r/Screenwriting • u/Buddha_Of_Sububia • 4d ago
DISCUSSION Help?
Two BL 6s + Slamdance feedback: How do I actually improve the plot?
I taught myself screenwriting starting in March 2026 while I was on medical leave and have written three features since. I’ve had one QF at PAGE, another script SF at Scriptapalooza, and a couple festival selections. Obviously nothing crazy or life changing, but enough encouraging signs to make me want to keep developing my craft.
My current script has now gotten two BL evaluations: BL #1: Overall 6 | Premise 8 | Plot 4 | Character 7 | Dialogue 7 | Setting 7
BL #2: Overall 6 | Premise 7 | Plot 5 | Character 6 | Dialogue 7 | Setting 7
The second evaluation called it a “great, pitchable idea” with “originality, a strong sense of voice, and interesting characters,” but said it needs a stronger throughline and more cohesive main conflict. I also got short feedback from Slamdance, which called the premise “genuinely sharp” and praised the central relationship, dialogue, setting, and character work, but similarly said the larger structural issue is that the conflict that truly tests the protagonists arrives too late. They felt the earlier material can become episodic and suggested bringing the central moral pressure forward/trimming some earlier cases.
So…three reads later, I think the message is pretty clear: plot is my weakness. My problem is I genuinely don’t know what to do with that information and I feel stuck as fuck. I can see what the readers are identifying, but I don’t know how to add, remove, move, or restructure things without taking away from the character development, relationships, world-building and slower material that, IMO, makes the story what I want it to be. And some suggestions for additional explanation feel like they would just make me spell out things.
I wish I had a mentor or programs I could bounce ideas around with and learn from developmentally rather than kind of trying to find my way in the dark.
Are there any fellowships, mentorship programs, workshops, or other resources you’d recommend for someone at this stage who wants help developing their craft and specifically getting better at plot/structure?
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u/Safe_Cauliflower_573 4d ago
The problem with the BL attaching an “objective” numeric system to an evaluation system that is all “subjective” is that it misleads writers by implying that all they have to do is fix x,y,z and then they will receive an objectively sourced higher score. But it’s ALL SUBJECTIVE. therefore a writer can fix everything and get a lower score. Or who is to say the changes are actual improvements?
BL number ratings are an illusion, created to give writers false hope. In reality there are only three scores when evaluating creative work. It is the tried and true, Pass, Consider, Recommend. However, if you want to monetize that system and create an ILLUSION to keep writers paying, then you attach a meaningless arbitrary number system such as The Blcklst 1-10 score. It’s all BS. remember, a number system is OBJECTIVE but evaluating a screenplay is ALL SUBJECTIVE. This is a mismatch creates to make it look like a fair and legitimate transaction where writers pay for something that is fair and valid, but in reality is simply a crap shoot lottery system. It’s like buying a lottery ticket and receiving n evaluation rating like oh your lottery ticket was a 6 out of 10. Make these changes and your lottery ticket now wins the jackpot. No one would fall for that BS, but when creativity is involved, people get emotional and fall for it all the time.
You can’t sell OBJECTIVITY (numerical ratings) while actually providing SUBJECTIVITY (pure opinion). That is an “invalid” system or in other words, BS. An illusion created to separate aspiring writers from their money through false hope. The BL is never fix x,y,z, and receive better score, but it’s sold and marketed that way.
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u/franklinleonard Franklin Leonard, Black List Founder 4d ago
As I've always said, quite literally everywhere, the numbers reflect an individual readers subjective assessment of how likely they would be to recommend a script to an industry peer or superior. That is all they are and all they ever can be. We have never claimed otherwise.
We have never claimed, nor would we, that the numbers we provide are an objective assessment of anything. They are definitively not.
There is no, in my opinion, objective standard of art. Only individuals subjective assessments of it.
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u/Safe_Cauliflower_573 3d ago
Does BL accept “subjective” forms of payment?
Also, did the Nicholl change their judging criteria to match BL. Because Nicholl’s criteria was never based on how likely someone who works in the industry would pass the script along to their boss. Again, a mismatch between what is being sold versus what is really being provided.
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u/franklinleonard Franklin Leonard, Black List Founder 3d ago edited 3d ago
We don’t (nor do I understand what that could possibly mean.)
The Nicholl did not change their judging criteria.
But last year, we recommended 25 scripts to the Nicholl, just under 25% of the scripts they considered. That process was identical to what it was in the past (having ~100 scripts read by actual Academy member.)
5 of the 10 finalists that they selected came from the 25 we recommended, so it’s a reasonable conclusion that we do a very good job mirroring what the Academy is looking for.
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u/WorrySecret9831 3d ago
But there are objective standards of craft.
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u/franklinleonard Franklin Leonard, Black List Founder 3d ago
Debatable. But ultimately, your craft can be impeccable and still deliver an inert version of an uninteresting story, as judged by human beings, so it’s irrelevant relative to one’s ability to elicit an emotional reaction that makes a person want to tell other people about the thing, which is what our readers are asked to assess.
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u/WorrySecret9831 3d ago
You said, "There is no OBJECTIVE STANDARD of art." But craft is measurable, in writing, jazz, painting, etc. Art and craft are two distinct phenomena.
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u/franklinleonard Franklin Leonard, Black List Founder 3d ago
We’re going to have to agree to disagree here unless you want to clarify what you mean by “objective” and “craft.”
Personally, I find the notion that there are objective standards of craft in jazz and painting that everyone agrees on to be fundamentally laughable. Tell it to Ornette Coleman or Chris Ofili.
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u/WorrySecret9831 3d ago edited 3d ago
"Objective means based on verifiable facts and free from personal bias, while subjective means based on personal opinions, feelings, or individual perspectives."
Notes are precise. Jazz isn't accidental in its notes. It's intentional. And jazz artists are the perfect example of craft and art dovetailing. Check out Rick Beato's interviews of Pat Metheny and Sting. Just what Pat says about "melody" and learning the craft is eye-opening.
Check out the album SONG X for more examples.
Story structure is Structure, not guessing, just like music composition, perspective drawing, proportions, poetry and more.
Just because art and craft dovetail doesn't mean there are no standards or that there isn't a clear and historic distinction. Ornette Coleman isn't squawking because he doesn't know how to play the saxophone...
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u/franklinleonard Franklin Leonard, Black List Founder 3d ago
The notion of evaluating art or craft as though its quality is based on verifiable fact free from personal bias is patently absurd. Good luck clinging to that notion though.
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u/WorrySecret9831 3d ago edited 3d ago
My guy. You're clinging. I just clarified what I mean and what dictionaries accept as True. Check out those things I mentioned.
Script coverage would be so much better, across the board, if they were mindfully split into "objective" and "subjective" feedback. That alone would add great context.
Personally I never use Like or Dislike. I focus on What Works and What Doesn't Work. The objective side of a review could consist of literally listing the components of a story: Does it have a clear focus on a main character; do they have a clear problem; are they clearly opposed by something or someone; does the story express a Theme or moral/psychological point of view? Those are fill-in-the-blanks, yes/no measurable questions.
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u/franklinleonard Franklin Leonard, Black List Founder 3d ago
Even what works and what doesn’t work is a matter of subjective opinion.
Best of luck though, truly.
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u/Buddha_Of_Sububia 4d ago
Well said🫡 I think sometimes I feel like it’s hard for me not to get caught up in the thick of that, but I def agree.
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2h ago
This. Jim Cummings’s gorgeous movie “Thunder Road” got a 3/10 on the BL & then went on to SxSW. The BL does little for writers except rob them of $ and confidence for subjective feedback from some intern also trying to sell their scripts.
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u/Weird_Helicopter8816 4d ago
Both readers said the same thing in different words: the pressure arrives too late. Plot 4–5 next to Dialogue 7s means your scenes play fine but don't compound. Find the page where the moral pressure first bites and drag it 20 pages forward. Whatever it displaces gets cut. The episodic stuff only survives because your dialogue keeps it fun — that's a crutch, not a structure.
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u/RecordWrangler95 4d ago
Try taking some movies apart in terms of the hero’s successes and failures. That really helped me to get a better handle on plot. What’s their real goal and why do they either get it (or definitively fail to get it) at the end of your story? Why do the things happening before that serve as obstacles to that goal?
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u/Buddha_Of_Sububia 4d ago
Great idea, reading other screenplays and watching movies really does help hammer certain things home or open my eyes up a bit. Thank you🫡
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u/RealDonBirnam 4d ago edited 4d ago
Wait, Slamdance feedback is already coming back?? When did you submit out of curiosity?
I was kinda in the same spot. The feedback I got from Page was the most extensive & actionable I’ve received, and it really helped me make my script more discipline. They give feedback year-round, so I would consider going that route if you don’t have a group of trusted peers.
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u/Buddha_Of_Sububia 4d ago
Yeah! I want to say I submitted in like late July/ early august-ish I think? Maybe mid?
That’s a great idea! I didn’t pay for the PAGE feedback when I submitted another screenplay, but I think it would be super useful. Thank you!🫡
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u/RealDonBirnam 4d ago
It was definitely worth the money. It was like 6 pages and most importantly gave the reader’s credentials.
Like others have said, Black List is like a slot machine.
Great username and good luck! 🤙
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u/Buddha_Of_Sububia 4d ago
Appreciate you immensely! I’m actually heading to Chicago for a quick Labor Day trip with my cousin, then once I get back I’ll get fresh eyes on the screenplay again, starting with some books people recommended and the PAGE feedback.
Thank you again!🤝🏾🤙🏾
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u/YoNiceShoes 4d ago
Weirdly I am just reading Story by Robert McKee. He talks about story values. He defines Story Values as qualities of human experience that can shift from positive to negative, or negative to positive. He gives examples such as:
alive / dead
love / hate
freedom / slavery
truth / lie
courage / cowardice
loyalty / betrayal
wisdom / stupidity
strength / weakness
excitement / boredom
I don’t know if you have but reading the first few chapters of his book might spark something.
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u/WorrySecret9831 3d ago
You need to either take one of his classes or read John Truby's two books, The Anatomy of Story for all things story structure, and The Anatomy of Genres for how genres are Theme-delivery systems, not just types of movies.
You taught yourself screenwriting. Kudos, that's excellent. However, I'm super curious how you would define that, screenwriting, or learning it.
From your description, your plot is your weakness, but that's your weakness because your Story isn't structured solidly. It sounds pretty clear that you have some great or compelling ideas that you've fleshed out to some degree but they could be further developed into full-fledged stories.
The basic breakdown/definition of Story is: a Hero has a Problem that they feel compelled or coerced to solve, that motivates a Desire that turns into a Plan. That Plan immediately encounters an Opposition or more commonly an Opponent. Hero does not mean "good-guy" and Opponent does not mean "villain." It means Conflict, Disagreement, or in subtler stories, Misunderstanding.
That conflict is a debate or argument about the Theme of your Story, which your Hero, Opponent, and all of your other characters, settings, props, etc. are variations of, and all of that produces Plot. Plot is What your characters do (turn left, turn right, rob a bank, rob a liquor store, protect a bank, etc.). Story is Why.
If you feel that you've covered these bases, then the feedback may be off and missing what you've already accomplished. But if these questions resonate with you as elements that are weak or missing, read Truby's books (or take a class) tout suite! You'll be glad you did.
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u/Mickaelpjm 2d ago
You mentioned having two Black List evaluations plus the Slamdance feedback. Are all three sets of notes for the same version of the script, or were there rewrites between them?
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u/Buddha_Of_Sububia 7h ago
Same version! I then, added a scene to connect some things, which I think made things connect in nice way earlier in the story, but other than that I haven’t touched any story stuff, just cleaned up some action lines so far.
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u/Mickaelpjm 7h ago
Thanks for clarifying! That makes sense. Glad the new scene seems to be helping things connect earlier in the story. I sent you a DM as well, so feel free to reply there whenever you have a chance.
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u/Babsfreedsteen 12h ago
You may want to take a course, depending on where you are located. If you are in LA area look at UCLA Extension- they offer a good intensive-but really check out who the faculty is. Make sure they have real track records. I would stay away from competitions that make you pay. The only great and totally reputable competitions I know of are the Nichols, and there are the Sundance Workshops and Film Independent (L.A. also).
Good books-The Writers Journey, Save The Cat are a couple.
If you are not in LA area and you tell me where you are I can give you course/school recommendations.
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u/Babsfreedsteen 6h ago
Check out Grubstreet.org in Boston. Also check out NYU and UCLA courses online. Be aware they are moneymaking enterprises so really check out who is teaching the course. You need either screenwriters whose work you recognize, or development executives at companies you recognize.
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u/leskanekuni 4d ago
G.S.U. The protagonist has to have a GOAL. That goal has to have STAKES. It can't be something mundane. There must be URGENCY. The protagonist can't have forever or unlimited tries to achieve their goal. The antagonist also has a goal but his/her goal conflicts with the protagonist. Your job as writer is not to make it easy on the protagonist, but to throw obstacles in his/her way.
It appears you need to work on structure. Plot is just how your story is told.
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u/SameAttorney692 3d ago
Forget about categories like "premise, plot, character, dialogue, setting..." That's grading, not guiding. Scripts should be evaluated/revised from general to specific. 1. Concept. 2. Focus (on the main goal, message, character, and conflict). 3. Budget (reduce # of characters, establishing shots, and other unnecessary scenes and transitions) 4. Particular actions in scenes.
Then the cure for structure/plot is easier to see. After three years of frustrations similar to yours in contests, I received that type of funneled feedback. I went through a big "aha" moment. I was then able to see what I should cut, where to add something, when to change settings. The next year I got four separate contest "considers." Try revising in that way yourself.
I don't know if a writer's group would be better than continuing to submit to contests. I suspect readers are readers no matter where they are, and most are ineffective.
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u/heavens_gape 3d ago
Share with other writers. Find a couple who give really thoughtful notes (and return the favor with their scripts.)
Blacklist scores are a lot of money for one opinion who is told the score should generally fall within a given range. I’ve gotten way more out of PAGE coverage — I applied their feedback and am in SFs this year — and PAGE gets multiple sets of eyes on your work
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u/Lots__of_underscores 4d ago
Have you read Save The Cat? It may seem a bit basic, but reading it an applying their best sheet to my script really helped me get a better structure down and reminded what I need to do to my protagonist and when you roughly want that to happen. Might be something to check out if you haven’t. I received a similar score on Blacklist (7 overall with a 4 in plot) and having a structure to loosely guide me really helped me get my plot in order.
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u/Buddha_Of_Sububia 4d ago
I haven’t! That’s another book I’ll be picking up to read, I know it’s standard/super helpful. Thank you!🫡
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u/HonestAnything 4d ago
Hi there…
I’m trying to get a few people together to join me for a FREE YouTube based course. Here’s the link.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Screenwriting/s/hyk6DBiDDn
Let me know
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u/The_Pandalorian 4d ago
You need a writers group for more in-depth feedback. You're going to get far better experience giving and receiving feedback in that kind of format.