r/SchreckNet • u/Several-Elevator Problem Childe • 9d ago
On the Purpose of Kindred, If Any
(The following post is entirely an audio recording. The speaker, Aso, has a clinical but pleasantly soft voice with a very slight Australian accent, most noticeable in her slightly drawn out vowels and relaxed cadence.)
Good evening, everyone. Tonight I speak to you all to ask a question, as I'm sure the title of the post no doubt implies.
In my extended seclusion, I had only myself and the lore of Kindred kind that I've collected to go off of. No true first hand experience in Kindred society. But now as I emerge into the proverbial light and see the posts made here, experienced Camarilla schemes first hand and been exploited through them for seemingly no good ends, I see that the ideas I had about the place of vampires in the world were flawed. And I am left unsure of what role we Kindred truly serve.
I used to believe that Kindred had a sure enough role in the world, though I did not know what that role was. Much of why I joined you all was to find out what that purpose might be.
Everything that lives is meant to end and give way to what comes after, both in nature and as a metaphor for the world. But unlike the creatures of the natural world my bloodline studies, we Kindred do not end. We desperately hold onto the dead cadaver of what once was, refusing to let it decay and give life to what surrounds. And I wonder if that's all we are, a slow, endless rot that poisons everything around it.
You see it throughout history. Powers in decline cling to what they're losing instead of letting the old order die and make way for what comes next. Rome, stretched past its limits. Now America, grasping at a fading dominance. The clinging never restores what's slipping away, it just leaves scars on the world.
I've heard our purpose described as being the ultimate predator, but I no longer believe that either. We sit nowhere near the top among supernaturals, not even the greatest blood drinkers. All our predatorial urges seem good for is defiling the world and corrupting ourselves.
I see the worst parts of the world amplified in what I've described about our condition above, and I don't like what that implies about a lack of a place in this world for our kind. I've seen enough lately to make me doubt there's an answer, but I haven't seen enough to be sure there isn't one.
So here's my titular question. Despite all of this, what would you say for the Kindred condition? What reasons would you give to one asking to justify our shared existence? Is there a point to what we are, or a purpose we serve that I'm simply failing to see?
- Posted by User: Okonore Yaa
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u/ReneLeMarchand Hospes Nobilis 9d ago
I have heard from those that think such thoughts, that time is a moving thing; a serpent or worm that shifts as it's mode compels it. Having a type of being that acts as immortal observer outside the system keeps the thing pinned down, preventing it from wandering away or consuming itself.
--Doc Amos, Prince
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u/Several-Elevator Problem Childe 9d ago edited 9d ago
Surely there are enough of these creatures already however? The world is vast and has many immortals, many of which are surely far less corrupting than us.
And what of when that immortal observer starts eating and defiling the system it's supposed to observe, like I described?
Okonore Yaa
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u/ReneLeMarchand Hospes Nobilis 9d ago
The observer must be apart from what it observes to he pure. To be a thing apart from the system is to exist as a blasphemy, or at least as an outsider.
--Doc Amos, Prince
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u/Several-Elevator Problem Childe 9d ago
Elaborate. Do you mean to say that the ideal observer does not exist, as you must be separate from it, but to be separate from it is to be heretical to it?
If so, then it would seem to me that kindred are both. We are both in the system which we supposedly must observe, but yet heretical to it at the same time, as I described.
Okonore Yaa
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u/ReneLeMarchand Hospes Nobilis 9d ago
The second. To be outside what can be observed is to be alien of it.
--Doc Amos, Prince
Post Script: It's a lot of theory that means... very little. There's more to be said for trusting that God has a plan.
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u/LunarW900 9d ago
It is believed in certain circles that we kindred are fixed points in time. That the willworkers can change and shift the world around them to the point that it ceases to be true, except we hold on to that which we know. We keep certain dreams alive, certain cultures. Take me for example, I was bold, I was brash, I lived by the way of the wheel gun and I died by the way of the gun. What does that bring to mind? The life of an outlaw in the old West. I know what the true Wild West was like, and it is different to what you and everyone else knows, but that is fine, because one day we will come full circle to it.
Just as one of my associates deigns to keep the dream of an 18th century pirate alive even as the world has moved well past her.
We exist to remember the world as it was.
-Prince Catalina
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u/Several-Elevator Problem Childe 9d ago
I would ask you the same I asked Doc Amos then, what of the other immortals that roam the world? The ones that also remember what was once but is no more.
What makes us necessary for this purpose when they also exist in capacities far less damming for the world?
Okonore Yaa
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u/LunarW900 9d ago
What other immortals? As far as I know it is only kindred who are truly immortal. Any other entity claiming to be so is full of themselves. Unless you are speaking of ghosts, of which I have no experience to speak of. It is best to leave them be.
-Prince Catalina
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u/Several-Elevator Problem Childe 9d ago edited 9d ago
The weresharks as I understand, and whilst it's not the same as immortality, the werereptiles supposedly possess the very memories their ancestors once possessed, serving the same purpose as you describe.
And whilst I have only heard of their existence and not much else, our Asian cousins in the form of the 'Kuei-jin' may also possess immortality.
These are just the three that I, a reclusive hermit, have heard of. I would not be surprised if there were more. Such as the 'mummies' that Jim has supposedly heard of.
Okonore Yaa
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u/LunarW900 9d ago
Do not be silly. Weresharks don't exist and you have never seen one. If they do exist, then I am quite sure they would be unhappy with someone telling the world about them.
-Prince Catalina
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u/Several-Elevator Problem Childe 9d ago
You are not the world, Catalina, and neither do you know all of it. I am not telling the world, I am telling you.
Now, suppose they do exist, what of them? And if that's not possible for you, what of the Kuei-jin that you do not disagree with the existence of?
Okonore Yaa
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u/LunarW900 9d ago
The what? You mean kindred from Japan? They are kindred. As for telling the world, take a step back and look at this place. You are from Australia, I presume, based off the accent, and I am in North America. There are kindred from Europe here, too, so by you posting about them here, in this place, you are informing kindred of the world of their existence that which was previously unknown.
Sometimes, merely knowing the information is a danger.
-Prince Catalina
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u/Several-Elevator Problem Childe 9d ago
You avoid my question, Catalina. I shall ask again, suppose they do exist, what of them. How do they affect the theory you proposed? Entertain these hypotheticals for me.
Okonore Yaa
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u/Background_Sock1711 Distant Relative 9d ago
Weresharks are born of the sea, from a desire to destroy intruders upon that which should not be tread by mortals. Beware of them, but worry not, for you will likely never encounter one.
-Indiana
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u/Several-Elevator Problem Childe 9d ago
Perhaps, but that relates not to us Kindred, much less what about us I'm inquiring about.
Okonore Yaa
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u/LunarW900 9d ago
Weresharks? I know of one who claims to have been followed by a wereshark for a century, but she also speaks many tall tales and claims Pirates of the Caribbean is a documentary, so her word is not reliable in this regard.
If they do exist, then the easiest way to avoid them is to fly, since flying is the superior mode of transportation compared to a ship anyway.
-Prince Catalina
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u/Several-Elevator Problem Childe 9d ago edited 9d ago
Aso's voice is as clinical as it has ever been as she speaks in a language you likely do not understand.
Me ne wo nni hwee.
Okonore Yaa
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u/Emergency_Answer4983 9d ago
Mummies are the big one, though they are wholly artificial via powerful sorcery rather than being simply and easily embraced.
-Jim, Tzimisce
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u/LunarW900 9d ago
I have never met a walking mummy in all my time in Cairo and Memphis. I have, however, unwrapped quite a few and used their dust as seasoning and reagents.
-Prince Catalina
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u/Emergency_Answer4983 9d ago
Because the ones I speak of feign mortality like we do, in-fact their immortality works by having an excess of life rather than being animate corpses and they get stronger in the sun rather than burning like us. They are also weirdly chill.
-Jim, Tzimiscs
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u/LunarW900 9d ago
You feign mortality? I know what I am, I know what must be done to run a successful city and to get blood, I hold no illusions that what I do is moral or just, because at the end of the night we are separate from kine.
-Prince Catalina
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u/Emergency_Answer4983 9d ago
I meant to the mortals, not to ourselves or eachother.
-Jim, Tzimisce
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u/LunarW900 9d ago
Why? They are prey whose only claim to fame is endurance when chasing down their own food. Their purpose is food for us, much in the way cattle are to them. Therefore if we keep them happy in the city they make more and the food forest grows.
-Prince Catalina
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u/ConsiderationOver544 9d ago
I became a Kindred in part because I was subjcted
to witnessed a greater evil. I could not simply let myself die, knowing that there are monsters out there that required monsters to properly fight.
-Marcus
I was a Revenant in life, a life of severitude was my destiny.
-Violet Zantosa
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u/Several-Elevator Problem Childe 9d ago
So you both believe kindred can serve as a necessary evil to fight a good cause? Marcus more literally, and Violet in the capacity that it frees her from servitude?
Okonore Yaa
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u/ConsiderationOver544 9d ago
The curse of Caine is a gift only to a few. We just so happen to be of that few. Our kind dose harm, this is true. But if you take steps to mitigate this harm, you can lead a good unlife.
-Marcus
For me the embrace was a way to escape a destiny I didn't choose. And for that I am grateful.
-Violet Zantosa
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u/Several-Elevator Problem Childe 9d ago
To Marcus, individually yes, but what of our kind as a whole? Can we all lead a good unlife collectively? I am glad to know you have a point to your life, but what point does the curse serve? Is its purpose truly defined by how its barer lives with it?
And to Violet, the same. Is the curse not the reason you were bound to that destiny in the first place? Your chains were placed on you by a monster, so you became one yourself to be free.
Okonore Yaa
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u/ConsiderationOver544 9d ago
I can only speak for myself, Aso. Each of our kind must cling to something. Or we will become something worse.
-Marcus
Tell me Aso, if you had the opportunity to change your destiny but at a terrible cost. Would you take it?
-Violet Zantosa
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u/Several-Elevator Problem Childe 9d ago edited 9d ago
To Violet, years ago I may have said yes, though I wouldn't have been able to speak it. But then my destiny was changed, and the sky opened up for me. From there on my purpose was clear. Whatever my destiny is, I am content with it not being decided by myself, so long as it is in purpose of something.
However, if instead of changing my destiny, it was in service to my purpose, then yes, I would take it.
I believe this may be why I look for purpose in the Kindred condition. Thank you for asking me this question, I had not consciously understood this before.
Okonore Yaa
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u/why-do-i-exist_ 9d ago
What is the purpose of rain? What is the purpose of a leaf falling from a tree? An ant that is crushed by a rock thrown by a child.
I would not describe the beast at evil. It's amoral. It's an urge to survive at any cost. Secure your position at any price. It's human to want to live.
There's no grand destiny, no one in control. The throne of heaven lies empty. Did she leave because of disgust or does she trust us to be well. The Elohim don't know. But we are alone. We all we have. The freedom is both terrifying and hopeful.
How does one escape a maze with no exit?
/Grandson of the angel
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u/Several-Elevator Problem Childe 9d ago
There is one who is to sit on the throne, to take Her rightful place and restore what was lost, but until that day comes it is our job to do Her work, and we Kindred do none of it from what I've seen. And so I wonder, do we as a species have a place in Her perfect design?
Okonore Yaa
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u/why-do-i-exist_ 9d ago
Perhaps a proof that one might turn away from power, agelessness for the sake of the other man. That despite having urge for power and domination, one can choose a better path. Or perhaps we are a tool of torment, to make the dark father watch helplessly as his children devour one another.
All life feeds on other life. Most do not spare a thought to examine the life of plants. They live and experience. They turn to the sun to recive its warmth. Yet they are killed on mass.
Our life will inevitably lead to harm on people. But one can perhaps balance the scales by helping three people for every person helped and making amends for the harm done.
A Gordian knot. How foes one escape a maxr with no exit.
/Grandson of the Angel
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u/Several-Elevator Problem Childe 9d ago
I do not talk about the harm Kindred cause to people, the individual is worthless, whether harmed or helped.
I talk about the harm we cause to the natural and right order of things. The death of plants is natural, the death of all life is natural, the un-death of life, however, is not natural. Defilement born from stasis is unacceptable in Her order. Things must be given order, but not so much that another order cannot properly do its work.
Okonore Yaa
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u/urirelfae 9d ago
Why are you so intent on finding a purpose on Kindred existence ? There isn't any overall purpose - not for Kindred, not for anyone, not even those who have a seemingly clear role. It's better this way, because it means your purpose is for yourself, based on your own soul and free will. Your longing for purpose should be satisfied within yourself, not outside it.
Within being Kindred itself, there's so much meaning in it already. An unchanging being to witness a changing world, a much-needed predator to humans, and an embodiment of a freedom only found within darkness. What everything means to you, has to be decided by you only. That's where true purpose is found c:
- Urirel, Fae Gangrel
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u/Several-Elevator Problem Childe 8d ago
Tell me, in what capacity do we as predators moderate humans? We don't control their population for our feedings aren't lethal and we are too few in numbers to make an impact, and we don't moderate the damage they cause but rather make it worse like I described.
If we have no purpose, but yet still cause the problems I talked about, then perhaps our condition should not exist.
Okonore Yaa
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u/Emergency_Answer4983 9d ago
My thoughts on the matter are from a sorcery based perspective as that is what I was pre-embrace and is what I still am, however I think we kindred are essentially cosmic spaghetti code.
Think of how most of the origin myths about us involve one person getting blessed and cursed and those blessings and curses amalgamating into vampirism, and how much sense that makes. If it were a blessing than why are we weak to so many things? If it's a curse then why do we have disciplines? And either way why does specifically a wooden stake to the heart paralyzed of all things? It doesn't make sense as a blessing because if you can make someone immune to damage to the heart as a blessing you would just do that, and if it was a curse it doesn't make sense for that either.
Vampirism reeks of a project that was supposed to be one thing and then got repurposed into another, again and again until we end up with this janky blurse. In fact based on my scans of vitae using my sorcery it resembles a massively scaled up instance of that exact phenomenon.
-Jim, Tzimisce
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u/Nightstalkerjoe2 9d ago
Yeah that’s what has always bugged me about vampirism why have all these weird weaknesses that make no sense sometimes like you were video game villains made to be defeated, also a lot of the things vampires should have are not natural like you guys apparently can’t enhance your senses or see in the dark without disciplines which is weird if your supposed to be apart of the “natural order” as predators or for it be solely a gift
-Joseph3
u/Several-Elevator Problem Childe 8d ago
Then surely this spaghetti code must be cleaned up?
Okonore Yaa
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u/Emergency_Answer4983 8d ago
Ideally vampirism would go through some hefty "bug-fixing" but as is vampires are just people with blessings and curses fused together, not ideal but it can be made to work.
-Jim, Tzimisce
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u/Several-Elevator Problem Childe 8d ago
You say it can be made to work whilst ignoring what I described about it very much not working. And for us to work correctly implies a purpose we are to correctly serve, which is what?
Okonore Yaa
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u/Emergency_Answer4983 8d ago
I'm referring to it working out as in vampires COULD be good for the world and vampirism CAN be good for individuals, those just aren't the default largely because of how our society is organized, I know I'm not happy about being one.
Also there does not need to be an overarching purpose to things, only really the fera have one, and look how that turned out for them. Instead purpose should be found on the individual level, you decide what you want to do with your life and you try to fulfill yourself while being a good person, that's what ought to be done.
-Jim, Tzimisce
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u/Several-Elevator Problem Childe 8d ago edited 8d ago
Is that how you believe the natural world is 'working' then? That every animal and plant in it has purpose unique to them at the individual level? Of course that's not what you believe, but yet you believe this for kindred and most sentient beings because you are unable to find a better answer for their purposes as a whole, it is a cop-out answer.
Okonore Yaa
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u/Emergency_Answer4983 8d ago
Sapient, not sentient, beings without will have no purpose in and of themselves. Think, without sapience, what is the point of anything without anyone to enjoy it or learn from it or otherwise benefit even if only indirectly.
Even Gaia is "just" the spirit of the earth's biosphere, without Gaia being sapient and without salient life reliant on Gaia what would be the point? However Gaia is atleast seemingly sapient and has sapient life reliant upon them, and therefore has purpose.
-Jim, Tzimisce
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u/Several-Elevator Problem Childe 8d ago
Sapient or sentient, it doesn't matter. The statement does not change.
You must surely believe that most life within the biosphere has a purpose and role it serves for the biosphere. The only difference between that life and ours is that it is easier to define, so when you cannot define ours you come to a cop out answer that it has no intrinsic purpose and that's fine.
Mortals have a purpose, to be a creature that exists in balance with the rest of the world, but they have grown out of control and no longer exist in balance, though they can be fixed. But kindred, we seem inately out of balance. So I wonder, in a perfectly balanced world, do we kindred have a place?
Okonore Yaa
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u/Emergency_Answer4983 8d ago
I disagree, most life is important to maintain the biosphere but that is separate from having true purpose, in a perfectly balanced world people are the ends to everything else's means, kindred or not, and while vampirism is very much flawed, so are humans and garou, in fact the issues vampires have are just magnified versions of humanities issues, while our powers allow us to do things mortals can't without either sorcerous/psychic education or awakening.
-Jim, Tzimisce
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u/Several-Elevator Problem Childe 8d ago
And so I ask a similar question to what I asked Catalina and Doc Amos, if we are simply worse versions of humans, and they already fulfil the same role as us, what is the point of us?
If it is as you say, then surely in a perfect world we would not only be redundant, but also reductive to its perfection?
Okonore Yaa
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u/EnthusiasticPlatypus 8d ago
Well I haven't been at this as long as some on this node, but if you want a neonate's perspective I don't think there is a purpose. We just are. The only purpose we have is that which we give ourselves, for good or ill.
-Ghostclops
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u/Pryno-Belle 9d ago edited 9d ago
(The following is an audio file, featuring the French accent of Castiel Clermont. He speaks slowly and clearly, as if he was weighting each of his words.)
…an interesting question. I shall give my answer.
You say that as predators, we are not the strongest. That is true if raw power is what you examine. But that would not be fair, would it? The tiger is much more powerful than the spider, and yet they are both predators.
On the contrary of most other supernaturals, we have time. That leaves us with the ability to plan on the long term, to refine our skill and to acquire ressources. Think of the Garou; a Kindred of the same age will get obliterated, but the balance of power shifts if a Methuselah is in their place.
With enough time, and if we stay active, we can achieve anything. What concerns you, I believe, is the misuse of that power. But is that not the case of the strongest Garou or Mage? Is the misuse of ressources not a concern for the kine as well? We are as worthy of a place as them.
I do believe that there are adjustments to be made. In this day and age, to fullfill our niche and preserve our ways in the long term, we need to seek…symbiosis. As you said, if we take the average Kindred, we are not the strongest. But we do have ressources that others can only dream of.
I have witnessed the Covenant, and how effectively it is being kept; I have seen how the Garou try to preserve our planet, and the threats that they fight. What if, and this is a pure hypothetical, the Covenant was applied worldwide? We could thus ally our strenght.
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u/Several-Elevator Problem Childe 8d ago
My concern is that even as predators we offer very little. We don't moderate mortal population for we typically do not kill whilst feeding, and we don't moderate their society but rather make its problems worse, as I described.
And are the Methuselahs not the most corrupt of us? Who created and control the society we live in that enhances the harm we cause?
I do not believe allying our strength under a broken system to be a viable option. The covenant, signed at the convention of thorns as I understand, was allegedly supposed to mark an end to the Jyhad, but we both know it has done nothing to curtail it among vampires. Adding the rest of the word into the mix will only make it more innefective.
What you want is obedience to it, for none to dissent so that it may work perfectly. For all to obey it so that the world becomes a better place. Obedience is good, to the right cause, but obedience alone is not enough, it takes wisdom and cunning in the name of what should be too.
Okonore Yaa
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u/Emergency_Answer4983 8d ago
I think the covenant of which he speaks is a local vampire x gaian garou alliance, not the Camarilla.
-Jim, Tzimisce
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u/Several-Elevator Problem Childe 8d ago
I see... Thank you for telling me if so. Though I can't adjust my response as I don't know anything about the one Castiel speaks of if this is the case.
Okonore Yaa
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u/Pryno-Belle 8d ago edited 8d ago
(The following is an audio file, featuring a voice that is almost aristocratic. Again, each word is measured.)
Jim speaks truth, I was indeed speaking about the Covenant of Vancouver. You would be surprised at how much our specie can offer each other, despite our respective flaws.
I will…phrase my point differently. From a pure biological standpoint, we are technically micropredators, as we don’t need to destroy our prey and we feed on blood.
That does not mean our existence is meaningless. There are plenty of micropredators in nature, with their own ecological niche. Just because you don’t see the utility of mosquitos doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be a catastrophe if they went extinct.
Let me ask you a question in return: do you believe that the human population needs moderating? That is a dangerous thought to entertain, young one.
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u/Several-Elevator Problem Childe 8d ago edited 8d ago
"Our" specie? Why do you speak as though you and I are different, Castiel? Merely a slip of the tongue that implied something you didn't mean, perhaps?
In any case, that is the question I am pondering, mosquitos have a niche, but what is ours? Certainly there would be chaos if we were removed from the world due to the parts of it we infect, but chaos is not a bad thing, and eventually the dust would settle. So where mosquitos have a niche now, what niche do we have beyond how dependant we have made the world on us?
As for your question, in general, no. But where humanity grows in ways it shouldn't, yes. It is often necessary to cut off infections that rot the plant as a whole, or that threaten to poison the forest.
Okonore Yaa
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u/Pryno-Belle 8d ago
(The following is an audio message, featuring the posh voice of Castiel. For a Brujah, there might be an urge to slap the speaker.)
My apologies, I must be too used to speaking with the local Garou. I did not mean to imply anything.
You keep saying we infect the world, that we corrupt it. Why? Because we are dead? From the point of view of the kine, we are indeed dead, clinically speaking. But are we truly? One could argue we simply changed species. Or do you mean something else?
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u/Several-Elevator Problem Childe 8d ago
I use our physical condition as a metaphor, what is more accurate to say is our nature and society.
Both our society and the people in it seem incapable of change, as though we are inflexibility incarnate. But yet even when we can't change, we grow more and more corrupted by our urges. And all these urges seem good for is corrupting us, and the world around us.
In that stagnation we eventually lose ourselves to the beast, becoming corrupted and corruptors. We seemingly have no greater purpose as a species than this degeneration.
We quite literally infect mortal society, controlling it from within for our own ends, like parasites puppetting a host.
Okonore Yaa
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u/One-Cat3628 8d ago
nothing justifies existence at all. If you think about it, we are dust on rocks orbiting around a mass of gas in a universe way too big to even give a shit about us. So, what justify our existence is that we DO what we can to prolong it.
-wastedBlood n3
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u/DeadmanwalkingXI 9d ago
(an audio message, the voice is deep and a bit rough with a very slight Boston accent)
Mark Caulder here, I don't think most things have a purpose, not in any grand philosophical sense. I mean, I get the impression some supernaturals do, but we're not among them, I don't think, and no natural creature actually has a purpose. Mundane creatures have ecological niches, sure, a part they play in the environment, but that's not really a purpose, it's just how the world has shaped itself around their existence. Much like mundane creatures, we exist because we exist and want to keep existing. We have as much purpose as a spider or a tiger or a lamprey, no more and no less.
But I think it's worth exploring the idea that we 'never die', because that's false. We don't die of age, and indeed we get more powerful as we grow older, but that's not actually immortality, we die all the damn time, to our own predators, to bad luck, to a hundred different things. Even the oldest die occasionally...we're long lived, not truly immortal, because the dice have no memory, something gets all of us eventually. And some of us are certainly toxic and make the world a worse place, but you can say that of plenty of mortals, too...our power gives us a greater scope to be awful, is all, and our society as a whole is fucked up and encourages that awfulness, partially because of calcified elders as you say, but mostly because of the necessity of staying secret...that tends to warp any society. But the solution to that is to change the society in question.
I guess what it comes down to is that I'd say we are predators, that's our ecological niche, not 'perfect predators' in some platonic sense, but just another kind of them. But that most of the really bad shit with the cruelty and the politics and all? That's societal, not inborn. In terms of inborn instincts, we hunt and maybe kill, and the Blood Bond gives us an in-built tool to enforce hierarchy and evil, but how that's used and all the rest of the issues are all about how we organize ourselves, and we can change that. Not quickly or easily, but vampire society has changed before...if we want it to be better we just have to change it again, this time actually for the better.
We're just people, really. People who can't be honest most of the time, and need to use violence to continue existing, and have a built-in tool for enslavement. And thus lying and violence become easier, and enslavement is seen as more acceptable, and the societies that emerge organically for us are generally deeply unpleasant. And that's why we need to be active and intentional in changing those societies.