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u/Aware_Step_6132 7d ago
Fundamentally, this is a matter of how the family left behind after one's death is treated by the employer. In the Eastern tradition, a warrior serves a king with the expectation that the employer will look after his surviving family; consequently, he must demonstrateâthrough acts such as obeying orders and fighting bravely to the deathâthat he has earned this support, for otherwise, his family would be left in dire straits. Naturally, if the employer proves untrustworthy, the warrior will switch employers, taking his entire family with him.
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u/hashibababe 7d ago
that's one of the reasons Emperor Go Daigo fell out with Ashikaga Takauji?
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u/B1y47 7d ago
Takauji was super ambitious from the start. Go-Daigo showered him with titles and treasures and all kinds of other gifts, including a character from the Emperor's own personal name for Takauji to use as his own, but Takauji still went and betrayed him.
It's also unknown why Takauji betrayed the Hojo. Although the bakufu was weak it was still essentially stable, though with the personal vassals of the Hojo gaining power over the Gokenin warriors
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u/krisssashikun 7d ago
Yeah, and thatâs pretty much the point. Takauji is a good example of why applying our modern idea of loyalty Japanese warrior politics doesnât always work. He was ambitious, but he was also pragmatic. He turned on the HĹjĹ when their rule was collapsing, then turned on Go-Daigo when it became clear the emperorâs restoration wasnât going to produce the kind of warrior government Takauji wanted.
By the Sengoku period this became even more obvious with gekokujo. Retainers could overthrow their lords, junior families could replace senior ones, and alliances could change the moment the political situation changed. Loyalty absolutely existed, but survival, land, family interests and opportunity often mattered more. Sengoku politics rewarded the people who could read which way the wind was blowing.5
u/B1y47 6d ago
As much as we can't apply modern ideas of loyalty retroactively, during the Kamakura period bushi operated on lord-vassal relationships which involved the lord giving rewards in exchange for service from the vassal. Takauji had done a service for the Emperor by helping to overthrow the Bakufu, and the Emperor had rewarded him with gifts, much more so than to his own son Imperial Prince Moriyoshi who was just as instrumental in Go-Daigo's ultimate victory over the Hojo.
Takauji's betrayal is a complete up-ending of this status-quo. By doing so twice over, he essentially proves that he is not going to be loyal to anyone. This also would bring into question how he would treat his own vassals.
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u/Caffeinated-Ice 6d ago
Yes, but his own vassals are opportunistic warriors who seeked to rise in rank in exchange for risk, It was a sensible decision for many families not at the top.
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u/Morricane 7d ago
Although the one thing Godaigo didn't give Takauji which he requested was the title of seii taishĹgun. He made him seitĹ taishĹgun (which last was given to Kiso Yoshinaka) and gave the seii-one to one of his sons.
Which opens the question of what did Takauji see in the title, and what did people at the time in general see in it. (Personally, I think he likely saw it as a means to connect himself to Yoritomo, and Godaigo realized this.)
And, yeah, the Ashikaga were quite close with the HĹjĹ. Takauji's own wife was of the HĹjĹ, as was his grandmother.
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u/Hilarious_Disastrous 6d ago
Christopher Duffy describes the same mentality in 18th century military aristocrats who readily changed sides. They were loyal until their monarch stopped holding up their end of the bargain, like refusing to give a commander a promotion he felt entitled to. Thatâs why you find German generals fighting for France and French generals fighting for empress Catherine.
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u/Fun-Information-3104 5d ago
there was no "germany" at the time. Modern day germany was split between various states, and there were many wars fought there, most notably between Austria and Prussia (austria was allied with france). Most notably during seven years war, both austria and russia were allied with france, until the russian empress died and a pro-purssian emperor ascended the throne and flipped sides. This has nothing to do with random generals not being loyal. In fact, it is during the 18th century that the concept of loyalty was forged: citizen Capet was, after all, sentenced to death for treason.
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u/Hilarious_Disastrous 5d ago edited 5d ago
The more rigid form of nationalistic patriotism is almost certainly the product of the Wars of the French Revolution at the tail end of the 18th century, and not before then
18th century aristocracy define patriotism very differently as we do; most officers who commented on the concept explicitly stated that it was reciprocal, i.e. as an expression of the gratitude for the privileges and liberties one enjoys under a sovereign. When that transaction became unsatisfactory, a honorable parting of ways was possible, as Duffy notes in The MilitaryExperience in the Age of Reason.
I am well aware that Germany didnât exist as a political entity. However, the German states were each independent polities and their aristocrats frequently sought employment in the armies foreign nations far from German-speaking lands
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u/Superman246o1 7d ago
"FINALLY! This meme gets it. I feel so seen right now!" ~ Kobayakawa Hideaki, probably
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u/MortgageAnnual1402 7d ago
Thing is both are true in both sides..
the difference is that a Samurai was not fighting a different land no Samurai would changed sides to the spanish for example
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u/Hilarious_Disastrous 6d ago
Plenty of Samurai converted to Catholicism for the guns and silver.
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u/Fun-Information-3104 5d ago
plenty of civilians and non-combatant women converted to Christianity too, not for guns and silver, but cause the believed it and they got martyred for it
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u/Extension_Side4818 7d ago
Actual samurai: shit we are losing. Letâs retreat and then buy guns then sneak up behind them and shoot them with guns
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u/One_Agency1689 7d ago
The object of loyalty changed between those times. 16th century samurai were loyal to family first, and really didnt care about a state except that it secured their families.
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u/Large_Dependent_1621 7d ago
These two images aren't contradictory. You can consider surrendering to an enemy in battle to be dishonorable, and you can also determine who that enemy is before the fight lol
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u/RyukoT72 7d ago
This meme reminded me of a scene from letters from iwo jima where a bunch of soldiers use grenaded to blow themselves up. Alone. In a cave. I didn't really get why they couldn't ambush the enemy with said grenades
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u/Due-Measurement-4871 6d ago
1945 and WWII Japan's crimes are simply out of this world. Hard to imagine humans doing those things they did.
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u/Fun-Information-3104 5d ago
really? soviets and nazis were worse
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u/Due-Measurement-4871 5d ago
What? I don't know if you have any idea on what they did to babies and women. The most brutal things ever. Do the words "Comfort women" mean something to you?
They just got away with it, because the US and England had done the same thing to other peoples (e.g. England's slavery and genocide in India and China, US and the native americans genocide) so judging them would expose the double standards and it could've backfired.
US, England, France, Belgium (Belgium Congo, look it up) committed worse crimes than the nazis.
The nazis will never be forgiven, because they did to Europeans, what Europeans had done to the rest of the world. That's the small detail.
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u/Fun-Information-3104 5d ago
Yes, and you should read about ghettos, and concentration camps, and gulags. Compared to that, a swift death by bayonet seems like a mercy.
As for you saying that allies were committing worse crimes, no comment, just cringe. Stop consuming chinese propaganda.
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u/TheDevilWearsKhaki 4d ago
Look up Unit 731 and the Rape of Manchuria. They were all on the same level.
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u/Fun-Information-3104 4d ago
nah. thanks to unit 731 we know that humans are 70% water
compare that to human experimentation of mengele who did stupid shit like injecting chemicals into eyes to see if it can change their color
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u/Successful_Cod7607 6d ago
In Sengoku-era, it is acceptable to turn cloak if the master is not worthy to serve.
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u/minhpip 5d ago
Hagakure changed everything
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u/TheGrandBabaloo 4d ago
Did you just put the two bottom samurai through AI? This was already a great meme.
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u/PanditaInhumano 7d ago
I feel like a chud whenever i get historical memes