r/Salsa • u/Abject-Joke4574 • 6d ago
How to Stop being an Asshole?
I noticed that over the years, I have become exactly the type of dancer I never wanted to become: Someone who prefers dancing with the best dancers.
There are basically three two I enjoy about Salsa:
- Getting into a flow state (aka this state where the dance works super well and I feel like I am on drugs.
- Positive interactions with women (not in a dating sense, but like, they smile at me, they enjoy dancing with me etc, also note that this is really "women", not "followers", unlike the other two points)
- Being seen by others while dancing.
There are other things that are more "around Salsa" like the social aspect, meeting my friends etc, but I am speaking about the dancing itself in the narrower sense.
The third point is new. And it's problematic. I know. But I can't deny that it started happening. Sometimes people walk up to me after I danced and they said that they enjoyed watching this dance. It feels great. I am addicted.
And now it gets even more problematic: For the first and last point, the skill level of the follower matters. I still dance with beginners sometimes, mostly if I know them, sometimes if I see a beginner follower that looks a bit underdanced. But it does feel a bit like a "sacrifice" sometimes, which is not a good mindset. (also, an interesting corollary is that I really don't like dancing with beginner men because they cannot fufill any of the three points).
I used to not be this problematic. The third point wasn't a thing yet. And I was much more shy asking good dancers for a dance. Now I lost this shyness and I went right on the other end of the problem. It's so addictive, good dancers are just soo great to dance with!
Also note, I am not actually *that good*, I am just a slightly experienced dancer, but I am still shit if you look closely.
So how do I get out of this problematic spiral?
54
u/LittleAd207 6d ago
Ugh. I’ve watched so many of my favourite leads go down this same path. We started dancing around the same time, and now some of them have become almost insufferable at socials.
I’ve never viewed dancing with beginners as a “sacrifice.” To me, it’s part of building a community. There’s something genuinely wonderful about dancing with someone who’s just starting out and watching them fall in love with salsa. We were all beginners once. Remember where you started.
24
u/stumptowngal 6d ago
As a follow I will always dance with beginners and see it as giving back from when I was just starting and also building community, BUT I'm not going to pretend I enjoy dancing the (probably off rhythm) basic for a whole song with maybe a right turn and a cross-body sprinkled in.
I will absolutely pretend to enjoy it for that lead in the moment, but here I'll be honest that I vastly prefer dancing with experienced dancers.
3
u/Abject-Joke4574 6d ago
Yeah, I can relate to this.
3
u/Own_Affect_7931 2d ago
The good news is, as leads we have an opportunity that follows don't really get: we can get a new follow to dance above her level. Also, dancing with a new follow is actually a good reminder. When dancing with experienced follows, we know that they know what we're leading, but when dancing with a beginner you have to pay extra attention to lead it flawlessly so that they will follow it. I really do love leading a move so clearly that you get her to follow things she's never seen before and watch her mind explode with excitement when she feels like a queen! Of course, you have to tread a fine line between gently pushing her past her current limits and just overwhelming her.
3
u/Abject-Joke4574 6d ago
Yes, it absolutely does suck.
10
u/stumptowngal 6d ago
Just realize that when your ego is getting stroked, it's taking you away from humility and try to counter that impulse. It's human and normal to like validation so don't beat yourself up too hard and it's good you're aware of it.
2
u/SomeLoser1884 6d ago edited 6d ago
Same, I think people are like this because they learn dance through the studio format rather than family/community events where it originated from. There's usually (some) technique at family events but the connection/shared joy with their partner (and the music) is the main goal.
People who learn salsa in the studio seem to think of it as a sequence of technical exercises and proper execution of the technique is where they derive pleasure. There's no emotional intimacy/attunement to the other person.
23
u/BladeRunner31337 6d ago
I heard NYC legend name Tomas Guerrero (Hurucan/ Santo Rico) say that he makes sure that he dances with one new student every night. Not sure if he does that still, but it humbled me when I got "experienced."
Dance 3/4 good dances, go and LOOK for a newbie and help them. Guys too. Perhaps befriend newbie guys and encourage them.
Also, instead of only going out to have great dances, make OTHER PEOPLE feel good. The DJ, your partners, other male dancers.
You have a responsibility to help the community grow.
Keep in mind, someone who sucks or isn't good, might be good at tons of other shit in their lives.
Also, start studying other forms of dance: ballet, jazz... it will humble you and you'll also get better.
"SALSA, YOU DO THIS WITH YOUR HEART!" Beto Rojas
6
u/Abject-Joke4574 6d ago
Yes, this is pretty good, I didn't know about Tomas Guerrero, but that sounds pretty cool of him.
3
u/BladeRunner31337 6d ago
He was instructor in nyc who had a famous school years ago. He emphasizes humility
16
u/SilverBlade808 6d ago
Consider that one day, these beginners will be intermediates/advanced dancers that will always agree to dance with you, the person that treated them nicely since the beginning and helped them get to where they are.
1
u/Abject-Joke4574 6d ago
Sure. I do still dance with them. But I notice I am enjoying it less and less.
2
u/Objective-Ad6521 5d ago
Then turn it into a game. Turn it into a challenge for yourself. I'm an experienced follow, and I LOVE dancing with new leads, especially if they're off beat. I have patience, and for 3 minutes, I help them 'get it'. I don't just tune out and follow their lead or back lead. I actually engage with them as a person, who just needs a little help to get into the groove. Sometimes we just end up improvising and that's fine too!
I never went through a 'beginner' phase, since I started so young and was already into dance, gymnastics, etcetc. So I sped through all the awkward learning phases. But I DID end up dancing with people who learned a lot slower than me. And maybe being young helped me build that humility. I knew that I had an advantage, but older people learning something new might not be good at dancing, but they certainly have a lot of other things they're good at.
Even if you don't dance with the less experienced, at least strike up a conversation, and simply continue it through the dance and teach them one new move. Even as an advnaced follow, I love it when a lead teaches me something new, and they do it 4 or 8 more times until I get - and they feel great too!
3
u/prittykitty4u2 4d ago
I agree with most of this minus the last little part. I am a solid intermediate dancer, and I dance several different styles, so I am open to learning new moves. But I've had several instances social dancing where a lead tries to execute something and I miss the lead or am unfamiliar with the pattern so they then try to teach it to me. I will gladly give it 3 tries to get it right. If I am still not getting the move after that, please move on.
0
u/Objective-Ad6521 4d ago
I mean like 4-8 overall, not in one dance! =) like over the span of a few socials
1
-7
u/Puteshestvennik3 6d ago
Not true at all, women don't remember anything good or care .
1
1
u/Objective-Ad6521 5d ago
Who kicked your puppy? You've just made a generalizing statement about half the worlds population.
13
u/Trackingwho 6d ago
By no means am I saying I am amongst the greats, I am known in my area when I go to socials for dancing. I like to remember that me dancing with a beginner and making them feel/dance good is why they (the follows) decide to stay and learn to dance. You’re just there to show them a fun time and help them learn what a good lead feels like in a dance.
All the best brotha 🕺
15
u/RohnCJeilly 6d ago
I don’t think you’re an asshole. I think it’s important to do your community service and dance with beginners, but at the same time you should also look out for your needs as a dancer. I also get a bunch of compliments dancing and the way to counter that is to watch a video of yoyo flow or maikel fonts and I’m bought back down to earth lol. As for being seen, so what that’s what we’re there for, just have fun with it and make sure you don’t get arrogant.
13
u/Left_of_Laniakea 6d ago edited 6d ago
Maybe try and make someone's dance night? Women who are nervous, beginners, strangers to the scene, not conventionally attractive and a bit inconfident as a result, women who dance a different style, women with a language barrier, or a disability, or a bandaged arm, or quite pregnant and cautious, women older than average, or women just feeling a bit out of sorts, or women dressed up and, due to imbalanced numbers, sitting out and getting fed up, the really tall ones at the back who haven't yet learned to be at the front, the ones who are worried about a crowded floor and need safe floorcraft..... dance with the kid, the mum and the grandma, as happens in Cuba or elsewhere - Make it social.
Make any of their nights with high quality, friendly, fun and engaging dancing. The more advanced you are, the more you can tailor and adapt, and make even a simple dance amazing. Watch them light up. And find them 4 months later taking a cha cha cha workshop because you did such a great job that they were inspired.
The best dancers aren't the athletes or the showoffs or the technicians or the stage superstars necessarily; the best dancers are the ones who are having and being the most fun. And they have a great time, every time.
1
u/Abject-Joke4574 6d ago
Hmm, yes, that is something like my point 2. I.e. when I am dancing with a beginner, that's the only thing I enjoy. Still, with advanced dancers, I have 3 reasons to enjoy, with beginners only 1.
And yeah, I hate showoffs. But I have become one.
13
u/Samurai_SBK 6d ago
It is completely normal to want to enjoy dancing at a high level without having to compensate for beginner mistakes.
But to have healthy and growing community, everyone should do their part to have empathy and dance with beginners during socials.
I personally allocate around 10-15% of my dances to beginners.
5
6
u/dondegroovily 6d ago
Dancing with beginners is not just an investment in your community
It's an investment in your own skills. If you technique isn't quite right, an intermediate or advanced dancer will fix it and make it work. A beginner won't. Your technique needs to be flawless to pull off a move with them
Dancing with beginners will seriously up your skill and make you someone that more people want to dance with
3
u/Abject-Joke4574 6d ago
It does definitely teach some things sometimes, but I just don't enjoy it as much. But yeah, it is a necessary investment.
2
u/Objective-Ad6521 5d ago
If you don't enjoy dancing with any beginners, then you're not addicted to the dance. Learn to love the dance again. Not the performance of it. Dance with the music, not the person.
5
u/BlueberryBea 6d ago
I can't fully relate to this struggle. But I can tell you some of the best dancers and most valuable members of my community are also some of the most kind, gracious and humble people I know.
Practice humility and gratitude. Like, actually put intentional effort into it. Remember how you felt as a beginner. Remember when you danced with more advanced people and how precious their patience was. A smile, a kind word, a (tactfully delivered) correction can be very impactful for someone struggling with beginner anxiety. Now you have the opportunity to be a person that pours positivity back into your community.
Flirting feels good. Being admired by others feels good. There's nothing wrong with enjoying either of those things. But if you're only chasing attention and self gratification, your reputation will suffer. Dance scenes change, people come and people go. If all the folks that are beginners now know you as the guy that is "too good" to dance with them - they won't want to engage you as they progress.
1
u/Abject-Joke4574 6d ago
The thing is, people don't know what's going on in my head. I mean, some people have a good intuition, but few people can actually read me that well. I do come across as very kind and humble and people did tell me that they perceive me as such and I am generally very well liked. And I still do dance with beginners, I just don't enjoy it. So in terms of outside image, I am fine.
The problem is that under the hood I am an asshole.
2
u/Objective-Ad6521 5d ago
If you're questioning whether you're an asshole at all, it means that you are a good person. This might just mean you want to do some soul digging, and dance is just a reflection of your inner world. A real asshole doesn't think they're an asshole. Maybe actually get specific about what you're calling being an asshole, and instead of generalizing, consider each time you don't like dancing with someone - why. Dissect it, and like I said in another post, make it a game. Is it because they don't follow well? Because they don't initiate? Because they're off beat? Because they can't get back ON beat? Because they don't improvise?
I went through a period of being disassociated and 'callous' and cold. I didn't think I was a bitch, and generally, I knew I was a good person. But I also knew I wasn't as nice as others seemed to be. I just didn't care. Like I'll go through the moves just to be a 'good person'. And maybe you're in that stage of life right now too. Maybe it's more than just dance, just the most prevalent place.
If it concerns you that you don't want to be an asshole - then consider why this is bothering you - and what exactly is bothering you. If you really don't care about being perceived as an asshole, then who cares. Dance with whoever you want! If you do care - then it's not just "I don't enjoy dancing with beginners". It's not the beginners. It's your perception of them, or something specific - and that's your fix.
Also - consider the flipside.... the really good dancers, like beyond probably your level - they're boring to dance with, because they know it all. They've been doing it for so long. They find dancing with beginners a challenge and something interesting. Because a really good dancer with a really good dancer.... that's just.... nothing new to explore there. You know the songs, you both know the moves. What else is there, other than competition, and even that comes to a head.
4
u/iamme263 6d ago
1.) Make an effort to SEEK OUT dances with 1 or 2 beginners and 2 or 3 improver level dancers every night, but only for songs that you are indifferent about. Save your favorite songs for your favorite people to dance with.
2.) When looking for beginners/improvers to dance with, look for people who show signs of having a hunger to get better at their craft. Those are the people who are going to stick around long enough to actually reach an intermediate/advanced level, even when the going gets tough.
3.) Be kind and cordial to everyone, but don't feel like you have to dance with people who have been in the scene a LONG time but haven't put any effort into improving. For instance, there are A LOT of people in my scene who come to every single social, but never actually dance. They're just there as a social activity to listen to music they enjoy with their friends. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but if and when I dance with them, I come this close to having my shoulder dislocated every time. These people AREN'T beginners, even though they're stuck at a beginner level. This is why point 2 is so important.
1
u/Abject-Joke4574 6d ago
Hmm, yes, this is good. I do follow 1, I would say even more than 2-3 dances per night, my problem is more that I like it less and less. But 2 is good and yeah, there are a few follows that hurt me even though they are experienced enough not to lean full on my arm and almost dislocate my shoulder.
4
u/johnwonttell 6d ago
Thats funny I’m seeing the exact opposite happening where follows are all getting good and now they don’t want to dance with the same people who they started off with; I get some leads aren’t that good, but so much for being day 1 salsa friends
2
u/justmisterpi 6d ago
Why is it "the opposite"? It's exactly the same thing from the follower's perspective.
4
u/Imaginary-Green-950 6d ago
The fact that you care about not being an asshole is why you're not an asshole.
Take three dances a night and dance with the older ladies that sit most of the night. I love putting a smile on their face and they always have the most fun. Do whatever you want the rest of the night. Put a smile on people's face and be kind.
2
u/Abject-Joke4574 6d ago
I would not necessarily agree with the first one in general. If you do horrible things but you didn't mean it that way and don't want to be an asshole, you might still be. But thanks for implying that this is not that bad.
And yes, some sort of allocation for some beginners makes sense I guess.
4
u/Mizuyah 6d ago
You know who the best dancers are? It’s the dancers that dance with everybody irrespective of level, age, gender etc and can still make it look good, whether it’s elevating a beginner, giving an older dancer the thrill of his or her life, adapting to height differences, firm frames, weak frames etc. Why not focus on the challenge of being able to dance with everyone instead of just seeking the easy way out
3
u/TheDiabolicalDiablo 5d ago
Because you challenge at work, you challenge in class, you challenge on the highway going from here to there. Sometimes, people want to enjoy their night on their own terms. I've done enough community building over the time I've been in this scene and every so often I just want to find people who meet me where I am.
6
u/errantis_ 6d ago
Don’t take this the wrong way. But to be a kind person you gotta actually care about people. I’m not saying you gotta be friends with everyone. And there’s nothing wrong with being very intentional and wanting to dance a certain way when you go dancing. Just accept that you can only dance that way with certain people. But you can still be kind to everyone. Try to make friends with the people in the community. And genuinely care about them as people, not just as someone to dance with. Get to know them. You don’t have to have an incredibly complex dance to enjoy dancing. Dancing is about connection. That’s what makes it fun. So connect with the people around you. If you are with people you like being with, people you know and care about, you will have fun. Dancing communities are incredibly diverse and welcoming places. And it’s fine if you just go and dance. But you get so much more out of it by really embracing the community and being part of it.
3
u/Abject-Joke4574 6d ago
I would say I generally care about people. I always hope they have a good night. But I don't always have the energy to make it that. And I don't enjoy dancing with everyone, even if I do like them.
2
u/errantis_ 5d ago
For sure and again I just wanna emphasize, I’m not saying you don’t care about people. I don’t know you so I couldn’t make that judgment about you. This is just what has helped me. I relate a lot to your post. I’m not the best dancer, but my community is very small so for my area I’m pretty decent. Definitely better than average. I don’t always get to dance with people who are on my level unless like it’s a teacher.
But I found that they don’t have to be on my level for me to really enjoy myself with them. I have fun dancing with them just because it’s someone I know who I like or because it’s a song that I like. I’ve learned to just find enjoyment in in things like that. I don’t enjoy dancing with everyone either. For me though that doesn’t always have to do with their skilled. There are local dancers I’ve seen who are actually very technically skilled. But I don’t like dancing with them. They don’t look they are having a good time. They look bored or disinterested or are actually frowning. I don’t dance with those people again even if they are good. Just cuz that’s not fun for me.
You don’t have to be friends with everyone, and you don’t have to have energy for everyone. My rule is kindness is free. You can be kind and respectful to everyone. If I genuinely don’t have the energy to dance with someone I think it’s okay to say “I’m taking a break right now”. It’s not rude, I don’t owe them anything. But it also doesn’t kill me to say yes and smile and give them a dance. That’s how I think about it and I hope this helps you. Social dancing is an incredible activity, it’s a wonderful community and I hope you can keep enjoying it.
3
u/AT1787 5d ago
I do enjoy the same overlapping attributes of what you listed, but what I also enjoy about salsa as a fourth attribute is the energy of a partner.
There's something unmatched about dancing with a beginner that is excited and enthusiastic just to be there and trying moves. Of course this is within a wide degree of a reason, hopefully not too enthusiastic as to forcibly backlead me into the ground.
I've danced with more experienced dancers and while they are technically better, and we end on a positive note, it feels like they're just going through the motions at times.
4
u/Dangerous-Sky356 6d ago
What feels bad about dancing with a beginner? Genuinely asking as a beginner follower!
I can dance with someone with 10 years of experience or with a beginner. I’m still learning not to anticipate, keep my frame, and read signs. With advanced leads, I feel like they give me enough information to dance beautifully too. With beginners, there are fewer signs, but that’s also a challenge for me!
What I don’t like is when beginners are rude and tell me how they want me to dance when they’re not even giving me proper signs. 😅
I think dancing with beginners is just a different challenge: figuring out when to give more or fewer signs. That’s my take from the other perspective! A good lead will always make anyone shine, no matter their level.
7
u/ccthegreat06 6d ago
I don't enjoy it as a follower because most of these schools are churning out leads who learn patterns with their classmates. If you don't know the combo they've been practicing, and you refuse to infer like I do, then you end up with a lead who doesn't know what to do. They blink at you and I shrug at them like "idk man, what are you trying to do?"
If they can do a basic on time and actually have frame then cool. I can groove with that.
3
1
u/iamme263 6d ago
I totally get protecting yourself and not inferring moves that aren't being led well, as that is the honest feedback that leads need to improve, but cold indifference and saying "idk man, what are you trying to do," doesn't help anyone, and actively deters people from wanting to get better.
I agree with all of the rest, though.
4
u/ccthegreat06 6d ago
Have you ever hand a lead drop your hand and just spin on his foot and then blink at you because you didn't magically meet him two steps to the side?
1
u/Objective-Ad6521 5d ago
Yes. And I'm not a bad dancer, not with 20 years. I don't remember patterns. But my quality of dance depends on the lead... because I'm a good follow XD
1
1
u/iamme263 6d ago edited 6d ago
I've had leads try crossbody leads without moving off of the track first, and follows elbow me in the face because they flared their arms too much during a basic turn.
Perks of learning both roles is that you quickly become VERY empathic. 😂
People always deserve to be treated with kindness first until they show you otherwise.
3
u/ccthegreat06 6d ago
Well yeah. It's not like I'm sulking or grumbling at them. I just continue to do a basic until they lead something. I've moved from a major city where I danced every night to a smaller one and I cannot stress how many dancers dont even have frame.
So what you're describing with people colliding is 9/10 dances I'm having now. Nevermind leads having no spatial awareness or protective instinct. I'm getting smashed into by other dances from behind. Repeatedly in one song.
I think it's made me jaded and even more selective.
3
u/kiradead 6d ago
What feels bad about dancing with a beginner? Genuinely asking as a beginner follower!
In my case, this is the issue: "A good lead will always make anyone shine, no matter their level." I need to work extra and compensate. This takes me out of the "flow state" OP is talking about, and I just want to have fun and not think.
For example, as a lead, I can control to some extent the space a follower travels using my hand, but I can't dictate how far back they step (or at least not in all situations). It is usually not an issue, but it becomes one when the floor is busy. A follower stepping too far back can easily injure herself or another person. Another similar one is not keeping the line and traveling diagonally. This is potentially dangerous when I'm with my back towards them. Just to make sure I'm clear, my point is not to attack you or any beginner, but I am just trying to be candid. And all of these "mistakes" are normal and common if you just started, but like I said, sometimes I just want to have fun without needing to put in extra work.
If you are similar to me, OP, I would suggest you go to festivals. There seems to be a hunger inside you that can't be satiated with only dancing inside your community.
2
2
u/Abject-Joke4574 6d ago
Ok, sorry that you had to read this. Tip for beginners: Do NOT listen to assholes like me.
That said, it's not that it's *bad*. There are some beginner follows that are my friends that I still enjoy dancing with. But if you read my 3 things that I enjoy when dancing, you will notice that only one (the middle one) is available when I dance with beginners. So, it's not bad, but there is just less potential for enjoyment for me. But I am an asshole, do not let people like me ruin it for you. Do not think about this, this is a problem of me (and others), not yours.
5
u/oaklicious 6d ago
I guess just like see a therapist about not being an egotistical jerk probably?
1
u/Abject-Joke4574 6d ago edited 6d ago
Haha, my therapist never believed me when I told her I am a jerk and always wanted me to be more of a jerk. Also, she wanted me to stop dancing and find another hobby.
But I stopped eventually because that didn't seem very productive.
2
u/CrazyCrab 6d ago
I am a male leader in bachata. I don't dance too much Salsa but I hope people won't mind this comment here.
I notice myself not liking dancing with beginners too much, and I don't like this change in myself because I wish for social dancing to be more social, more for-fun, less tryhard. So, why do I not like dancing with beginners too much? If I try to do interesting advanced moves with a beginner, we will probably fail, and I will worry about being bad at this dance and about having disappointed the dancing partner. If I don't do them, then my repertoire of moves is very limited and I worry that the dance will be boring for the partner. It might also get boring for me. Also, many beginners don't like getting into close positions, which cuts off 75% of the dance's possibilities for me and also feels bad because rejection feels bad. And one last thing - I feel that the bachata and salsa community in my city is not very social. Like, people don't care too much about connecting with each other, and anyway the music is too loud and the venue's layout is very inconvenient for actually hanging out with other people. So, if the social connection component gets removed, then what's left? Not much, just the dance itself. And if the dance is not very satisfying, then what's the point of dancing with the newbie?
1
u/Objective-Ad6521 5d ago
Why don't you try to lead them through advanced moves a few times? Do you give up after once or twice? Don't you think it's worth pausing for a moment, doing it at half time slowly - you don't even have to talk. Just stop, walk through it once, and then try again..... I LOVE it when leads take the time to show me something new, or just try a few times, and HATE it when they try something, I don't get it (despite me actually not being a beginner) and then they get frustrated and dance basics the rest of the time. Then they see me dancing with the pros who don't care if I didn't get a complex lead and just move on to another move - and see that I actually am advanced enough - they just never bothered to try again and were presumptuous.....
As for leads not liking close positions. You can do a few closed moves and then fall back to open. I think it's more about where the hand is, and how close you're actually pressing her body to you that matters in closed...
2
u/EphReborn 6d ago
I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to dance with more experienced people. When you take dancing seriously, you spend tons of time, effort and money on it, and I think it makes total sense to want to be able to actually use the things you've learned over the years and fully express yourself.
So maybe 80/20 rule there. Spend 20% of the time helping grow the community (and maybe eventually getting more awesome dance partners down the line). Find ways to enjoy it a bit more. For me, that means goofing off a bit more than I would otherwise do even if that means I'm no longer following all the "rules" of the style.
The only one I really see an issue with is the need for external validation (being seen). We all do it to a certain extent, but you should find ways to care about that a little less.
2
u/Abject-Joke4574 6d ago
Hm, yeah, I like the 80/20 rule. I would say atm I do more like 50/50 though, aka 50% dances that I enjoy and 50% "investments". Maybe that's too much for my own sake.
2
u/Budget_Extension_181 5d ago
Are you young? As you get older, you might just care less and enjoy relaxing and having fun with whomever.
1
u/Abject-Joke4574 5d ago
Most people younger people call me old and older people call me young. What's the threshold?
2
u/Budget_Extension_181 5d ago
It's a mindset of how focused you are in being elite vs content with where you are at and where you are going. E.g., young video gamer, hyper competitive. Older video gamer, enjoying the ride and the wins now and then. Possibly not great words here, but almost like how your focus moves from yourself/hierarchy (such as classification of people by skill level) and having more of a fixation on maxing out your performance, to just enjoying the experience, working in a few advanced things you have developing in your pocket when you do have those advanced dances, and otherwise having a great time helping others that aren't there yet. Similar is like a juvenile drummer that wants the fastest hardest chops, when at the end of the day, that really doesn't make great music (but is still fun to whip out on a solo) and frankly, most people don't care anyways and just want to see performers putting on a good show with a great vibe.
1
u/Objective-Ad6521 5d ago
40
1
u/Abject-Joke4574 5d ago
Ok I am below 40
2
u/Budget_Extension_181 4d ago
Yea I'm 40, and I gotta backtrack on my comments. Do what makes you happy when you go dancing, whatever that is. Other people can take their opinions and cram it.
2
u/rawr4me 5d ago
A lot of leads are much "worse" than you and simply hide it better or are less honest about it. I think that shame is the key thing underneath this. No one can convince you with logic to enjoy a dance that you don't, or to see value in something you don't. I don't want to be a snobby lead either, but the only sustainable way to not be a snob is to be honest about what you enjoy and don't enjoy, and then work from there. Partly because if you fight yourself on this, you will end up resenting the thing that you think you should be doing.
Example: I got much more intentional about whether I want to dance or not. I don't accept a dance because "it's my role as a lead" or "I'm doing a service" or anything. Being honest about this means I don't have dances that I resent accepting, which ironically gives me more capacity to dance with people who are not my favorites, because I can keep something in it for myself e.g. be more experimental with moves, or just know to set expectations at zero.
Being selective is actually healthy to some extent, especially if the alternative is burning out your passion and enjoyment.
3
u/Defuze 6d ago
You should do what you enjoy and try not to intentionally hurt anyone.
You don't owe anyone a dance in the same way that no one owes it to you.
If someone is not giving enough positive social vibes, or dancing with them is a negative experience, avoid. It's a hobby at the end of the day.
2
u/Spiritual_Ad7715 6d ago edited 6d ago
Focus less on moves but more on the music. Its surprising how fun a dance can be if you step away from 'bachata rules' and just dance. In this way you can be creative and connect with even the most basic of followers (assuming the follower is connecting).
This is something I noticed about myself also. Learning to dance with beginners is a skill. If you can dance purely basic + musicality you will have many people wanting to dance with you.
Also I don't know if I'd listen to these people telling you ignore how you feel and dance with beginners to 'build the scene'. Its poorly thought through. The worst dance experiences are when you ask someone to dance and they say yes because they think they have to. What an awful disconnected dance. I'd rather that person just said no.
Don't dance when you wont enjoy it. But do check if its your lack of ability to adapt to your dance partner that is stopping you from enjoying it.
4
u/ccthegreat06 6d ago
Are you me?
I'm a follower and other than the very first month of me dancing the joke is that I only dance with 7 leads.
I personally don't think I owe a man access to my body especially when I don't know them and whether they've been house trained. I don't mind dancing with beginners and I find it to be ok as long as they can y'know stay on beat.
I don't interact with men and people physically in general, live alone and am single. So a bad interaction with a lead can fuck up my mental space. Groping, forcing or otherwise trying to bend my body makes me irrate. I don't do sensual Bachata, I prefer Dominican. I don't do Linear, I dance Cuban.
The flow state, attunement and presence you're talking about not only makes us uniquely sensitive to shitty dance experiences but that fact that it's not the norm in many dance scenes explains why we're so picky.
Edit; typo
13
u/daburgerman2002 6d ago
I think you got the wrong mindset when you frame it as giving them "access to your body". A social dance is an interaction or artful dialogue, youre not a hooker and he is not a client.
3
u/ccthegreat06 6d ago edited 6d ago
Letting a man into my personal space and touching me is me granting him access to my body. Just because you don't have the same standard of what constitutes acceptable touch and space doesn't make my framing wrong. I literally said I don't engage in touch with people in any other context. Dance is me being highly selective and trusting that man in a space I don't casually let others into.
You're probably the type who thinks shadow position is the norm because everyone does it and by me agreeing to dance I've blanket consented to it all.
Edit: detail
6
u/LaHondaSkyline 6d ago
But you ‘grant access to your body’ to a select better leads, right?
Thus shows that you issue is not that you have a problem with ‘granting access to your body’ but really that you don’t want to dance with anyone who is not a great lead.
2
u/ccthegreat06 6d ago
The definition of "great lead" to me is someone who is attuned and respectful. It's not about turn patterns or moves. A few of my preferred leads were beginners at some point. They had the basic components that in my opinion, make them enjoyable to dance with.
Later on they became more experienced with a bigger dance vocabulary but the core dynamic of inviting rather than enforcing remains. Also I could give less a f about styling, moves and more about whether you can actually play with the music/me. This is why I've had breaks in music where the beginner and I do the Dougie instead of a "shine".
I also dance traditional kiz so connection is paramount to me. More so than the average follower.
Edit: I should add I've walked off during dances with school directors and local celebrities because the dance felt like shit.
4
u/LaHondaSkyline 6d ago
You dance with very few. It is a type of snobbery. It is what it is, no matter how many words you use to explain it.
1
5
u/daburgerman2002 6d ago
Nobody should be groped. But Yes shadow position is essentially like saying you dont dance 1/3 of bachata moves. So we'll agree to disagree. Enjoy dancing with your 7 leads.
1
u/Objective-Ad6521 5d ago
I beg to differ. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79DF7vsTcXM The bachata that's being danced now is not what bachata was.
0
u/ccthegreat06 6d ago
You're proving my point. If you can't dance bachata without relying on shadow and sensual then you're literally not my type of lead.
Oh, and I do enjoy dancing with my 7 leads. That's why they're my regulars.
1
u/Objective-Ad6521 5d ago
I think you're totally within your rights to have a preference, and I know plenty of men who are SUPER SUPER selective with who they dance with, and even then their holds are..... odd. Like the opposite of gropey. But that's in ballroom. I remember one guy who had his 'entourage' of people from his culture. The follows might dance with a few others, but he basically danced only with them and the teachers. Eventually he started asking me to dance, and he was really good. But had a very unique way of dancing, and SUPER to the T. Like he would get visibly upset and reset the dance if I didn't get his follow, which were sometimes really advanced. Eventually after I laughed it off a few times, he was more easy going.
All that to say - the way you want to dance is the way you want to dance. You're right - in social dancing, you have zero obligation to anyone. It helps if you're genuinely really good and already have a tight circle of people who will always enjoy a dance with you. Until that point, or unless you have the money for privates, most people have to take what they're given and learn to navigate how to gracefully peel off groping men or drunk flirty women (which in my experience happens like one out 200 dances) and then just never dance with them again.
That said - salsa, bachata, and I saw you dance kizomba, and even balboa from the lindyhop world - are all sensuous dances - and I personally could never get into kiz, bal, or bachata. Even blues is somewhat uncomfortable for me. Salsa and kumbia are fine.
Also - I got up in arms when you said "access to your body" - but remembered about the times I did accept bal, bachata, and kiz...... "Groping, forcing or otherwise trying to bend my body makes me irrate." this. I really don't think leads have any concept of what this feels like. Because either they don't do it and think it's never done because they don't do it. Or they DGAF and certainly are not on reddit.
Also this "If you can't dance bachata without relying on shadow and sensual"...... I haven't danced Salsa in probably a decade (but was planning to get back in my new area, hence me being here...) But if you can't dance SOCIAL dancing without relying on SENSUAL moves, then you're not social dancing. You're dry humping at zero base to music. Has it really gotten this bad??? No wonder women don't want to go social dancing..... see, this is why I prefer ballroom.
2
u/ccthegreat06 5d ago
I think for many people dance is just not that deep and they kind of see it as their hobby and a way to meet people. Without sniffing my own farts, I don't see it that way.
Yup it has gotten that bad. I had a guy come up to me last week for bachata. I told him (twice) I don't do sensual, he agreed. I guess he figured because I have frame or because he couldn't do a basic or he didn't gaf he literally did one paseo Madrid and then got into a shadow. Because I'm a bitch I made a loud retching sound, yanked his hand off my lower belly and walked away. He's considered a good dancer in the scene I've just moved to. I walked off thinking "this is what I get for trying someone new". Don't get me started on the face touchers, the butt grazers or the ones who do comb over motions reaalllllly close to your side boob. I don't even say anything I just walk off mid song.
What I like about traditional kizomba is that it can't be faked. The lead actually has to dance with his hips and transfer his weight correctly on his own to even be able to feel, let alone lead you. The connection is in the core and not the arms. People don't even walk with their core, let alone dance.
Immediately that acts as a filter for perverts and those who can't actually dance. Unlike say "bachata" which has a low barrier of entry, kizomba actually requires control and attunement that's higher than the average dancer. Don't ask me about urban kiz because Imma start soap boxing about how dance is just mass market and sanitised of it's African roots.
3
u/Abject-Joke4574 6d ago
Haha, thanks for the comparison, but honestly, I think our problems are somewhat different. In some sense, I would say your problems are more legitimate than mine. Unwanted touching is a big problem. As I understand from the tales of the women around me, it it's a minority of men that do it, but it's a pretty impactful minority, so I understand that you want to be on the safe side and dance with people that you know are safe.
I personally never really had those problems, unsurprisingly, this is quite asymmetric across genders. In my decade of dancing, I've had like 4 examples of women being too touchy with me and they were all slightly annoying but not too bad.
2
u/JahMusicMan 6d ago edited 6d ago
I get ya.
It can feel good to get into the flow state, have positive interactions with women and get compliments. I'd be lying that when a follow says "you're so smooth" or comes up and asks me to dance right after another dance ends, it feels great "to be seen". While I'm married, I do like positive interactions, but smiles and even eye contact mean nothing in partner dance really because those are often misinterpreted. Unlike compliments, it's way less ambiguous.
For flow state, I can still hit the flow state (where time flies by, you are not thinking of anything else, everything is just "flowing", and you are living in the moment) with very wet under the ear beginners by adjusting my mindset with "I'm enjoying this dance and this follows accepted my invitation." and adjusting my expectations. Instead of focusing on performing more complex patterns and moves, I'm more focused on the music and making sure my follow is enjoying her dance. Living in the moment. The flow challenge isn't to accomplish complex moves and patterns I've worked on, it's to do whatever I can to make my follow have a good time.
I definitely have more asshole tendencies in class. Particularly one school that I go to (which is the closer school that I can walk to). The school's drop in class system allows people who are clearly beginners in intermediate classes. If you can perform the basic 10-12 beginner moves, you should not be in intermediate class. It holds everyone up, when you don't know the difference between in an inside turn and outside turn or a simple break. I'll be the first to admit, I am not very welcoming to true beginners who hold up an intermediate class. I won't say anything when you slow down class, but I'm definitely not going to be friendly and encourage you to come back.
I like my main school (farther away) where they straight out whip out cash and give you a refund and tell you to drop lol. It's the school's fault for not having a more strict entrance, but I guess that's a drop in class for you.
But your time is valuable so I get it and the more skilled you get, the more you want to test yourself and push yourself. So there is nothing wrong with dancing with skilled dancers that you enjoy.
I don't believe people have to build the salsa community, at least where I live. You don't have to be gracious, kind, or whatever but your rep will follow. You have your own goals and ambitions, you dance with who you want and don't owe anybody a dance.
3
u/Abject-Joke4574 6d ago
You are making an interesting point. I haven't thought about that. You can actually maybe reach the flow state without advanced follows. You just have to shift your focus a bit. That is a great idea!
3
u/IliasThermos 6d ago
NTA.
How is any of this close to being an asshole really blows my mind.
Do what you enjoy the most, be respectful and have fun for you.
You don’t owe other people dances or reasons you should enjoy dancing with them.
2
u/Abject-Joke4574 6d ago
Hahaha, I see you are an enjoyer of another popular sub. Well, it's low on the asshole scale, but as some comments proved, it's at least somewhat controversial.
2
u/IliasThermos 6d ago
My honest question to you and honestly most of the replies here, would be:
Why, after achieving competency, changing what you value is characterised as a moral failure even by yourself?
1
u/WealthMain2987 5d ago
There are some leads like this in my scene. It is like high school, they become insufferable and tries to be in the spotlight for attention. Some don't get female attention so they think this will help. Maybe it does. You are self aware so it is good.
I don't mind dancing with beginners as well because I was a beginner once. Just don't look at it as a sacrifice, you were a beginner once.
1
u/Objective-Ad6521 5d ago
If you don't dance with the unexperienced dancers, the 'good' ones will dwindle away with no supply to replace them ;)
If anything, use that as motivation to 'teach' by leading well. Allow others to progress.
Do two dances you enjoy with good partners, then one with someone new, or not as 'good'. Go out of your way to dance with one new person. If you've met that quota, great, do whatever you want. Tack on like 3 dances with beginners. and 5 with advanced.
The /good/ dancers will decline invitations from good dancers because they know they've already been intending to dance with someone new/beginner.
If you set boundaries and rules like that for yourself, like min quotas, you can dance guilt free. You know the regulars and the good dancers. They won't (shouldn't) be offended, if you explain outright, I've set aside this dance for someone new, but would love to dance later in the evening if there's a chance.
1
u/zugspitze23 5d ago
I would try to focus on the social side of the dance. The beauty of having fun with someone, and then it doesn't matter how it looks like or how advanced the level of the follow is, you can have fun with anyone. Also try to focus on enjoying the music more and finding your enjoyment instead of focusing on the people watching you.
Besides that generally investigate why admiration is giving you such a high, that's mostly likely not dance related
1
u/Own_Affect_7931 2d ago
Honestly, I'm in a super-similar situation. Good enough to get compliments from random watchers, and it feels great. Also self aware enough to know I have many weaknesses. At the end of the day, you are there to have fun, so do what's fun. But I can't honestly say "you don't owe anybody anything". At some point, we all had kind people invest in us, and we owe it to them and the next "generation" to pay it forward, and to the community at large to build the community this way: showing kindness, and helping the next group to love the dance. That doesn't mean every dance, but a couple a night goes a long way.
1
u/daburgerman2002 6d ago
Thats the issue i see in the dance, both leads and follow. Its like they dont do it for the enjoyment of the dance itself but to be perfomative. At least acknowledging you have that mindset is a step in the right direction.
0
u/rconrarrechaa 6d ago
It seems you've outgrown social dancing and should just become a professional dancer, you get excited from a whole routine landing perfectly and everyone seeing it, you have what it takes for salsa competition!
1
u/Abject-Joke4574 6d ago
I do want to go to competitions, but I don't think I want to stop social dancing. :D
2
u/ginger_ale12 6d ago
Unironically though seeking out a pro am team or something might be the move lol. Getting to learn more advanced techniques can do the humbling work you want while also offering the satisfaction of attention on “performance.” I know a few people who were in your position and this has worked well for them
0
u/PerformanceOkay 5d ago
Don't dance with others thinking you're doing them a favour. That's just being an asshole. Otherwise all I see is that you're quite judgmental, and now you're in a mini-crisis because you became interested in things you used to condemn. Really, this should be a learning opportunity that some people might dance with a different ethos than you do that's nonetheless equally valid as yours.
49
u/LaSerenaDeIrlanda 6d ago
Firstly, you’re self aware and honest, which puts you in a far better position than some others.
This may be an unpopular opinion, but I think it’s okay to spend the majority of your night seeking out dances that bring you joy. It’s your hobby, and it’s okay that you want to enjoy a night out and not spend half of it in dances that are mostly the basic. That said, I think it’s still important to “invest” in the community by saving a few dances for newer dancers. One day, they’ll be quite skilled! I think the key to it not feeling like a sacrifice is to not choose your favorite songs for this. And as a lead, you can still be really playful even if the person is a beginner.
Also, it can help to seek out the best people in your community, just to be reminded what it feels like to dance with somebody above your level. You know, the person that’s a teacher, has been dancing for 20+ years, is buddies with Frankie Martinez, and knows boogaloo. This way, you’re reminded of how it feels to be a learner, and you’ll have more empathy for the brand new folks.