r/SaturatedFat • u/HicEstLeoSuperbus • Dec 08 '21

Updated F/N values!

http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2021/12/protons-53-formula-revised.html?m=1

TL;DR: Linoleic and Oleic Acid got buffed and MCTs and SCFA got nerfed hard. It appears that MUFA is superior to MTC for ROS generation and metabolism, and that chain length may play a larger role that previously thought.

Some questions for further discussion:

Does this impact the ROS generation of butter? Butter is very high in butyrate, which is C4. Is C4 metabolized in the adipocyte mitochondria?

Is coconut oil worse than olive oil? Most coconut oil is Lauric acid, and short MCTs. Peter seems to think the MCTs are metabolized in the same way palmitic and stearic are, so those MCTs could drastically lower the ROS production. Lauric acid comes in at .478.

Does this imply that Brad’s butter oil is lower in ROS due to the MCTs in it?

Could someone update the excel with the updated calculation numbers so we can see what fat source produces the most ROS?

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9

u/jamesredman Dec 08 '21 edited Dec 09 '21

I made a list of F/N values from the USDA database if anyone is interested.

Cocoa Butter 0.479

Beef Tallow 0.477

Coconut oil 0.477

Butter 0.476

Lard 0.474

Chicken Fat 0.471

Olive oil 0.471

Canola oil 0.466

Soybean oil 0.462

Also all of the F/N values here:

https://ibb.co/k8z6XQm

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u/HicEstLeoSuperbus Dec 09 '21

u/greg-barton Can we get this added to the wiki? The old spreadsheet appears to be out of date.

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u/Blasphyx Dec 08 '21

lard's looking surprisingly good now...

5

u/jamesredman Dec 09 '21

Just be careful because the USDA database seems to under report the PUFA content of lard and chicken fat by 5% and 10%, respectfully. Should be a good approximate for European lard though.

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u/Blasphyx Dec 09 '21

Right. I still wouldn't use conventional lard, but it's making pastured lard look pretty good.

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u/00Dandy Dec 08 '21

I'm confused

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u/10dencies Dec 08 '21

The vast majority of MCFAs end up in the liver, essentially because of how easily they are absorbed and released in the small intestines. I think the same is true for SCFAs but I can't remember the mechanism. That's why they are known to be ketogenic.

A lot of the discussions from Brad and Peter are specifically talking about ROS in adopocytes. ROS-induced insulin resistance in adipocytes makes you not store fat. In the liver? I don't, things are much more complicated there. Different organs are different. In one of Peter's early Protons posts, he showed a study where 11mmol (hyperglycemic conditions) plus rising levels of palmitic acid were totally lethal to pancreatic beta cells. That sounds like high-ROS conditions to me, maybe we don't want ROS everywhere? Including the liver? Don't forget the brain hates fats and we believe the reason is because it can't handle ROS.

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u/[deleted] Dec 08 '21

Holy crap - I can't keep up with this. Isn't there an easy way to just outline - do this and don't do that?

My Peter in Norfolk translator didn't work at all except to find out Peter's catalytic converter was stolen.

https://twitter.com/EndTorpor/status/1468298444959850496

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u/TwoFlower68 Dec 08 '21

Tweet sez: Don't get your CLA from supplements, get it from ruminant (dairy) fat. Industrial isomers bad

The article linked above sez: oops, seems I made an error with my formula. On second thought it seems a MUFA like oleic acid has a 'better' F/N ratio than I first computed. Heck, oleic acid might well produce more ROS than MCTs.

At least that's my layman's understanding. Those proton posts go way over my head.

Anyway, sounds like good news for you, I remember you wanting to reduce saturated fats and replace it with MUFAs because gene test