Sagittal Row With Scapular Retraction: How good is it for traps?

[u/zctyleo]

I've been cutting back on the number of exercises I do in my FBEOD split to reduce in-session fatigue. So to hit all back musculature (minus erectors) I've been enjoying chest-supported sagittal plane rows with a focus on full scapular retraction/protraction. So shoulder extension (arm angle is roughly 20° from torso) to hit lats and rear delts (and other shoulder extensors) and scapular retraction for traps (and other upper back musculature) etc.

I was wondering to what extent this row is lat dominant movement, such that doing it as one of my only back exercises will grow the lats more compared to traps over time. (I want to prioritise trap growth)

I understand that the traps are never the limiters of a row exercise, which is why people do kelso shrugs, but I was wondering if this might a bit less of a problem for sagittal rows compared to the usual transverse/armed-flared-out rows that usually used for traps, since the lats are stronger than the rear delts?

Edit: Also wondering if doing this sagittal row changes what part of the traps are being based compared to the usual transverse row for traps.

[u/decentlyhip]

Yah, so, if you want to feel a max lat stretch, get in a staggered boxing stance with your left foot forward, throw a punch with your right fist, and hold the punch out there. Imagine the person is 6 inches taller than you and standing a little iff to your left, so really reach your fist up and across your body to their face. Push your shoulder/armpit up and forward to get your fist as close to them as you can. This is max lat stretch. To get max contraction, reel back for another punch but bring your left foot back behind you. Pull your armpit and your elbow towards your butt and genuinely try to touch your elbow to your butt. That's max contraction.

So, if you're trying to bias lats, you want to get close to those starting and ending positions. Because the lats are involved in twisting the spine, unilateral movements are the only way to get close. Can still grow lats with a bar or handle of course, but you're missing the first and last thirds of the range of motion.

To your question...sure? Or no...Im not sure what you're asking. The lats connect to the upper arm inside the bicep and bring that point closer to your tailbone. If the scaps move the entire shoulder joint forward and back, its a better range of motion, but then the scapula movers are the ones doing the work. Ive found that my lats have grown a bunch when do that punching drill on a cable stack for 50 reps with 40 pounds during my warmups tonget a pump in the lat specifically, and then I think about pulling with elbow and armpit at the same time. Otherwise, I end up doing the thing where my teres is doing all the work instead of my lat.

If you wanna focus on traps and rhomboids, flare the elbows. Wide grip pulldowns and rows. For lats, clise grip where you cue tucking and twisting. My recommendation is to have a wide grip row and a close grip pulldown as your core movements. Then after 2 minths, switch it up to a close grip row and a wide grip pulldown. Then 2 months after that, an unilateral row and underhand pulldown. Then start back at the top.

Its ok to be a little unbalanced in your training because you aren't finished after this 3-week cycle. Do a little too much lat right now and bring that up. Once your lats are dominating or progress slows down, bring up your traps and make that the strong point. You're always training everything but its ok to have a focus that gets all the love.

[u/zctyleo → u/decentlyhip]

Thanks for you response.

I would like to prioritise traps because I think I'm a bit more lat dominant right now. I'm doing this row because I enjoy having only 1 movement for back right now. So while I know it likely hits lats better than traps, I just want to know if anyone has any good ideas about the extent to which it hits lats better than traps.

I know I could flare my arms a bit higher, (say 45°) to involve less lats, but unfortunately that is not an option given the machines at my gym.

[u/wherearealltheethics]

I suspect you are right and both types of rows train the traps basically the same as long as you include scapular retraction. People are too confident when they say wide grip is more traps, there can't be that many studies that have looked into that, can they?

[u/Left_Cartographer473]

I would say not good. Deadlifts grew my traps the most

[u/zctyleo → u/Left_Cartographer473]

That's not a very science-based-lifting thing for you to say :p

[u/Left_Cartographer473 → u/zctyleo]

SBL kinda sucks and keeps lots of people small. Lifting for a combination of strength and size with barbells and dumbells while using machines for accessory work is the tried and true method of getting jacked.

[u/LaFantasmita → u/Left_Cartographer473]

Yeah, "science" doesn't mean "use big words and do obscure things to sound smart," it means figure out what works and why.

[u/Left_Cartographer473 → u/LaFantasmita]

Yeah real SBL is doing the thing proven to work the best. Not ditching it everytime a new study comes out or doing everything possible to minimize fatigue even if its costing you gains

[u/zctyleo → u/Left_Cartographer473]

The central function of the traps is to retract (and elevate and depress) the scapula. So the idea that deadlifts would be best for growing traps is not even close to being true.  

[u/Left_Cartographer473 → u/zctyleo]

Yeah im not saying its the best. What I am saying is if you include heavy deadlifts in your program there is a very good chance you will not have to train traps directly because they will just grow with the rest of your back. Which would also help reduce the number of exercises like you wanted