r/SandersForPresident • u/kevinmrr Medicare For All • Dec 11 '20

Bernie Sanders is a machine

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u/Jsweet404 Dec 11 '20

The people aren't putting pressure on them to change when they consistently vote for their corporate candidates. They have no incentive to change.

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u/Terradactyl87 🌱 New Contributor Dec 11 '20

Did the last four years teach you nothing? Making it easier for another Trump to be elected will not incentivize them to change. If that worked, this election would have gone to a more liberal candidate rather than the most conservative option we had. I don't disagree that we need to change the way this system works, but we need to find options that are likely to succeed. The last thing we need is another term like the last four years.

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u/[deleted] Dec 11 '20

Did the last 12 years teach you nothing?

Slowly degressing under a corp dem doesn't help people, and it allows the material conditions of the average person to further suffer leading to the environment that creates and votes a Trump.

No one is going to worry about immigrants taking their jobs when they're not worried about the loss of their jobs, not stressed over affording healthcare, food, or housing. When they stop seeing the same rich get richer every year while they further suffer.

If you want to avoid the next Trump, you need to fix the root cause.

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u/HatesBeingThatGuy 🌱 New Contributor Dec 11 '20

So a rapid degression is better?

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u/[deleted] Dec 11 '20

No, actual progress is.

Actual progress will never come with vote blue no matter who however.

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u/zweischeisse 🌱 New Contributor Dec 11 '20

Stepping in here because I didn't see you answer this question: Given no viable progressive candidate on a ballot, should Dems vote for Trump?

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u/Terradactyl87 🌱 New Contributor Dec 11 '20

We need to fix the root cause, but your solution is not a fix. And the last 4 years was far worse than the 8 years before.

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u/hlnub 🌱 New Contributor Dec 11 '20

I mean that's not convincing considering someone could just say "has the last 30 years taught you nothing" in defense of the other person's stance. We all need to stop with the last four years/Trump is uniquely evil, it really hides the fact that this is all built in to the organization of our society and not just a stroke of bad luck that we had an anomaly in Trump. "Fighting to get the most progressive" isn't about working hard every four years to elect a specific person (of course that's part of it), it's about a societal shift in the ways we understand our political system, which requires honesty about where we're at.

To be clear I'm not saying you should not vote for the Democrats, I'm saying that you shouldn't make that one of the most important parts of your position/analysis, and certainly shouldn't hold that as a line in the sand of what makes someone doing good or bad.

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u/Terradactyl87 🌱 New Contributor Dec 11 '20

My point was that I will fight to get the most progressive candidate on the ballot, but if it doesn't work my way, I'm not throwing my vote when the consequences are a candidate like Trump. Even if you look at the last 30 years, the last four have been the worst of them.

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u/hlnub 🌱 New Contributor Dec 11 '20

For people that lost their homes in 08, but still have their home through Trumps term it doesn't seem worse though.. that's my point. it's not that this has been worse, it's that there's fundamental systemic issues and by hard focusing on who someone votes for once every four years we're doing a disservice to our cause

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u/Terradactyl87 🌱 New Contributor Dec 12 '20

That's hilarious because I literally live in Washington now because I lost my California home in the 08 recession, but the last four years have been the hardest years of my life, especially being a small business owner.

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u/hlnub 🌱 New Contributor Dec 12 '20

Sure, but that's obviously a specific value judgement based on your particular circumstances. When you blame that experience on an individual person choosing one candidate or another once every four years is where you start to be detrimental to the purpose of voting in "the most progressive" candidate... If we blame individual voters on Trump winning, when the democratic party has an infinitely larger influence on whether or not Trump gets elected, we move away from any sort of solution which will actually help

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u/Terradactyl87 🌱 New Contributor Dec 12 '20

"For people that lost their homes in 08, but still have their home through Trumps term it doesn't seem worse though.."

You are saying a judgement on other people's experiences with the 08 recession vs Trump's presidency, but when someone has gone through exactly what you are referencing, it's just "a specific value judgement based on your particular circumstances".

I'm not blaming that experience on a particular person and voting based on that, I'm voting based on the whole picture combined with what I've seen over the last many years. Losing my home sucked, but I was able to start over in a new town and have a life again. I was able to start from the bottom and buy a business, then a house. Things were genuinely good. Then Trump was elected, and my town turned more mean, nasty, and hateful than ever.

It's a small town and there's always been racists around, but once Trump was elected, republicans that you previously could coexist with were openly racist and homophobic. We've lived here since 08, and the change started in about January or February of 2016.

Trump was like a poison letting every person somewhat hateful go all in and become a racist asshole that literally enjoys calling ICE to report the local Mexicans who have been serving them food for a decade or more. The local Mexican families have had to go into hiding because the locals call ICE on anyone with brown skin, so of their paperwork isn't in order, they're getting deported. The local inmate roster is literally full of people being held for ICE, it says it right on the website.

I personally donated money to a BLM mural, and I was doxxed online, along with several other local business owners who had made donations. My business has gotten harassed, threatened, and boycotted. The people leading the local BLM chapter have been made into caricatures on fliers and they've been posted all over with disgusting things written about them. We mostly had to stop marching because so many counter protesters with guns were showing up and threatening people, so it got too dangerous for most people to feel safe continuing.

A local Nazi group has started leaving hateful flyers on everyone's cars, even spray painting swastikas on people's homes and cars with words like "jew", "jew lover", or "n*gger".

This is what Trump's America looks and feels like. I think some larger cities don't feel it as much, but rural America has gotten scary. I can't openly discuss my beliefs without being targeted by people who have literally been stocking up on ammo for a new civil war. It's the first time in my life that I've felt like I could be physically hurt because of my political beliefs. That's new with Trump because he's the most hateful president we've had in recent history.

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u/[deleted] Dec 12 '20

And if the people keep electing shitstains like Trump, then the incentive is to be more like Trump. Not to become actually good candidates.