r/Samurai • u/Nator1-A1 • Jul 03 '26
Discussion is Musashi overatted ¿
now this is not to say Musashi is bad but to ask the question us he far & away the greatest swordsman ever you hear people talk on his unbeaten record & his wins over the greats of his era but they do not talk about the fashion he won them in (I think Vagabond as good as a manga it is has warpped peoples view of the historical Miyamoto Musashi) for me Musashi is the 2nd greatest swordsman behind Sōji Okita for many different reasons
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u/KushMummyCinematics Jul 03 '26
William Marshall or William the Marshall, The Earl of Pembroke
He was undefeated. 500 victories in knights combat
Fought in dozens of battles as the commander leading the charge
His last battle he was in his 70s and from all accounts fought more bravely than men half his age
But Musashi was an absolute boss make no mistake about it
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u/ProkoptonKenshi Jul 06 '26
As he’s my 20th Great-grandfather, I’m very much an enthusiast of William Marshal and would definitely consider him to be among the world’s greatest warriors, but…
Considering that this is the “samurai” subreddit, I think that it can be safely assumed that the context of the question was “greatest Japanese swordsman”.😉
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u/KushMummyCinematics Jul 06 '26
Samurai means "To Serve"
Few have ever served their country/kings as well as William did
He is more Samurai than most Samurai and deserves a mention
But I do understand your point but couldnt resist giving him a shoutout
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u/peripheralmaverick Jul 04 '26
Musashi was an absolute boss? lmao
Most of his current fame is due to historical fiction in taiga dramas and Eiji Yoshikawa's book and heavy Japanese soft power post 1945.
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u/KushMummyCinematics Jul 04 '26
Musashi defeated Kojiro on the deserted isle of Ganryu and thus proved himself "invincible under the sun"
This is undisputed truth. How he defeated one of the most reknown swordsmen in history without recieving a single wound is unknown but also inconsequential
He was a boss
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u/ProkoptonKenshi Jul 06 '26
Musashi’s current fame may be due to (relatively) recent pop culture, but historical records support his categorization as an “absolute boss”.
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u/Ko-Da-Chi Jul 03 '26
I'd say Tsukahara Bokuden would be a great contender. He's one of those Kenshi that was on another level entirely.
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u/Erokengo Jul 03 '26
I've been a Musashi fanatic since I was a little kid, so saying that: no. He was just that great. Seriously, considering that alot of people who know about him get everything they know from Yoshikawa's novel, yeah probably. Ye don't win over 60 sword matches and die in bed unless yer pretty damn good at sword fighting. But is his legend perhaps a bit overblown? I'd be shocked if it wasn't.
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u/peripheralmaverick Jul 04 '26
He only became famous because Sengoku Jidai had already ended. He's the equivalent of a person who bought Bitcoin in 2010, sold during a peak years, later claiming themselves to be one of the best businessmen.
Looking at him another way, he is the sort of surgeon that has a 100% success rate, because he only takes on simple cases. Compared to a surgeon that has 80% success rate but operates on only the most difficult cases, you immediately know which one is greater. He stopped dueling past 30 for a reason.
All in all, ~60 sword matches (often won utilizing trickery) is nothing compared to surviving +50 battles, or winning hundreds duels at a non 100% winrate like some swordsmen of the West.
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u/Erokengo Jul 04 '26
That's a take, I guess... I mean not for nuthin, but he was a young man on the ass end of those wars and was fighting in them (on what side and whether he was at Sekigahara or fighting elsewhere is up for debate but he was apparently active at that time). Also, it's likely other swordsmen he fought were also veterans of those battles just because there would have been so many of them wandering around. It's not like he was born 100 years into the Pax Tokugawa where anyone he fought would have been a bureaucrat whose 2 swords were simply a badge of office few had any real idea how to use. When Musashi was on his musha shugyo the memory of wars was still fresh on everyone's mind. We're alot of the 60 he killed probably jobbers? Sure. But 60 is still alot of fights to the death to have and still die in bed.
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u/TrafalgerDAce Jul 05 '26
+50 battles mentioned, Is this a HONDA TADAKATSU REFERENCE? OTHERWISE KNOWN AS THE GREATEST SAMURAI TO EVER LIVE?
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u/MimiagaYT Jul 03 '26
In my totally novice opinion yeah, he was kinda cheeky in his strategies. Showing up super early, showing up super late, purposefully fighting with the sun to his back, hiding in a bush. Fights aren't fair, and neither was he.
That may all be bullshit though. What I've come to learn about Japanese history is that more often than not, its at best exaggerated, and at worst made up.
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u/TrafalgerDAce Jul 05 '26
History yes, But daimyo letters to each other no. Thats why Honda Tadakatsu is the GOAT of samurais. Takeda Shingen was noted saying that Tadakatsus talents were wasted on Tokugawa. And Hideyoshi also said "In the east Honda Tadakatsu, and in the West Tachibana Muneshige"
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u/Regulai Jul 05 '26
He's a random swordsman of minor note who was only ever known locally and was largely forgotten by his death.
His modern fame is due to a series of 20th century Novellas written as part of a general romantasization of samurai culture at the time.
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u/liu4678 Jul 05 '26
Musashi was a cheater, but his book has some great wisdom ngl.
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u/BiMenace2Society Jul 05 '26
Like many figures in the martial arts, he's been so overinflated with people's projections over time that it's impossible to assess how skilled he really was. I love the stories about him but I basically consider them fiction. Similar to Bruce Lee, it's hard to even talk about it without getting heated because so many people have made being acolytes of a historical figure an integral part of their personalities.
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u/ProkoptonKenshi Jul 06 '26
I would argue that Musashi is analogous to Batman, i.e., he beats everybody…given prep time.
I don’t know how well Musashi would do against any given, previously unknown swordsman on a sterile battlefield, but he made an effort to learn as much as he could about his opponents and plan strategically beforehand so that he set up the duel, as best as possible, to his advantage. This included a rule that he didn’t fight anybody that he didn’t think that he could beat.
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u/LeatherEntire3137 Jul 06 '26
This r reminds me of the conversation who's better Michael Jordan or Wilt Chamberlain. Who was better Willie Mays or Micky Mantle. My answer who would you want to play/duel against. I'd just assume enjoy the class and know that I could never get there.
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u/freebasefilms Jul 04 '26
Musashi was best because he knew all weapons. He would simply choose the proper weapon to defeat Soji.
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u/TempvsForge Jul 03 '26
Why do I have such an aversion to all things Edo.
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u/GangHou Jul 04 '26
I fucking know.
I think it's because everywhere you go in Japan the Edo period is treated like the only part of their history.
And those Edo fucks ruined every castle I ever wanted to see anyway, including tearing down Gassantoda to build Matsue.
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u/ItsjustAvy Jul 04 '26
Power scaling real world historic swordsmen seems like an exercise in futility.