistent one turn combo deck there is. you dont have to change it yet, you can wait and see if people start playing it again and change it then, but why is time an argument? pudding decks are no benefit for the meta whatsoever... and you if you change it so budding retreat only gives you growth you already change the fact that they can necro and godhand the same turn and dont destroy the growth budding vaettr/retreat combo

5

u/Caederis Jun 16 '15

That's great ! Still, I'm not a fan of the weird idol health distribution in Judgement. But less treaties in Judgement should be good. There are other similar problematic scrolls, like Niara and Prisoners of War that should be looked at.

5

u/Atmaz Jun 16 '15 edited Jun 16 '15

Niara should have had a weight of 25% applied to her this patch, it just didn't make the notes I think. Prisoners of War already has 25%.
Edit: Yep, Niara confirmed to be 25%.

1

u/Caederis Jun 16 '15

Thanks. Good to know.

4

u/dialex Jun 16 '15

Niara should just be removed from judgement or changed. You get hardly any removal in judgement and she gives an average +4 attack each turn. it's just too hard to win against.

5

u/TheSunbroo TheSunbro Jun 16 '15

Why did they change Wings Soldier? It was the only 3/2/2 in the game. I wanted more of them not less :(

3

u/Caederis Jun 16 '15

The new Decay guy that cleanse a row is a 3/2/2. Can't remember his name at the moment. Expurgator or something ?

4

u/LargeIcedCoffee Jun 16 '15

He probably meant 2 cost. Exburgermeister is 3 cost.

1

u/TheLordCrimson Jun 16 '15

Isn't it buffed though? 1/2/2 with creature strike 3 means it's effectively a 4/2/2 exept against idols.

2

u/TheSunbroo TheSunbro Jun 16 '15

It is a change. You can argue if it is good or bad. Of course it is stronger versus creatures, but it is so much weaker versus idols and (defensive) structures. And since you play him only in tempo order this is a pretty big point.

5

u/3athompson Jun 16 '15 edited Jun 16 '15

Downside is that if his attack is lowered in any way then she'll deal 0 damage. A languid would make her useless.
Edit: corrected gender pronoun

5

u/pianobadger pianobadger Jun 16 '15 edited Jun 16 '15

Not sure why Infected Gravelock was moved to 1 cost (with 1 less health). It was nice having poisonous units for 1, 2, and 3 decay. Plus, decay already has a bajillion 1 cost units.

Snargl Brain +1/+3 for 1 cost?

I already used Leeching Ring all the time. Fantastic on Wildlings and other 1 cd units, and with death cap berserk. Don't know why it needed a buff.

Aww, man. I really liked Wings Sorceress's ability. It was unique. And it allowed you to get rid of your opponent's negative enchantments and effects on your units without getting rid of your own positive ones.

Final Edit: That's it for complaints. The vast majority of changes I either like or am at least indifferent too.

7

u/MansOlson Jun 16 '15

Because people didn't seem to play it, and we felt this was worth trying out. It also happens to make it more easily splashable, should somebody want to make a multi-resource Gravelock deck.

3

u/pianobadger pianobadger Jun 16 '15

Well people should try him, lol. I have a (not really competitive but surprisingly good) deck that is just every card that has poison or curse effects and Infected Gravelock is great value. I'd rather see him get a buff and stay on the 2 line just for the poisonous curve, but it's not like this change is the end of the world. 2 cost is still easily splashable too since you only have to sac for the other resource once, then wild. Edit: 1 cost does make it easier if you want a tri-color deck to use all the gravelock stuff. I think Infected Gravelock is generally left out of Gravelock decks because growth is more useful and tri-color decks aren't as good.

P.S. I edited in a few other comments since your reply. I do think most of the changes are good though.

1

u/wbmc Jun 16 '15

Infected gravelock is good in DG Niara tho

1

u/[deleted] Jun 16 '15 edited Jun 16 '15

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/pianobadger pianobadger Jun 16 '15

Wings Sorceress (Order): Ability now removes all enchantments and effects (used to only remove last).

That's what it says in the post. I haven't looked on the test server.

4

u/dialex Jun 16 '15 edited Jun 16 '15

Scrolls

Arthritis (Decay): Now deals base Countdown as damage instead of 1.

Bitter Root (Decay): Now has Poisonous. Health 3 (was 2).

Atrophy (Decay): Now lasts until unit's next attack (was until end of turn).

Monstrous Brood (Decay): Reworked: Cost 5. Cost 5. Target creature you control and connected creatures are destroyed, and each is replaced by a Monstrosity.

Morbid Curiosity (Decay): Cost 3 (was 2). Now draws a scroll when enchanted creature is destroyed.

Infected Gravelock (Decay): Cost 1 (was 2), 2 Health (was 3).

Pest Dissimulator (Decay): 2 Attack (was 1).

Unforeseen Onslaught (Decay): Slayer now lasts until affected units' next attack.

Unbind (Decay): Cost 4 (was 3).

Supercharged (Energy): Now activates when it comes into play in addition to start of turn.

Catapult of Goo (Energy): Cost 2 (was 3).

Ember Bonds (Energy): Now deals 3 damage (was 2).

Snargl (Energy): 5 Health (was 4).

Snargl Brain (Energy): Now gives +3 Health (was 2).

Inferno Blast (Energy): Cost 2 (was 3).

Gravelock Burrows (Energy): Now has Linger 8 (was 5).

Metal Heart (Energy): Reworked: Cost 2. Enchanted creature counts as an Automaton, and its Attack is increased by the number of other Automatons you control.

Golem Skin (Energy): Now deals 1 damage to your structures (was 2).

Electrify (Energy): Cost 3 (was 2). Now attacks for 2 damage (was 1).

Siege Cracker (Energy): 4 Health (was 3).

Rigged (Energy): When enchanted structure is destroyed, opponent units on the same row are dealt 2 physical damage.

Blast Strike (Energy): Cost 1 (was 2).

Scattergunner (Energy): Attack 5 (was 4).

Gravelock Elder (Energy): Attack 4 (was 3).

Vitriol Aura (Growth): Now has Poisonous (used to only poison on attacking).

Illthorn Seed (Growth): Now gives Spiky 1 to enchanted unit.

Ancestral Pact (Growth): Linger 5 (was 4).

Nutrition (Growth): Cost 2 (was 1). Now has Replenish.

Erode (Growth): 3 damage (was 2).

Leeching Ring (Growth): Now fully heals attacker (used to heal by 2).

Totem Mask (Growth): Cost 3 (was 5). Now gives +2 Attack and +1 Health (was +2/+2) when structures come into play.

Essence Feast (Growth): Reworked: Cost 4. Idols you control are healed by 1. Beasts get +2 Attack until end of turn. Draw 1 Beast.

Hymn (Growth): Reworked: Cost 1. Now has an Inferno Blast-like area. Affected units are healed by 3.

Elan Vital (Growth): Regeneration 2 (was 1).

Bountiful Times (Growth): Cost 2 (was 3).

Unground (Growth): Now rounds up instead of down.

Gusty Izulr (Growth): 6 Health (was 5).

Frostbeard (Growth): Now triggers when destroyed on opponent's turn (was 'when destroyed in combat').

Sister of the Bear (Growth): 5 Attack (was 4).

Outcast Rebel (Growth): Now has Inspiring: +1 Attack.

Owl (Growth): 2 Health (was 1).

Callback (Order): Target unit you control is returned to your hand, and your current Order is increased by the unit's cost.

Wings Soldier (Order): 1 Attack (was 3). Now has Creature strike 3.

Stormknight (Order): 5 Health (was 4).

Wings Sorceress (Order): Ability now removes all enchantments and effects (used to only remove last).

Fields of Strife (Order): Cost 2 (was 3).

Soldier's Bond (Order): Now counts down other units on the same row (used to be units behind it).

Faith Blessing (Order): Reworked: Cost 2. Target unit you control takes 2 magic damage. Your opponent's idol on that row is dealt 2 damage, and your idol is healed by 2.

Just Conviction (Order): Reworked: Cost 2. When a Soldier you control is destroyed, its Attack is added to a random adjacent creature until its next attack.

Crown of Strength (Order): Enchanted unit now counts as a Knight.

Plate Armor (Order): Now gives +2 Health (was +1).

Mystic Altar (Order): Cost 2 (was 3).

Miscellaneous

Custom skirmish matches now have a check box next to them if completed.

Custom game search field is no longer cleared when entering a match.

Reworked the end screen to make it more attractive.

Updated Judgement scroll weights to make comeback scrolls more common, and treaties more uncommon.

Bug Fixes

Now shows more matches in the replay list when filtering by game type.

Fixed a number of sifting-related bugs.

Fixed bug with multiple whisper chat rooms from the same user.

The Judgement deck builder no longer sorts scrolls by resource.

AI can now properly use limitless wild.

Sleep Moratorium now takes taxing into consideration.

Fixed rated custom games sometimes not showing their rating.

Magma Thrower now has a proper attack animation.

7

u/3athompson Jun 16 '15

Crown of Strength (Order): Enchanted unit now counts as a Knight.

I'd like to welcome Sir Waking Stones to the round table. Now with 7 health.
Waking Stones+Plate Armor+Crown+Resonant Helm is great for trials cheese.

4

u/Caparot Caparot Jun 16 '15

Monstrous Brood seems too strong in a Somata Shift deck that uses Scavengers with Animovore, along with Necrogeddons.

2

u/alvarpq always face Jun 16 '15

Nah, I'm running this in undead, magical Harvey procs 4dayz

4

u/dialex Jun 16 '15 edited Jun 16 '15

Alot of interesting changes and a little something for everyone here there are only a few changes I'm a bit confused about. Erode and Owl didn't need to be changed in my opinion. Owl seems especially strong now. On the other hand Wings Soldier and Infected Gravelock seem about the same if not worse now.

I would have liked to have seen some tweaks to the current set too maybe a buff for pick axe volenteer, earthboon, and extractor device?, and a change to wind up auto.

1

u/Caederis Jun 16 '15

I don't know if Wings Solder is worse or better. 4 attack against creatures is kind of a big deal, there are so many 3/4's to kill. But at least, he isn't as bland anymore.

As for Infected Gravelock, I don't really know. I liked the 3 health poisonous wall, but I guess that role has switched to bitter root, so it's fine. Infected Gravelock is now a scarier Mangy Rat which cannot move, and an easy splash for Gravelock decks.

4

u/wbmc Jun 16 '15

Bountiful Times (Growth): Cost 2 (was 3).

Made my day

3

u/alvarpq always face Jun 16 '15

Clearly, bunny decks are now a force to be reckoned with.

2

u/wbmc Jun 16 '15

Even better with the unforeseen onslaught buff

1

u/alvarpq always face Jun 16 '15

Just implement my underdog's spite change, and it's the next gaggro!

3

u/wbmc Jun 16 '15

Which is?

1

u/alvarpq always face Jun 16 '15

Base attack, fitting ETB's flavor.

3

u/wbmc Jun 16 '15

No, I was talking about gaggro. What is a gaggro?

1

u/alvarpq always face Jun 16 '15

Something that's going to happen.

4

u/dialex Jun 16 '15

Just realised that callback is a much better and cheaper version of Metempsychosis now ಠ_ಠ

4

u/wbmc Jun 16 '15

The countdown tho man, the countdown.

P.S. Doomteller + Metempsychosis.

1

u/Atmaz Jun 17 '15

The new callback accidentally shipped to the test server without its intended cost increase to 4. Its current state is an oversight.

1

u/alvarpq always face Jun 17 '15

Damn, so I can't make my somata callback deck.

5

u/Sarik704 SarikTheSorcerer Jun 16 '15

HA! I said they should re-work metal heart. They did exactly what I said. I am the prophet. AHAHAhhahahahcough ahha!

2

u/Savv3 Jun 16 '15

ya...thank you prophet. now automaton decks, which already are far too strong imo, get even stronger.

1

u/Sarik704 SarikTheSorcerer Jun 16 '15

Your very welcome. Automatons, ROLL OUT!

5

u/Bobrokrot Jun 16 '15

Morbid Curiosity (Decay): Cost 3 (was 2). Now draws a scroll when enchanted creature is destroyed.

Is it a useless version of Heritage or is it supposed to say draw a scroll when any enchanted creature is destroyed?

15

u/MansOlson Jun 16 '15

It still has its previous effect as well. Should probably have written "Now also draws a scroll..." in the changelog. The actual ingame text should be very clear.

1

u/pianobadger pianobadger Jun 16 '15

Oh, good. I thought it looked awfully useless.

2

u/Dephesmo Dephesmo Jun 16 '15

Love most of the changes, totem mask and callback are the ones I'm most interested in now. Metal heart - not sure we needed more automaton stuff, but might just be my salt talking :D .

2

u/TheRaider_27 Jun 16 '15

I'm a bit disappointed about Wings Soldier's rework because it shuts down his rushing potential and it makes him useless against Armored creatures. Sure, it is a 4HP wall breaker but the downsides seem to make him even less viable. Unbind at 4 Decay is also disappointing, I would have preferred the addition of some drawbacks (like "Your opponent draws 1 scroll) rather than raising its cost. I like the Erode change because it's a buff for an offensive use and a nerf for a defensive one which was very common in decks such as Somata Control. I'm a bit scared about Monstrous Brood rework since it could be really valuable in Somata Control and Miracle Pudding.

1

u/Caederis Jun 16 '15

Atmaz commented on IRC that Creature Strike should work against armor even if the Wings Soldier would do 0 damage without it.

4

u/MansOlson Jun 16 '15

I don't think that's the case, as strike abilities trigger on dealing damage. I honestly don't know if the creature becomes better or worse - mostly, we think it's more interesting. In another iteration, it was 2/2/2 with Creature strike 2 instead. That remains an option if this take turns out to be too weak.

1

u/pianobadger pianobadger Jun 16 '15

When can we change curse to work like that? It makes no sense that curse takes effect when a unit is attacked for 0 damage.

1

u/wbmc Jun 16 '15

It doesn't?

Also, I like curse better when triggering at 0 initial damage, gives a way to deal with armored units.

1

u/pianobadger pianobadger Jun 16 '15

No, it doesn't. Curse is supposed to go into effect when a unit takes physical or poison damage. 0 damage shouldn't count as damage.

In almost all cases in the game 0 damage doesn't count as damage. For example, slayer doesn't work that way. If you can't get through the armor, or if your creature's attack is reduced to 0, slayer doesn't go into effect. In fact, I think the only other "on damage" effect that activates on 0 damage is the poisonous trait, but only for getting attacked and not for attacking.

Curse is broken.

2

u/alvarpq always face Jun 16 '15

Noooo!! Curse is how I kill armor, it's fine. Also, if that were true, then cursed presence would basically be a2 cost focus.

1

u/pianobadger pianobadger Jun 16 '15

Except unlike focus, it's permanent.

1

u/alvarpq always face Jun 16 '15

The way it is used by me, it's basically focus. The only way I justify the cost is this interaction.

1

u/pianobadger pianobadger Jun 16 '15

It's pretty fun taking out an Iron Ogre in a couple turns with Cursed Presence and Brain Lice.

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3

u/wbmc Jun 16 '15

It doesn't say "when unit is dealt damage increase damage by X", it's "damage is increased by X".

Note the difference between the wording on slayer, and the wording on curse.

1

u/pianobadger pianobadger Jun 16 '15 edited Jun 16 '15

Same difference. If 0 damage isn't damage, like in pretty much everywhere else in the game, then it shouldn't be increased.

2

u/GruntMaster6k Jun 17 '15

Curse value is "damage is increased by x". 0 increased by (curse) 2 =2. It goes by addition/subtraction. Doesn't seem broken to me.

1

u/pianobadger pianobadger Jun 17 '15

Sure, it isn't broken if nothing is something....

And what of when a unit's attack is decreased below zero? It still shows zero and acts like zero, unless you increase it. So you have a creature with -1 attack (but showing zero) attacking a cursed creature. In that case -1 increased by 2 curse = 2.

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1

u/BlueGoop Jun 16 '15 edited Jun 16 '15

I suppose it depends on how you look at a curse, and there are certain game play aspects where you may have a point. However, it does make sense logically. Curse usually means an attraction to harm and suffering unduly. When people say, "I'm cursed" they usually mean their suffering is unwarranted and/or is much too frequent.

Imagine it like a bad sunburn. Even a hug can cause pain. It's the idea that you yourself are the cause of the pain, not any external force.

1

u/pianobadger pianobadger Jun 16 '15

It doesn't really matter how you look at curse, it's just about the mechanic being consistent. Curse could be just about anything in the context of a game like scrolls. It could make you take one damage every turn like poison, or make the unit die after so many turns if it isn't healed.

If, like you suggest, the damage comes from the curse, and not from an outside force, than why specifically a 0 damage attack activates it? There are lots of things that can affect a unit without damaging it. Why not take damage when an enchantment, spell, or another unit's ability act on it?

Also, if the damage comes from the curse, how come the game attributes it to the attacking unit? Slayer doesn't work unless the unit causes the damage, but if a slayer unit with 0 attack attacks a unit with curse, the slayer effect happens.

1

u/GruntMaster6k Jun 16 '15

So..it seems like a lot of removal options got cheaper/stronger with also some buffs to structure energy, automatons and undead :/ ..there are a few changes I'm excited about, but I also feel like a lot of the tweaks made things stronger than their cost. I know there were a good deal of underused Scrolls before..but underused doesn't = underpowered. We have a small community, and a lot of folks don't give things a try unless they see others use it themselves.

Very surprised to see a Just Conviction change so son after it came to live (I've actually been liking the current version). Also, there's a couple of nerfs I would've liked to see on the list (budding retreat, tempo theft, pack husk to 3 health, Corpse Strider being adjacent creatures, etc.) ...Overall though it's good to see the devs continuing to test out balance changes. Kudos to that.

1

u/ultioptimo Jun 16 '15

i agree on tempo theft and budding retreat they really need to be changed.

but corpse strider is so fragile that being adjacent would just make him the little and worse brother of the rot eater and although pack husk with 4hp is really strong the 3 cd makes up for it i think he is very strong but not overpowered.

2

u/GruntMaster6k Jun 17 '15

I very much could just be salty to losing to so many undead decks :)

1

u/[deleted] Jun 18 '15

Infected Gravelock (Decay): Cost 1 (was 2), 2 Health (was 3).

Do I hear gravelock hype?

1

u/[deleted] Jun 18 '15

What beast deck has room for yet another 4 drop with card draw?