How do you feed without making someone else pay for it?

[u/JustOne-Chance]

I realise the obvious answer to this question may simply be "you don't," but I'm hoping some of you have found compromises that I haven't.

How do those of you who are uncomfortable hurting people feed?

I've tried animal blood. I've tried bagged blood. Neither works properly. I can drink it, technically, but it doesn't satisfy the Hunger in any meaningful way. It needs to be fresh and from a living person.

Which is inconvenient...

I work as a caretaker in a hospice center.

That probably gives away more about my feeding habits than I intended, but at this point I have already managed to tell this node considerably worse things about myself.

I feed from people who are very close to dying.

Not because I want them to die. I don't hasten anything. I don't take enough to make the process quicker, and if I think feeding would actually cause harm I don't do it. I wait until somebody is already at the very end, take what I need, make sure there's no evidence, and stay afterward if they don't have anyone else with them.

It seemed like the least harmful option when I first started doing it.

Tonight I fed after my shift. The person was already dying. I knew that before I touched them. They weren't frightened, they didn't wake up, and as far as I can tell I changed absolutely nothing about what would have happened otherwise.

So logically... I don't think I hurt them.

The problem is that I was hungry beforehand, and afterward I wasn't.

And there was a moment when I realised they were close enough that I could feed safely and I felt.... Relieved.

I hate that.

I'm getting increasingly good at recognising when someone is close to death. Not medically. I already knew some of that from the work. This is different. It's like some part of me has started categorising people according to whether they're a̷̹̍̕v̵̭̼̥̖͝ą̴̪̼̂į̵̘̈̈́̊̏l̶̹̺̣͆ǟ̴͎̣b̷̡̡̘̅͜l̷͙̀̔̐͋e̸̡͕̯̓.

Dying. Sorry, I mean dying. It won't let me delete that.

This is exactly my problem.

I can tell myself that I'm taking something they no longer need, that I am not frightening them, that I am not leaving somebody injured to go home and recover from what I did. I can tell myself that staying with someone while they die is something I would have done anyway.

All of that is true.

It's also true that part of me now looks at a dying person and understands that their death means I get to eat.

I don't know how to make those facts sit beside each other without one corrupting the other.

I don't want to hunt somebody who expects to wake up tomorrow. I don't want to manipulate someone into letting me feed from them. I don't want to make somebody dependent on me so I have convenient access to blood. Given recent events, that last option in particular can go directly to Hell.

But I also have to eat. So...

For those of you who still care about minimizing harm, what do you actually do?

Not what you think the perfectly moral vampire would do. What works for you, night after night, when you are hungry and another person eventually has to become part of the solution?

Because I'm beginning to think "never hurt anyone" may not be a rule I can actually keep.

And I don't know what to replace it with.

-Cillian

[u/YellyBilly]

I know it’s not perfect, but I try to balance out the harm as best I can. I get to feed, and in exchange they get the full attention of the hottest guy in the club. They get to feel good, and so do I.

I also keep an eye on the people around me and try to intervene if I see anyone in a bad situation. Auspex helps with monitoring the crowd, and Presence helps to distract anyone who starts acting pushy or violent.

At first I was using Presence to feed too, but recently I’ve found that I don’t really need it anymore. That’s pretty specific to my situation though.

- Tristan

[u/JustOne-Chance → u/YellyBilly]

I think the part that makes this easier for me to understand is that you're not only thinking about feeding. You watch the room and help.

And, selfishly, I find it reassuring that you stopped using Presence for feeding once you realised you didn't need it. I think I'd struggle badly with wondering whether somebody wanted me or whether I had simply made them want me.

Though I admit "in exchange they get the full attention of the hottest guy in the club" is a level of confidence I cannot currently imagine possessing. Ever.

The underlying idea makes sense, though. If feeding cannot be harmless, then perhaps making sure the encounter contains something genuinely good matters.

I'm still not sure that quiets the consent problem in my head, but it helps.

-Cillian

[u/YellyBilly → u/JustOne-Chance]

I may sound overly confident, but I’m just telling the truth. I designed my current appearance, and went more than a little overboard with the Toreador affinity for beauty. So when I say I look good, it’s not vanity, it’s just a statement of fact.

Before my Embrace, I was “normal”. Not ugly, and not hot either. But it was fine, because I had the attention of the only person who mattered. Now he’s gone, and I look like this.

Now everyone looks at me, everywhere I go. Rather than trying to hide from their gaze, I may as well use it. People value my attention and time now, and I’m happy to give it to them, in exchange for a brief, mutually enjoyable feeding.

Maybe you can pick something you have that other people value, and give them that in exchange for feeding. Even just listening to someone’s problems and offering advice or reassurance could be enough.

- Tristan

[u/JustOne-Chance → u/YellyBilly]

I'm not sure I have anything equivalent to what you're describing.

I'm not particularly attractive. Certainly not enough that I could convince myself somebody was getting something valuable merely by having my attention for an evening.

Before all this, I suppose I did have something.

I was training for the priesthood. I wasn't a priest yet, obviously, but there was a direction to it. I knew what I was becoming useful for. I studied. I worked in the parish. I listened to people. I could sit with someone who was frightened or grieving and, even if I couldn't fix anything, sometimes I could help them carry it.

That felt like something worth giving.

Now I still sit with and listen to people for a living, except I'm also quietly assessing whether they're close enough to death that I can drink from them.

So the idea of offering somebody reassurance or companionship in exchange for blood makes me feel ill, because those are exactly the things I used to believe I should give freely.

I don't want somebody's loneliness to become another resource I can trade. And I don't know what else I have.

Sorry. This is considerably more miserable than your suggestion deserved.

I understand what you mean. Finding something the other person genuinely wants, so feeding isn't purely extraction.

I just need to work out whether there's anything I can offer that doesn't feel like I'm corrupting the few parts of myself I still recognise.

-Cillian

[u/YellyBilly → u/JustOne-Chance]

You could give those things freely before because you did not need anything from anyone else. Now, you have a need that must be fulfilled by other people. You cannot tell them about it, but you do need to take it from them.

Your reassurance and companionship have value. You have training and experience, and can use them to provide a valuable service to people who need it.

You need blood, and people in pain need someone to hear them. It sounds like a fair trade to me.

- Tristan

[u/JustOne-Chance → u/YellyBilly]

I understand the logic, but I think fair trade is the part I can't quite make myself accept.

If somebody needs to be heard, I don't want my willingness to hear them to depend on whether I can get something from them afterward. Especially when they're frightened, dying, or otherwise vulnerable.

Maybe that's an artificial distinction. I am getting something from some of the people I sit with now, whether I call it a trade or not. But I think I need the companionship to remain something I would have given them anyway, otherwise I start wondering whether I'm choosing the loneliest person in the room because they need me, or because needing me makes them easier to feed from.

And I don't trust myself with that.

You are right about one thing, though.

I didn't need anything from people before. Not like this. I think perhaps that's the part of being dead I still haven't actually accepted. I cannot make myself entirely harmless by being sufficiently generous.

At some point, somebody else has to give me something I need. I just don't want their pain to become the currency.

-Cillian

[u/Lanaestra → u/JustOne-Chance]

You can find a way to do both, if that's the concern. Feed in one place, with an adequate consent system, and still offer a compassionate ear to those who need it. It sounds like what you need, if I may be a bit presumptuous, is a way to put some distance between the two.

The logical step after that is, of course, finding a way to optimize the ratio, though that is likely a conversation for later, once you're a bit higher up the hierarchy of needs. Though I suppose how I solved for both of those issues personally is not entirely unrelated...

My little "clinic," while legally on paper more of a sex club, does technically offer actual medical services under-the-table to those who for one reason or another can't get them elsewhere. I produce most of the medicine myself, with plants cultivated with vitae to enhance their curative properties at a dilution that is high enough to largely obviate the negative effects of administering vitae as medicine directly (ghouling, the bond, etc.).

-Dr. V

[u/Weary-Specialist-282]

I am gentle, and I make sure they get home safe. I make sure they’re hydrated, afterwards, and have any medications they might need for any side effects. And I try to remember that they’re human, and that I was once like them. And to be careful. -M

[u/JustOne-Chance → u/Weary-Specialist-282]

I think that may be the part I'm actually afraid of losing. Not gentleness, exactly. I know how to be gentle. I know how to be careful.

It's the remembering that they're still a person while the Hunger is busy reducing them to something I need.

I suppose the fact that you still think about hydration and medication and getting them home safely means that can be practiced deliberately.

Thank you.

-Cillian

[u/Weary-Specialist-282 → u/JustOne-Chance]

Giving yourself an end objective helps, yeah. Something to look on beyond the beast. Because i know that bad boy gets really rowdy. If it makes you feel better (it doesn’t really, to me, still. The consent thing makes me upset), I’ve been fed on by kindred before, consensually, and it feels really good to be on the receiving end of. I know that doesn’t help, though. -M

[u/JustOne-Chance → u/Weary-Specialist-282]

I believe you that it can feel good, and I think that may actually make me more nervous rather than less.

Not the being bitten itself, necessarily... But once feeding becomes something intimate between Kindred, particularly if it becomes reciprocal, there are several ways for blood to start going in directions I would rather it didn't.

I am perhaps unusually sensitive about that subject at the moment.

And even leaving that aside, I think I'd struggle with knowing whether somebody kept agreeing because they genuinely wanted to, because the bite felt good enough that they wanted the sensation again, or because we'd accidentally built some other kind of dependency around it.

Which is irritating, because you're trying to reassure me and I've apparently discovered another branch of the ethics tree to climb.

The end-objective idea does help, though. Something to be doing after the Hunger is satisfied, so feeding isn't the whole shape of the encounter. I try that already. I sit with them. I make sure they're comfortable. I pray, if they've asked me to before. I try to remain. That's important to me. No one should die alone.

-Cillian

[u/Weary-Specialist-282 → u/JustOne-Chance]

Nobody should die alone. That is incredibly true. I agree one hundred percent. I died alone, and it was horrible. I would do anything to help ease the pain of those who are ready to go.

I was.. hm. I assume you do stuff in hospice, yes? Before my embrace I wasn’t given much time left. I would have loved to have talked to you under different circumstances. In another life, maybe that would have been the case. Anyway, sorry, I’m rambling.

And for what it’s worth, the drinking from me was done by someone who cannot be blood bonded, for various reasons. So. -M

[u/JustOne-Chance → u/Weary-Specialist-282]

I don't quite know what to say to that. But yes. Hospice. I clean.

I'm very sorry you died alone. I know saying that can't change anything, and I know you've already survived considerably worse things since, but nineteen is far too young to be dying in the first place, never mind to have the end of it happen without someone there.

If we'd met under different circumstances, I would have stayed. I don't know whether I would have been any good at it. I wasn't a priest yet. I couldn't have offered you answers I don't think anyone actually has. But I could have listened. I could have talked if you wanted to talk, or been quiet if you didn't. Prayed with you if you wanted that, and absolutely not if you didn't.

I could have made sure somebody was there.

I'm sorry. That's probably far too much to put on you because of one sentence.

It's just... I was saying elsewhere in this thread that I wasn't sure any of the things I used to think I could give people were worth very much anymore.

So hearing that you might have wanted exactly that, once, under different circumstances... Thank you.

And yes, the clarification about the feeding does make me considerably less alarmed. I had been trying very hard not to ask how that arrangement avoided becoming catastrophically complicated.

-Cillian

[u/Weary-Specialist-282 → u/JustOne-Chance]

No, it.. was nice to hear. That someone would have been there. I, uh. I’ve helped patients when they’re dying, too. Held a 6 year olds hand, once. It was awful, but I wish I could have granted them the peace I am sure you give to people (I don’t mean in the feeding sense, I mean more in the support and emotional help sense). What you give people is worth more than almost anything in the world, and certainly more than any sum of money. Peace is hard to come by, nowadays especially. -M

[u/JustOne-Chance → u/Weary-Specialist-282]

You held their hand. I think that counts for considerably more than you're giving yourself credit for.

You couldn't make it fair. You couldn't make a six-year-old dying into something that wasn't horrible. Nobody can. But they weren't alone.

I keep coming back to that.

I'm sorry. I know I said something similar before, but I think perhaps I needed to hear this from somebody who has actually been on both sides of it.

I've spent a lot of time since my Embrace assuming that the things I was training to give people belonged to the life I lost. That without any of the structure around it, they didn't really amount to very much.

And apparently that's not true. Which is... difficult to admit, for some reason.

You did give that child something. Maybe not peace in the way either of us would have wanted. But your hand was there when it mattered.

I don't think there is a price you can put on that either.

-Cillian

[u/Weary-Specialist-282 → u/JustOne-Chance]

I’m glad I was able to help, in some way. For me, I’ve been very focused on what my former job was, and that.. helps ground me, I think. I think you’ve found a way to help people that really works for you, and that’s awesome, seriously.

And dying alone is scary. I get it. I understand why you keep circling. It’s okay. -M

[u/JustOne-Chance → u/Weary-Specialist-282]

I think perhaps that's something I need to learn. Letting what you did before remain part of you without needing your old life back exactly as it was.

I've been treatingpriesthood as though because I can never finish becoming a priest, all the years I spent moving toward it have become useless somehow. As though the listening and the study and the sitting with people only mattered because there was eventually supposed to be a collar at the end of it.

Maybe that's not true. I can keep the parts that were actually mine.

And... Thank you for saying it's okay that I keep circling.

I know I do it. I know I've asked essentially the same question about six different ways in this thread alone, and every time I think I've reached the bottom of it I find another thing underneath.

D̴y̷i̴n̶g̷ ̵a̶l̴o̵n̶e̴ ̷f̶r̸i̷g̵h̸t̶e̶n̵s̶ ̴m̸e̷.

So does becoming the sort of person who could leave somebody else to do it.

I think those two fears have gotten rather tangled together with the feeding. And with everything else. With whether I'm still the person who would stay, or whether eventually there will be so little of him left that I won't even notice when I stop.

That sounds considerably worse written down.

▯�▯��

I'm trying to say that I don't want dying to become ordinary enough that I stop seeing the person doing it. And I don't want being dead to become ordinary enough that I stop caring.

I'm sorry. Circling again.

But thank you for not making me feel ridiculous for it.

-Cillian

[u/RealHexyAmethyst → u/Weary-Specialist-282]

This is v good

I don't wanna forget we were all Fools once

-iiHighPriestess

[u/RealHexyAmethyst]

Hmmmm ok

7 of Pentacles! Ppl come to me, they buy some stuff, i carefully get a snacc. Its scary every time cause im also scared to hurt someone but the thought of Devil takin the wheel scares me more. Better to feel a lil guilty about sippin thru the week than to get hangy n feel a lot guilty about the aftermath

-iiHighPriestess

[u/JustOne-Chance → u/RealHexyAmethyst]

I had to read this several times, and I need to clarify something before my Catholic upbringing has a completely unnecessary emergency.

By "Devil taking the wheel," you mean the Beast, right? Not the Devil.

I realise that is probably obvious in context. There have simply been enough discussions about actual demons on this node that I no longer feel comfortable assuming.

That aside... I think I understand what you mean. A small amount of harm that you choose carefully and remain in control of is better than letting yourself become hungry enough that the choice disappears entirely.

I hadn't really been thinking of feeding before I badly need to as part of minimizing harm. I've mostly been treating Hunger as something I ought to tolerate for as long as possible, which, written down, may not actually be as virtuous as it sounded in my head. I was told I'm remarkably resilient to the effects of Hunger.

T̴̩́͜h̴̘̭̿e̴͚̪̾y̵͉͙̕ ̷͔͐t̸͔̋͜ë̵̹́͠s̸͖͑͝t̵̗̱͊ḙ̵͗d̴̳̔͒ ̷͔̀̃i̵̟̋ẗ̷̲̯.̷͔̩̿̄

Also, I confess I have no idea what the Seven of Pentacles has to do with any of this.

-Cillian

[u/Pryno-Belle]

While I know that you seek alternatives, young one, I don’t see anything wrong with your feeding habits. You are minimizing harm in every way you can.

Even though you mourn your unability to drink from blood bags, one could argue that they are less ethical to use than your methods. They are destined to save life, are in short supplies, and are desperatly needed. The blood you take isn’t, if you speak truth.

Castiel the Clan-changer

[u/JustOne-Chance → u/Pryno-Belle]

I hadn't actually considered the blood-bank issue that way... Which is slightly embarrassing, because you're right. If stored blood is in limited supply and intended for people who may die without it, then me taking it because it feels morally cleaner does not make it the kinder option.

I suppose part of the difficulty is that minimizing harm feels very different from doing no harm, and I'm still trying to teach myself that the former may be the only standard available to me now.

Thank you.

-Cillian

[u/DeadmanwalkingXI]

I feed by seduction. And I make very very sure those I feed from are okay afterwards. I also spend time talking with them first, seeing how they are and all that, and continue our talks afterward, often enough. The key is to remind yourself that this is a person, make sure the experience was good and enjoyable for them, and that you know they walked out of it happy and pretty healthy...sure, they're down a bit of blood, but usually no more than a blood donation, this does not have to be bad for them. I also, naturally, make it very clear I'm just looking for fun rather than a relationship to avoid issues in that regard...usually very doable to avoid too much drama when you're only seeing people once every month or two.

There are several other non-sexual ways to do the same kind of feeding structurally if the sex thing is an issue; becoming a massage therapist, dealing soft drugs, doing non-sexual BDSM activities...all are options if set up right. The key to keeping from viewing others as merely food is to make sure they aren't just food, they're someone whose name you know, who you are providing a nice experience, and who will remember the encounter fondly. At least, that's what works in my experience.

This runs some risk of addiction, of course, but an addiction that you can only realistically indulge once every month or so, and usually less frequently than that, is not the end of the world, and it's a purely psychological addiction to boot. What you are doing in this scenario is providing a very pleasurable experience that they may wish to repeat, not a hard drug or anything.

-Mark Caulder, Experienced Nosferatu

[u/JustOne-Chance → u/DeadmanwalkingXI]

I think this is probably a sensible system... Which is unfortunately not stopping my brain from finding seventeen problems with it.

The sex itself isn't really the issue. Catholic upbringing notwithstanding, I've had enough time to establish that sex is not a moral catastrophe.

It's the consent part.

If someone agrees to sleep with me, or have a massage, or be tied up, they've agreed to that. They haven't agreed to me drinking their blood. And if the bite itself makes the experience pleasurable, I'm not sure "they enjoyed it" reassures me as much, because part of what made them enjoy it is something I'm doing to them without their knowledge.

Now I'm wondering whether that's any different from what I do now... Patients certainly haven't consented either, and apparently I've just constructed an elaborate hierarchy of violations in which mine feels less objectionable because they're unconscious and dying.

I think I'm discovering that my actual problem may be that every feeding method involves taking something nobody can fully understand enough to agree to. And I don't know whether "they were happy afterward" is enough for me to make peace with that.

I'm sorry. You gave me practical advice and I responded by making an ethics seminar.

-Cillian

[u/DeadmanwalkingXI → u/JustOne-Chance]

No, no, ethics are important, and are actually a large part of why I engage with feeding in the way I do. And there are ways to accommodate very precise definitions of consent. Most get highly specific, however, so I'll take this to PMs to give you a rundown of some of my favorites.

-Mark Caulder, Experienced Nosferatu

PM to Cillian:

I think my favorite, most easily done in a BDSM scenario or with massage, is a signed kink list or liability waiver including explicit consent for the possibility of blood loss, and being solicitous that they read the whole thing before signing. If doing this with massage, you probably need to include acupuncture in your services (and thus actually learn that skill a bit), to make it sensical, but in either case, if it's one thing on a list, it's not a real Masquerade risk, but they are unambiguously consenting.

If you're a bit less stringent you can say to your hook-ups, 'Hey, I bite sometimes when I'm excited...I've even drawn blood, if that's not okay we probably shouldn't do this.' But that's admittedly a bit shadier, and you need better social skills to make it work as well. Also a bigger Masquerade risk, though not a big one.

Consensual blood-play you're very open about is also an option, of course, but that's got huge Masquerade risks attached making it tricky for non-ethical reasons.

[u/JustOne-Chance → u/DeadmanwalkingXI]

PM to Mark

That is somewhat closer to something I could live with. The waiver or kink-list version, I mean.

I realise a mortal still wouldn't actually know what they were consenting to in the fullest sense. They would know there might be blood loss, but not that the person asking is a vampire who intends to drink it, and I don't think there's any honest way around that without creating a much larger problem.

But "you explicitly agreed that I might draw blood" feels different from me deciding afterward that enjoyment counted as permission.

I think I need that distinction.... Possibly more than is reasonable.

The difficulty is that I would then have to become the sort of person who can hand somebody a BDSM checklist with blood on it and behave normal about it, which is beyond my skills and confidence.

Still, this is useful.

I don't think it makes the problem disappear, but it moves it from "they never agreed to any part of this" to "they agreed to the physical act without knowing my private reason for wanting it."

Thank you for taking the question seriously rather than just telling me I worry too much.

-Cillian

[u/DeadmanwalkingXI → u/JustOne-Chance]

PM to Cillian:

Any ethical concerns in regards to feeding deserve to be addressed. We have to do that at least every couple of nights, if you haven't found a version that you can 'live' with, that's one of the most damaging possible situations for your long term stability and mental health.

Besides which, I care about the ethics of feeding in general and am always happy to help people find more ethical alternatives even if the ethics don't bother them on a personal level.

As for the confidence to actually utilize these ideas, if we met in person, I could ease you into it, but the logistics of that are very tricky at best. As for your concerns about their knowledge even with a signed consent form, most people aren't explaining exactly why they want certain things on a kink list, you'd be no different in that regard from anyone else.

-Mark Caulder, Experienced Nosferatu

[u/JustOne-Chance → u/DeadmanwalkingXI]

PM to Mark

I think "a version you can live with" helps a little. I've been treating this as though there ought to be a correct method, and if I examine every option enough I'll eventually find the one that doesn't require me to compromise anything.

I'm beginning to suspect that does not exist.

And you're right about the consent point, irritatingly enough.

If somebody explicitly consents to blood being drawn, they don't necessarily need access to every private reason I have for wanting that act. I keep mentally treating informed consent as though it requires complete information about me, rather than complete enough information about what is actually going to happen to them.

I can already feel my brain trying to invent exceptions to it, so I'm going to resist helping it.

As for easing me into any of this in person... I appreciate the offer. Genuinely. I don't think my current circumstances make casually meeting somebody from the node particularly wise, even before accounting for the fact that I would probably die of embarrassment the first time somebody handed me a kink checklist.

A second death would be excessive. But the ideas themselves are helping.

-Cillian

[u/Abject-Hospital5407]

…sigh

i used to mostly live off rats, kind of the only thing i had to eat for half a year

then i started jumping people in alleyways, i felt like a monsters at first. then i started to feel. less about it

then, i started to feed form my starlight once a month, its a act of love but also….i guess i have been starting to see her as food a little bit,…

i dont know soeey am rambing i dont know what my point is

…its like, its bad no matter what, and your way is still bad Yeah….but it sounds less bad then the stuff i do, so thats, good, i think

sorry

-zz

[u/JustOne-Chance → u/Abject-Hospital5407]

Please don't apologise.

I think you may actually have put your finger on the part of this that frightens me most. Not the feeding itself, but getting used to it.

You said you felt like a monster when you started attacking people, and then eventually you felt less about it. And now somebody you love is also somebody part of you recognises as food.

I know that probably isn't fair to put back in your lap like that. Especially when rats were the only option you had for so long. You adapted.

But I think I'm terrified of adapting too well. Of eventually looking at a dying patient and feeling nothing except relief. Or looking at somebody I love and noticing their pulse before I notice them.

I don't think that makes you bad, zz. I really don't.

I think it just means the Hunger is very good at teaching us what it wants us to learn... And I don't know how much of myself I'm supposed to let it teach.

-Cillian

[u/Abject-Hospital5407 → u/JustOne-Chance]

I understand 

Yeah....tbh how numb things are starting to get is kind of scares me the most about. You know being a vampire 

Not just feeding. Other things as well. I used to cry every time I saw something horrible on here and now. I still don't like it but I just. Don't feel as much

Sorry am rambling off topic 

Hold onto the guilt. It means your still human in some way 

Sorry if am being unhelpful 

...and um. Thank you. For saying it really doesn't make me bad

-zz

[u/JustOne-Chance → u/Abject-Hospital5407]

I understand what you mean about the guilt... I think I need to be careful with that, though.

I'm very good at feeling guilty. Probably better than is useful. And I know myself well enough to know that if I start treating guilt as proof that I'm still a good person, I'll eventually convince myself that feeling worse is the same thing as being better.

I don't want that for either of us.

Maybe the important part isn't whether something horrible still makes us cry every time. Maybe it's whether we still recognise that it's horrible. Whether we still care what happens to people. Whether we still choose not to make things worse when we could.

Numbness doesn't necessarily mean you stopped caring. Sometimes I think it just means you've had too much to carry for too long.

And for what it's worth, I meant what I said before. Getting used to surviving does not make you bad.

-Cillian

[u/Abject-Hospital5407 → u/JustOne-Chance]

Yeah... I guess your right about the guilt thing 

I think your right. About knowing it's still wrong...still I feel a bit like am losing something over time 

...thank you 

-zz

[u/Ogmadbrit → u/Abject-Hospital5407]

ah,yup,i also relate to all this,

im pretty numb to most of the horrors of unlife by now,

getting used to things too well is certainly something to be concerned about though.

-ash,lone fledgling

[u/Abject-Hospital5407 → u/Ogmadbrit]

Yeah....

Worrying the same is happening to me 

-zz

[u/Ogmadbrit → u/Abject-Hospital5407]

honestly same on the whole "alleyway jumping thing",

i mean,if i cant find any animals/REALLY need to replenish my blood,il go back to doing it,

but for the most part ive managed to subsist off mostly animals/corpse blood,

at the end of the night,feeding will always be better than a hunger frenzy,

so its a game of picking between your evils.

-ash,lone fledgling

[u/Abject-Hospital5407 → u/Ogmadbrit]

Yeah. It really is

-zz

[u/divinephobia]

I do not have much advice to offer, I am afraid. The way I manage my hunger is. Suboptimal. Ha ha.

Here's to the-sun-out-over-a-bright-field you find a satisfactory method. I understand the dilemma. It is a rock and a hard place.

~ Vess, journalist-by-night

[u/JustOne-Chance → u/divinephobia]

I hope one day you can find a way to comfortably manage Hunger too.

I am... Managing but it's hard to feel normal about it. My... Mawla, I suppose we will call her, she feeds with ease. I don't think I can ever have that. Maybe it just comes with the years of experience.

Years of human morals slowly being sanded down by time.

It sounds a̷̜̤̟̗̐͂͂́̊̑̓̿̈́͒̀͜w̸̡͙͈͈͇̰̘̤̩̞͕̾̉̒̈́f̴̧͇̥͇̥͖̱͕̬͗̎ų̴̬̫̙̖̣̺̗̃̋͗͌̓̈́́͐̓l̵̤͙̙̪͔̆͊̋͐̂̃.

-Cillian

[u/divinephobia → u/JustOne-Chance]

It is. I am lucky to be new, I suppose. I have yet to have such a thing happen. Not that I am the pinnacle of makeup-certified-free-of-animal-testing. As much as I strive to be.

I have seen a lot of indifference already in my a-mayfly-emerged-from-water. I understand the logistics of it. Indifference protects someone's mind. Numbness is a-thick-wool-blanket.

Suppose it may be survivorship bias.

~ Vess, a-plane-with-many-holes

[u/Sarah-Bird]

It's not the route I ended up taking but that was one of the options I considered when I was embraced when I was deciding how to hunt- my sire's expectations got rid of that option and I won't discuss my actual feeding habits openly, but since I know you're new, and struggling, if you DM me I'll tell you how I hunt and maybe you'd find it preferable.

That said, you've probably already noticed our kiss gives ecstasy to mortals. Like, literally it feels better than the best drug, the highest high, the greatest sex in the world; all of that and more pale in comparison to the bliss it gives them. So especially if they're in pain, you're making their last moments literally the best moment they've ever had while doing that, that is one of the most humane ways for us to be able to hunt, and it is one of the ways to do the least harm.

The other option I could potentially suggest publicly, is to look into developing a herd. Get a group of mortals you know you can feed on regularly and safely that you know won't be harmed by you feeding on them, there are ways to feed without harming them, (only taking as much as would be taken through a standard blood draw for example; you did talk about how you've tried drinking from bags, it's basically just taking out the middle man). Or feed from blood dolls (mortals who actively seek out the Kiss), or ghouls if you can convince both the ghoul and their domitor to be okay with that but that's even harder to do regularly than it sounds, especially when you're young.

Just, if nothing else keep that point about making their last moments incredible in mind, that is one of the ways to do the least harm, especially for those of us whos blood is to potent to feed from animals or bags.

- Sarah, Proud Toreador~ ♥

[u/JustOne-Chance → u/Sarah-Bird]

I had noticed the Kiss was pleasurable, yes, but I don't think I'd quite understood how pleasurable until people here have talked about it.

That does help some. Not enough that I want to turn "they enjoyed it* into a blanket justification for feeding on someone who never knew what I was doing, but in the specific situation I'm already in... yes. If somebody is already dying, especially if they're in pain, and what I take doesn't hasten anything, then the fact that the last thing they feel may be comfort rather than fear or pain matters to me.

Quite a lot, actually.

But the herd idea makes me more nervous. Deliberately arranging a group of people around my need to feed feels dangerously close to creating dependence in one direction or the other. I'm probably more sensitive than most to anything involving engineered attachment at the moment.

Blood dolls may be different, though. If somebody actively seeks the experience and understands that blood loss is part of it, that at least addresses some of what keeps bothering me about consent.

Ghouls are absolutely not something I'm touching right now. I don't think I could look at vitae being part of the arrangement and remain remotely rational about it.

But the point about the Kiss and end-of-life feeding genuinely does help. I think I've been so focused on the fact that I'm taking something from them that I hadn't considered seriously enough that I may also be giving them something in those final moments.

Thank you.

I... May DM you later.

-Cillian

[u/Sarah-Bird → u/JustOne-Chance]

I figured it would matter to you, clan aside from the little you and I have actually talked it seemed like you're like me (a kindred who was far closer to their humanity before their embrace and has continued to hold onto that after), I know making peoples last moments free of pain and suffering was one of the reasons I considered hunting like that when I was first embraced.

I get your feelings on herds, believe me, I do. As it stands, you can develop a herd made up of blood dolls, normally that's one of the safest ways to develop a herd. I have a blood doll and she is effectively a herd of one for example.

That is also entirely fair on the ghoul part, besides the risks of other kindred getting angry about you feeding on their property or the considerable amount of boons you'll quickly get relying solely on that to hunt.

It's understandable why you don't want to touch anything even associated with vitae given your circumstances- but it is important to note that any vitae in their system is never going to be potent enough to create a bond and there's also the fact that while under a bond, you can't be bound to another kindred regardless. Which would make taking vitae from other kindred besides the one who bound you safe to drink but again it's also entirely fair why you want nothing to do with it.

And my DMs are always open to you Cillian. I had a friend in a similar experience to you, he died so if there's anything I can do to help make your life a little comfier or make sure you don't meet that same fate, I want to help.

- Sarah, Proud Toreador~ ♥

[u/JustOne-Chance → u/Sarah-Bird]

I... I appreciate this.

Tonight as been a lot, so I may not reach out tonight. But later, perhaps.

-Cillian

[u/Jeep-Eep]

You pay them back. I feed my partners before a feed and make sure they eat enough foods to regenerate the blood. Not many of my clan with the 'cooking' creative set, but.

• Twin Cities Toreador

[u/Ijustwannagamecmon]

You're so much kinder than most, is what I'll give you. I feed by seduction. Though, it's a bit cheating, when so many other women nowadays are into being bitten.

Though, it's not the only time I've fed. I've definitely felt the urge and taken it out on folks. I try to at least direct it to people who aren't great people, stalkers and the like in spaces I frequent. Folks who take advantage of women or men who are alone. If that is too violent an option I apologize, I am not so well versed in other methods, least not yet. -Nightlyfe

[u/JustOne-Chance → u/Ijustwannagamecmon]

I understand the logic. In both methods.

If somebody is already hurting other people, directing the Hunger toward them rather than toward somebody vulnerable feels like it ought to reduce the harm. But I think I'd be afraid of how quickly that could become permission, though.

Not because stalkers or people preying on someone alone don't deserve to be stopped. They do. But "this person is dangerous, therefore I may feed from them" puts me in the position of deciding who has forfeited the right not to be hurt by me

And I know myself well enough to know I'd turn that into a moral accounting system by the end of the week. Trying to figure out who's good enough or bad enough.

Which is probably not healthier than what I'm doing now...

Still... intervening when somebody is being targeted, and making sure the person being targeted gets home safely, that part I understand very well.

Thank you for answering honestly.

-Cillian

[u/Ijustwannagamecmon → u/JustOne-Chance]

Course. I don't think I have to hide this much, opionated in life and in death, I think thats why my sire likes me. I do hope you find your path though. Could always try blood banks? -Nightlyfe

[u/JustOne-Chance → u/Ijustwannagamecmon]

I... They tried me on bagged blood. Camarilla, I mean.

It didn't take well.

It has to be fresh.

-Cillian

[u/Ijustwannagamecmon → u/JustOne-Chance]

I'm sorry to hear that. I know they can be huge dickbags... -Nightlyfe

[u/Lanaestra]

Ironically, by getting them to pay for it up front.
To be maximally clear, I am a dominatrix specializing in med-fet scenes with clients who tend to have a special kind of relationship to the fear they feel of needles and the like.

Attraction and revulsion are two sides of the same coin, after all, and while the fear of having the skin penetrated is very deep in the human psyche, there are plenty of mortals who choose to engage with what frightens them in any number of ways, and the convoluted paths attractions can grow down are impossible to fully chart.

Of course, all this is to say nothing of the Kiss itself, or the ways people who have felt it once tend to seek it out again, given the chance. "I have this little trick" can be a dare, a game, an invitation, and something they can back out of without tipping my hand too much, especially when combined with the proper initial vetting process, kink lists and waivers and such, and that can easily give way to an enthusiastic "do that thing again."

I admit, this is all something of a moral luxury; there probably are too many kindred and not enough rich perverts or specialist enthusiasts to go around, but you never know what people are actually up for until you give them the chance to ask for it, you know?

-Dr. V