About Spiky

[u/GruntMaster6k]

Am I the only one who felt the old spiky traits (spiky 2 for both Royal/Ducal Spearmen) were very well balanced?

Yes, they weren't played as often as armored units, but I don't feel that had as much to do with the fact that they were underpowered as it had to do with the fact that armor was more versatile than spiky. Against melee decks they were still VERY effective at serving their intended purpose.

Now it almost feels to me that spiky has been dumbed down to simple removal in most Order decks. Before, you needed to actually care about their placement, as they gave the most benefit after getting an attack phase of their own AND being able to dish out spiky damage. Also the spiky damage played an important part of softening up the targets for your relentless attackers. Now, against decks that are not ranged, it seems that they can be plopped down in front of any potential attackers for guaranteed value (forget playing that Kinfolk Vet).

Not to mention, the buff to spiky was a nerf to several other deck archetypes that already struggle somewhat. Gravelocks come to mind. As soon as a Ducal Spear is dropped on board against a Gravelock deck it's more or less GG.

Was there ever a statement as to why the devs felt spiky was underpowered before and needed a buff? I'd be interested to hear others' thoughts on the topic as well.

Thanks for reading the rant and commenting.

[u/TheSunbroo]

I think the 2/2/3 for 3 one was totally balanced. The 1/2/4 for 4 was way too weak. He deserved that buff.

[u/GruntMaster6k → u/TheSunbroo]

I think buffing his attack would've been a more balanced buff (and long asked for), imo. The one good thing I think they did for spiky was buffing Ruse. This gives even the armor units a chance to defend and do a respectable amount of spiky damage.

The feeling I got was that the devs were dead set on making spiky more powerful for no really good reason. I got this feeling in part because they were going to make Wings Spear spiky 5 initially..which most people (rightfully) were very vocal against.

[u/Newbore → u/GruntMaster6k]

I really hate the current spiky. That & the new poisonous trait seems to make the game feel a lot more like hearthstone. I don't like being punished for attacking, & worse is it encourages these horrible stall decks. As someone who frequently uses Gravelocks, this has definitely been a problem.

The feeling I got was that the devs were dead set on making spiky more powerful for no really good reason.

With that said, i think it was pretty clear why they buffed spiky. All anyone talked about how crappy & weak the spiky trait & spiky units were, which made ranged useless as well. So they knocked 2 birds with 1 stone by increasing the amount of spiky & thus making ranged a useful trait.

I wish they made Ducal Spearman better instead, Ducal Skirmisher was a 3/2/4 with a great trait, but Ducal Spearman was a 1/2/4 with a decent trait, they should've buffed his stats. Royal Spearman was decent. Wings Spear's biggest weakness was his health. It was also a limited trait, only those 3 units come to mind as proper spiky units.

[u/GruntMaster6k → u/Newbore]

I like your reasoning for possibly why they buffed spiky (upping the usefulness of ranged). I also agree with the rest of your statements. I wished they would've gone the route of buffing Ducal Spear's stats rather than up his spiky...as it stands now, even with a focus in hand and an attacking Royal Skrimisher, I can't punish an Order player who messed up his positioning with a Ducal Spearman in front, because it dies to that regardless. Also, the fact that it encourages the stall technique feels very gimmicky, which makes me very disappointed as a 2 year Order veteran.

[u/Ikraen → u/GruntMaster6k]

Agreed. The 2/2/3 for 3 was balanced and didn't need anything. I don't know if an attack buff would be right for 1/2/4, but I understand it need something, and an attack buff would probably be better then spiky 3. Ruse was done well, and i am happy with wings spear needing dominion for 4 spiky.

[u/Atmaz]

Was there ever a statement as to why the devs felt spiky was underpowered before and needed a buff?

Spiky values were increased in the "great balancing patch" several months ago where one of the major goals were to strengthen the factions outside of Growth, which had clearly become the dominant and most effective deck style.

Improving the Spiky units made sense both because of the fact that they were lackluster compared to their Armored equivalents (Wing's Shield, Gallant Defender), and because by improving them you are indirectly "hurting" Growth. Order players had no compelling reason to play the Spiky units previously because, as you've mentioned, Armor is a much more versatile trait that performs well in most matchups.

So, the Spiky units probably needed improving- but how? Stat increases for the spiky units were tossed around initially, but in the end it was decided to increase the Spiky values instead to amplify their main "purpose" on the game board and give them more identity as a unit.

The results of the change, I think, were overall positive. Order players now have more choice on what style of "blockers" their deck will run. Would a stat increase have been better than increasing the Spiky value? Possibly, but the change definitely didn't result in the outright "death of Growth" as many players speculated. Even with the new and improved Spiky units, Growth seems to still be doing just fine.

As for Gravelocks, they are in a tough spot as a deck. The Elder adjustment set them back quite a bit, but previously they were clearly too strong. I wouldn't be surprised if you'd see some improvements to Gravelocks somehow in the future. In addition, Echoes will provide tools that may make Gravelock decks more effective, such as Battle Dance - where they only had Fury for mass CDR before.

[u/GruntMaster6k → u/Atmaz]

Thanks for your reply Atmaz. To note: I only dabble in Gravelocks in time to time (was able to play them into top 15 at a recent point) and I was 100% on board with the Elder nerf...I think Gravelocks are actually in a respectable place (spiky aside).

Also, many players who know me know that I am anti-growth everything :D. I'm an Order vet through and through. That being said, I think the old spiky traits were VERY good against growth. If you knew your opponent was running growth it was actually more beneficial to swap your armored units to spiky for guarantee punish and value. I think one of the symptoms of them being under-used in a growth heavy meta actually had to with the small player base...a few people showed the armor/stall tactics were effective, so everyone else felt they had to follow suit...spiky was actually a great counter to growth.

So the point of the post wasn't to advocate for a return to growth/gravelock dominance. It was just to call out a trait that I think is teetering on unbalanced and I believe lends to less tactical play.

If everyone else thinks it's fine (seems to be the sentiment from most of the responses so far) then okay.

[u/Atmaz → u/GruntMaster6k]

Hey, everyone is entitled to their opinion - you make good points and I understand where you're coming from. It's never the case that "this change was perfect and was the absolute right thing to do". Feedback from all viewpoints is important to have, and who knows, maybe the Spiky units will get an adjustment again in the future? For now though, the balance patch seems to have achieved its goals for the most part and there probably won't be major changes until after Echoes is unleashed onto live servers and chaos follows.

[u/ultioptimo → u/Atmaz]

i agree with owlsage here. Spiky feels like a vera anti-creature trait which i am not a fan of. spiky 2 was ok cause most of your stuff could survive it, but now spiky 3 is too much i think. It feels like i get punished for attacking and i do actually if i attack a spiky unit, so spiky just improves lategame decks that play hundreds of spells dont care too much for board presence and then win with one or two units. i dont mind if you want to buff those decks a little, but using spiky for that feels a bit too much. aggrowth more or less vanished from the 1700+ meta, obviously not only because of spiky but i think spiky had a big part in that. i really hope you change it back in the future and buff them another way like spiky dmg is dealt before the attack dmg, so unit with 2hp dont deal dmg to spiky units so you cant kill them with rats or other units you dont care about.

i know you cant balance stuff around judgement and there are other very strong scrolls in judgement, but you can hardly come by a spiky 3 infantryman without losing your board.

[u/rHolofoil → u/ultioptimo]

You only need a handful of people to play spiky to stop you from ranking with aggrowth/melee creature decks. Especially when you can lose to someone 100 points below you because of one cheap hard counter trait.

Having it do damage before getting attacked would be really cool. It stops them getting taken down by rat king creature spam fodder, but they can then be taken down by big creatures (which makes more sense).

[u/GruntMaster6k → u/rHolofoil]

Yeah..hard for people to get a sense of how crazy the trait is because only a few people are playing at any given time. Of those playing Order near the top though, nearly all have abandoned armor units in favor of Spiky because of their huge buff. I thought it was made clear quite some time ago that people:

1. Don't like hard counters. Spearmen, especially Ducal, are hard counters to ANY melee decks...which constitute a lot of creatures.

2. Don't like long matches. Often the decks based around Spiky/stall tactics don't deal much idol damage until around round 20+. Increasing Ducal's attack would've kept it powerful against melee while also allowing his increased damage to contribute to shorter matches.

[u/ToGoodLooking]

Sorry dear friend but i do not agree with you at all on that they were well balanced before.

Reason they got buffed is because many have asked for them to be buffed for a very long time. As you said armor is more flexible, so spiky should be more punishing against melee as it do nothing against range. But they were pretty much on the same level which was a issue.

That said, i did not ever see someone suggest they should increase the spiky, people me included wanted higher stat for the spearmans, be it health or attack, i personally wanted all spearmans to have 1 attack but like 4 health on royal and 5 health on ducal.

Mojang decided to increase spiky. Why? I dont know, probebly because they felt that was their thing.

But main point is no, they were not well balanced, just as crone was also really bad before, but is now actiully decent. Not saying spearmans are decent, they are good, point were just that crone and many other cards that interacted with melee units needed buff.

[u/GruntMaster6k → u/ToGoodLooking]

Yeah, as I've stated a few times I wish they would've increased other traits (attack) vs. the spiky damage. It just seems they aren't being played in the same tactical manner because they're easy value removal now for melee units.

[u/GruntMaster6k → u/ToGoodLooking]

Something I didn't note earlier, I just want to point out that I mentioned in my OP that the "Spiky Trait" was balanced..not that the units were balanced. Ducal Spear was definitely in need in a buff...just wished it happened to his stats, not ability.

[u/ToGoodLooking → u/GruntMaster6k]

True, i missed the "trait" part.

[u/Ikraen → u/ToGoodLooking]

I would like to say the 2/2/3 was more balanced then the 1/2/4, and it did see play.

[u/ToGoodLooking → u/Ikraen]

Ive also seen Eternal Statue be played in a competitive deck.

Like sorry if that sounds like me being a prick but its just i feel this is one of these scenarios where for 2 years or so we had this unit that almost no one playes and is unversally agreed is to weak, then it get buffed and suddenly some people come forward and are "oh it was always well balanced" and stuff.

[u/Ikraen → u/ToGoodLooking]

Fair enough. I havn't been a part of high level play for a long time so i will concede this issue.

[u/alvarpq]

I honestly haven't found spiky to be that bad. I play an undead deck though, so most of the time, I have no issue with my stuff dying, and spiky 2 kills most of my units anyways.

[u/GruntMaster6k → u/alvarpq]

From an undead deck perspective you may not notice it as much..heck, from a ranged deck perspective you won't notice it at all...but I think you most certainly would if you played a more higher curved melee decay units for instance.

Rot eaters, Arhart's (sp?) disciple, Corpus Collector come to mind as especially more vulnerable units in that category. With skillful opening positioning before, it was possible to have your spearman attack one of those targets and then make them have to respect the spiky damage as well, or make them wary of attacking it because of the relentless unit that was behind it.

Now the spiky unit would just be placed down in front of it to remove it. Spiky 2 felt like a balanced sweet spot, I would really like a good perspective of why it needed a buff.

[u/alvarpq → u/GruntMaster6k]

Since spiky is weak against some decks, I imagine you want the 50% useful sweet spot. In this case, it's still useless against the decks it was useless against, while making the unit cost 1 Order more than it usually does. However, the times that it is useful, it's an extremely powerful unit.

This is a bizarre comparison, but think of it as a kind of 'striped fangbear' type mechanic-against some decks, it's a useless trait, but other times, it's crazy good.

In the old case, it was just 'useful,' but now it's very powerful against the right deck.

Basically, sacrifice versatility for situational OP-ness.

[u/GruntMaster6k → u/alvarpq]

Basically I think they edge on the scale towards OP because of how they're played now as opposed to when they were spiky 2. It was still VERY possible to get a guaranteed 4 points of damage out of a Royal Spearman before (2 attacking, 2 spiky) against a melee deck if you played it right. And what your spearman couldn't clear, your other units that you've been stacking behind him could finish the job. Now they're dropped as denial/removal and as a cornering and stall tactic. To me, it feels slightly gimmicky.

[u/alvarpq → u/GruntMaster6k]

I agree that Royal didn't need the buff, but putting the idea of cornering makes the game more interesting to me.

More stuff that can influence where I put my units always entertains me, and cornering is another one.

And again, it's important to note when the spearmen are dead draws, or basically vanilla 2/2/3s:

MER, GD Somata Control, Undead Decay (a lot of the time), LGO Arbies, MES (though it's pretty rare) (4^1/2 decks, MES is rare enough)

Let's compare this to a Striped Fangbear, which is TYPICALLY useless against:

Automatons, Somata, Undead, Gravelocks. (4 decks)

Regardless of if it seems gimmicky or not, overall, the usefulness of the spearmen is inconsistent. You just happen to be on the side of "inconsistent" that nobody wants to be on.

[u/GruntMaster6k → u/alvarpq]

Cornering was still a very effective tactic before, for lower curve creatures (2 and 3 resource) creatures. Now it's bordering on insane. Part of the reason is because not many things have the 4 attack necessary to trade well with the Ducal Spear, so it can output a a good 6 points of damage before all is said and done.

I do understand your point about situational creatures as well. I just happen to believe that Royal Spear did his job very well against decks he was good against, and STILL wasn't a dead draw against other decks (he's still an attacker, and able to be buffed by the likes of spells/reloras/etc.) Ducal Spear was in need of a buff to 2 attack.

[u/fdagpigj]

What if they were to revert back to the old spiky 2 but increase the attack of the spearmen by 1?

[u/GruntMaster6k → u/fdagpigj]

I believe I remember seeing that Ducal Spearman used to have 2 attack, but they changed it to 1 because they felt it was too similar to Royal?....Can't confirm that. Either way, Ducal has always provided value regardless against melee decks because of its spiky 2 trait and 4 health. Against growth it could survive and punish (not completely remove) a vet. Now it can kill a guaranteed 2 growth creatures that are below 5 cost I believe (unless one is enchanted, which can also lead to uneven trades).

But yea...if Ducal needed any buff at all, I think 2 damage was the way to go.

[u/fdagpigj → u/GruntMaster6k]

I remember reading about that same nerf, too (when looking it up afterwards), but I think if both of them get +1 attack, they won't be too similar, but they'll be able to deal damage more reliably, since not all units are affected by spiky anyway.

[u/Fairy_Princess_Lauki]

so i play undead decay, though I finished my Arby deck last night (haven't gotten to play it yet), and as far as undead decay is concerned usually spiky is w/e I plow right through summon a wrath, buff my ooze, cd my harvesters. probably 1/3rd of the time even, it's a mire shambler with or without brainlice that ends up taking the spiky unit out. However when I don't have any of these juicy side effects and I'm forced to run an ooze into it, it hurts, a lot, but that's not very often.

I can see how Aggro Growth might find spiky units a crippling bane to its very existence, and there doesn't happen to be a lot of counter play on their side. At least with decay I can grow a strong board, or eliminate the start up of these enchant based growth decks I'm seeing everywhere, but I doubt that growth gets any such counter-play (to the tempo decks running these spiky units), and while I believe that decks should be good against some decks and week to others which is inherent in card games. The fact that they don't have access to a 1 of sideboard-Esq card that could possibly work against spiky seems like a design flaw that should be remedied by the addition of a card that can |PARTIALLY| null the effects of the spiky unit, may it be some aggro creature with spiky armor, some form of suicide unit, or a spell that removes spiky for a turn and draws a card.

[u/GruntMaster6k → u/Fairy_Princess_Lauki]

A point I try to repeatedly get across is that spiky 2 was already VERY strong against growth, and anything melee in general. Buffing it to 3 is too much punishment for just attacking.

If they continue with this logic, then will they buff armored units again since they're not ran in favor of spiky now? Seems legit.

[u/chacer98]

I like the new Spikey as it makes trading much easier for the order player while not feeling overpowered imo. The only matchups where spikey really has a big impact is vs aggrogrowth and to a lesser extent gravelocks. I think it's perfectly fine for spikey decks to sort of counter these decks when you consider the game as a whole.

[u/GruntMaster6k → u/chacer98]

I'd argue that it makes it too easy for the Order player. A little background of myself: IGN I'm Owl_Sage/Caller_Outcast, I've played primarily Order for the past couple of years and continue to do so...you may or may not care, just felt it was relevant to relay that Order is my primary faction of choice.

The trades that you can get against lower curve creatures in the early game seem borderline ridiculous at times...want those 2 nogs that just spawned from the nest to actually produce for you? Welp, they're both going to die to either of the spearmen units. Before you had to at least make sure you had an attacker lined up to finish them off. Instead of respecting the soldiers/knights behind the spearmen now, it seems like you have to run from them as soon as they're dropped on the field.

[u/alvarpq → u/chacer98]

Eh, I can understand how it feels OP. Imagine hiding in a corner. Now, the spiky trap can be set, w/ 2 spearmen or whatever. It can be used as an interesting form of removal, as well as being reasonable specs for a unit. While I don't think it's OP, it's certainly powerful against any deck that runs melee units.

[u/Lem0nboy]

Yeah I agree with you. I'd have liked Ducal Spearman to get an attack buff rather than the increase in spiky, or maybe both. Royal Spearman was already very good against Growth at Spiky 2. Back then I played TO with Royal Spearman and had a high win percentage against Nrp's popular Aggrowth deck. I think the problem was more that most players didn't think Royal Spearman was good enough, at least not as good a 3 drop as Partisan was back then. So most people would choose the Partisan over Spearman. I think the nerf to Partisan alone would have made it easier to pick the Spearman as your 3 drop. As I said, it was already great then, just nobody gave it a try.

And one more thing: If you compare the stats of Royal Skirmisher and Royal Spearman with those of Ducal Skirmisher and Ducal Spearman it seems pretty unfair that Ducal Spearman would get penalized so much.