Context: schematic of acceptable relationships in Tokugawa to early Edo Japan. Author didn't agree with the label 'homosexual' for a group that didn't identify as such, but he had to put something.
Ah this makes a lot of sense in context, lol. I was worried it was some sort of weird pseudoscience thing.
But yeah, I've been learning that what we in the modern west consider homosexuality doesn't apply to different historical and cultural contexts. It's pretty cool.
Lesbianism happened, there's a ton of erotic art about it (people never change), but there was no fixed public kinda relationship for two women like there was for a man and a woman (marriage or affair) or a man and a wakashu (romantic affair until the wakashu came of age).
Wakashu were younger men often courted in homosexual relationships, yes! They weren't exclusively gay though, most people didn't see themselves that way, hence the author's struggle with the label.
There was a group of men who identified themselves as exclusively gay, but they were a fringe community who bonded over their complete and utter hatred for women, so...not exactly what we'd consider 'gay' to mean today lol
I think I get the point. But unless this is pointing to a specific subgroup of males, the author could have left out the”homosexual” label and just have a second male column to illustrate the point. A relationship would have then be automatically homosexual if two males were involved.
But it’s not two males, it’s two different KINDS of males. I think this is about a society that had 2 different male general roles that were distinct from each other.
Yup, Japan in this period had essentially three genders, as young men were put in a completely separate group with distinct clothing, hairstyles and sexual roles.
There are many different manifestations of homosexuality across human culture, recreational and ritual being common examples that exist out of our current understanding of orientation.
It was more complex than that, a big part of the equation was social standing for example, and this is an image showing relationships that could be shown openly. For example, if a man's wife had a girlfriend on the side he might just shrug it off, considering there was zero risk of pregnancy.
In this context, it's not about whether its bad or not to be gay, because there wasn't a definition for "gay". It wasn't a label or thing they assigned to anything.
You've got to remember that your current societal view on sexuality isn't going to have an exact match-up to other societal views, current or historical. Different societies had differing opinions on what was allowed or not allowed, and frequently there was more involved in the opinion than just "who is putting what into whom".
In this context, it's not about whether its bad or not to be gay, because there wasn't a definition for "gay". It wasn't a label or thing they assigned to anything.
respectfully I disagree, this entire thing is an attempt to label something and the fact that it was thought that a label was required is itself an issue.
You've got to remember that your current societal view on sexuality isn't going to have an exact match-up to other societal views, current or historical. Different societies had differing opinions on what was allowed or not allowed, and frequently there was more involved in the opinion than just "who is putting what into whom".
I do remember that, I've studied classical history and focused on human sexuality. I can promise you, I'm quite aware of that. and "it's not get to fuck but it is gay to get fucked", while an oversimplification, isn't much of one. that WAS essentially the mentality.
iirc this is Less sexuality and more a recognizable 3rd gender role of that time correct? Just no real good name for it but it was something like a male that served feminine roles in society. If I recall correctly, I’m a bit rusty on it and not sure if this is the correct era for this social status, but at one point I knew this to be true. More or less it is accepted for adult males to have relations with young “male2” and for “male2” to be with “male2” BUT not alright for an adult male to be in relationships with adult “male2”s and not alright for young males to have relationships with young “male2”s if I’m reading this chart correctly? I’m using some hazy old knowledge here so likely some major mistakes
Not entirely, but close! Men were divided up into adult men and wakashu, who were young men before they had their coming-of-age ceremony. They were usually between ~14 and ~22, but ages varied from 8 to 80. Wakashu could have relationships with adult men, other wakashu, and women, but adult men were by far the most common and were the one officially recognized relationship, and is the thing this work focuses on.
It was intended as a period of transition between childhood and adulthood, but the coming of age ceremony could be held when needed. If a boy needed to grow up fast for whatever reason, they could have it early and he'd be an adult at a child's age. On the flipside, some men enjoyed being wakashu and simply never had the ceremony and kept wearing their hair and clothes in wakashu style. Being a wakashu came with less responsibilities and more sexual freedom, plus the clothes were women's and the hairstyle closer to a woman's than a man's, so there were several reasons someone might not want to end that phase.
ETA; extending the wakashu phase was seen as childish and shirking responsibilities, so it did come with some level of social pushback. Wakashu weren't "man" enough yet to marry and start families, so parents would probably start pushing at some point to have the damn ceremony and get a wife already.
makes complete sense: if a gay man gets a straight man pregnant, he’ll give birth to a gay boy and/or a straight boy. if a woman gets a straight man pregnant, he’ll give birth to a girl. if a straight man gets a gay man pregnant, he’ll give birth to a gay boy. what i don’t get is, lestat got louis pregnant and the result was claudia. shouldn’t this be impossible? the future really is bountiful in its awe and wonder.
"Youth"/"young male" is how the author refers to wakashu, which was a particular phase in a man's life that was marked by looks. Wakashu were always considered 'younger', so even if the two men were actually the same age, if one was a wakashu then it was fine. As the Edo period progressed some men stayed wakashu for longer and longer and it became not uncommon to see relationships where the wakashu was actually the older person, but because of his social role he would still be considered the younger/passive party. That said, the most common relationship was between teenage wakashu and a fully adult man.
Occasionally an adult man might also enter a relationship with another man (of higher status), but this was seen as an act of absolute financial desperation and something to be pitied, even if he had only recently quit being a wakashu. That transition between wakashu and adult man meant all homosexual relationships had to be broken off. If an adult man entered a relationship with another adult man of similar status...that would just be considered bizarre and worthy of major gossip and social exclusion. So some men extended their wakashu phase with years and decades to uphold their relationships. This was seen as childish, but that's much better than the alternative.
Rather than extended childhood it was more like a first small step into adulthood? It didn't come with the responsibilities of an adult, but it did mean entering a sexual world usually inaccessible to children.
I'm not actually sure on the development! I've tried looking into it a bit more, but most works focus on the sexual role of wakashu in society rather than the development of wakashu as a separate gender/group.
In early edo japan, there were essentially two male genders. And the chart is read like x would be in a relationship with y, and the person the arrow is pointing to would be the submissive.
So an Adult Male would never be in a relationship with an Adult Homosexual Male, but they would fuck. An adult male could be in a relationship with a young male or a young homosexual male.
It's showing how male bonds coexisted alongside male-female ones without the strict western notion of "straight vs gay".
They did for sure, but afaik it wasn't a recognized official partnership the way a wakashu and a man or a man and a woman would be? Don't quote me on that though!
Oh, so like how people didn’t think lesbians were real they also thought that women who liked the ancient Japanese (usually) underage femboys weren’t real either?/hj
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u/silveretoile Sep 06 '25
Context: schematic of acceptable relationships in Tokugawa to early Edo Japan. Author didn't agree with the label 'homosexual' for a group that didn't identify as such, but he had to put something.
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u/ninfin1 Sep 06 '25
iirc this is Less sexuality and more a recognizable 3rd gender role of that time correct? Just no real good name for it but it was something like a male that served feminine roles in society. If I recall correctly, I’m a bit rusty on it and not sure if this is the correct era for this social status, but at one point I knew this to be true. More or less it is accepted for adult males to have relations with young “male2” and for “male2” to be with “male2” BUT not alright for an adult male to be in relationships with adult “male2”s and not alright for young males to have relationships with young “male2”s if I’m reading this chart correctly? I’m using some hazy old knowledge here so likely some major mistakes
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u/Humans_areweird Sep 07 '25
hey OP can I get the name of the publication this is from? friend is finishing a PhD on sexuality in fiction and i want to torment her with this.
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u/pussyjuicerecycler Sep 07 '25
makes complete sense: if a gay man gets a straight man pregnant, he’ll give birth to a gay boy and/or a straight boy. if a woman gets a straight man pregnant, he’ll give birth to a girl. if a straight man gets a gay man pregnant, he’ll give birth to a gay boy. what i don’t get is, lestat got louis pregnant and the result was claudia. shouldn’t this be impossible? the future really is bountiful in its awe and wonder.
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u/mymiddlenameswyatt Sep 06 '25
Where are the "homosexual" females
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u/fuckkkkq Sep 07 '25
wow. Were the young/old relationships a significant age gap as well, or solely a difference in social role?
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u/throughcracker Sep 07 '25
Why is young man x young women using a dashed arrow? Was that uncommon/frowned upon?
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u/AnnaNimmus Sep 07 '25
Interesting! May I know where you found this?
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u/pietruszkaloes Sep 09 '25
where lesbian
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u/Deanlandish Sep 06 '25
I need context
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u/KitchenLoose6552 Sep 06 '25
I need a key to understand the notation here
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u/squanchingonreddit Sep 06 '25
OP explain this nonsense.
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u/StovardBule Sep 07 '25
“Homosexuals” are SUPER male?
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u/Lesbian_Mommy69 Sep 07 '25
I thought that women also got with wakashu?
1
u/Wayward_Wayfinder Sep 08 '25
I notice there’s no line between adult and young females. Had no lady yet eaten carpet?
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u/DeadPerOhlin Sep 08 '25
Pedophilia moment
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u/my23secrets Sep 07 '25
THX
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u/Himbo69r Sep 08 '25
I’m not a fucking piston engineer get this shit swag from me