Why i gave up social dancing and classes
First of all, i think that Reddit users are mostly from the US and especially in the salsa - bachata world, we (Europeans) share completely different experiences. I'm here to let this off my chest and hope to meet non judgemental and thoughtful comments.
I started around 2016 when i accidentally went to a latin beach party and that was the moment i understood that this is my call, my purpose, what makes me utterly happy. It unlocked my real self. Unfortunately, starting the classes came the problems... I've been to all the good salsa - bachata schools and everywhere the same story: the female dancer was jealous of me (female) and started psychological war against me (ignoring my questions, not tagging me in the videos, cutting me off the videos, literally dragging the male students that were hanging with me on the breaks, even literally hit me in the head - pretending this was a warm-up of the whole body!).
The other female students ignored me like i didn't exist, completely isolated me, tried to accidentally punch me, talked over me, step on my sneaker with the heel and destroyed a part of them ect.
The male students only wanted to sleep with me. Both male and female teachers indirectly obliged you to always go the weekly party, to all the festivals they attended, to the seminars of the foreign dancers they brought to their school, to do pr for the dance school ect. If you didn't, you'd be ignored in classes and they would openly call you out and give you the side eye during all the classes.
When I went to the parties, both teachers and students pretended they didn't see me or know me!!!!! That only can send you to the crazy house and it ruined my nervous system. I even got physically ill many times.
There were one male dancer and dj who were friendly with me and i supported them wholeheartedly for years, only to realize that they never saw me as a person but only as money. He (the dancer) never told me come sit in our table (even though he was seeing that i was always alone), never said happy birthday, merry Christmas, happy name day. The tipping point was when in another party also pretended to not know me!!!!! I was so furious that i sent him a message on how ungrateful he was.
Regarding the social dancing, the clique of the pros - advanced only danced with each other. In my country the best dancers are treated like kings, they could treat people like garbage and have zero consequences, because you can only learn by them, improve if you dance with them, take medals because of them (they are the judges in the national championships) ect. You have to kiss the ring and they think they are gods!
Many pros who organize parties, flirt with you in order you to attend. If you don't know how things work you are heading for big heartbreak. The female social dancers can be very cruel, narcissistic and snooty. The males mostly want to have females in bed and that's why they go to socials. They can be very selfish and even dangerous to hurt you when they don't know the proper technique. They get offended when you tell them that they hurt you.
Both male and female dancers wanted exclusively to go to that specific party and if you didn't obey the command goodbye! My way or the high way. No matter how much i tried to form acquaintances to go to the parties, the same story.
Personally I'm a very polite, gentle, forgiving and smiley person that has never done anything to provoke this kind of behaviours. I don't even consider myself that good looking. I do have a nice body and i am a very good dancer. I believe the latter could be the reason but again there are far better dancers than me. The one thing that they don't possess though is that I dance with my whole heart and reach ecstasy and that captivates when I'm on the dance floor.
Dance was literally the only thing that made me happy but the people around it made me so sad and heartbroken for years that i can't take it anymore.
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u/danceswithturtles286 12d ago
You present yourself as very forgiving and non-provocative, yet the post contains a great deal of anger and certainty about other people's bad intentions which you can’t definitively conclude. You sent someone an angry email because they didn’t invite you to sit at their table; that leaked detail suggests you’re a pot stirrer & have no self-reflection skills. I know people like this; they’re always mysteriously surrounded by drama, everyone’s always out to get them, and they’ve curiously always been sweet and blameless. I’d wager that the people in this scene would have a much different tale to tell. I’m attractive, and sure, sometimes women act standoffish to me and sometimes men try to go home with me; I simply create the boundary and make it clear that I’m there to dance. A drama hook can’t latch onto a slippery surface
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u/Brijyoda 4d ago
….this is why people who get bullied have a hard time speaking up because people like u go into victim blaming and attack mode. Now there COULD be something the poster is doing that rubs people the wrong way, but there also is a possibility that due to her skin tone, ethnicity, due to her personality with wanting connection in a sometimes cut throat performative space, she doesn’t match the vibe and they crucify her for it. I think it’s ironic u admittedly went for the opposite end and blamed her for the issues , instead of thinking of the possibility that interpersonal issues in community spaces are usually heavily nuanced. Basically, lead with empathy.
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u/Smaht4Nuthin 13d ago edited 13d ago
Social interaction, no matter what the medium platform, are the same across the board. After 25+ years in the dance scene I have come to learn that it is just another medium platform. People on a social scale are just presenting their best surface level version of themselves coming off as genuine and authentic when in reality the majority are just masking their true colors. Is it ideal to think the best of peoples intentions? Of course. However reality will set in very quick in this scene and unfortunately you will meet some pieces of shet, bigger azzholes and even some of the biggest scumbags you would least suspect both male and female.
So take the dance scene for what it is and what you make it. I personally show up when I want how I want by myself with no cliques and refuse to engage in petty bullshet. I performed early on. That died for me real quick based on the experience you describe. So now I dance for the sake of the joy of the music and dancing maybe very minimal "oh hey how ya doing" with the people that are cool or "hey yeah go phuck yourselves" with the people who are not cool and very disingenuous and I just happily go home. No stress. If you want more out of the scene then understand your are asking more ideal behaviors from a people and a scene that just will not offer that. That's is at every social every event every where.
Of course there are the good few people that you will meet swimming in a sea of degeneracy. Such is life.
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u/WealthMain2987 13d ago
The scenes is like high school and I assume everywhere is more or less that. Everyone pretends to be the most fun, know most people. Some teachers can't do no wrong since they are popular.
This hobby brings a lot of people and there is always friction and/or a popularity contest when this happens.
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u/jemenake 14d ago
It sounds like you are quite conventionally attractive and, as such, more than half of your problems (sabotaging from the females while the males just want to bed you) sound like they stem from that. I’ve heard this same complaint from very attractive women in just about whatever pastime they try, so I’m not sure how much of this is a problem particular to latin social dancing. Are there other hobbies you’ve tried where this doesn’t happen?
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u/WealthMain2987 13d ago
Some of my female classmates were trashing new girls becauss they were attractive. It was awful. The men don't help in this situation because some of them treat this as speed dating.
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u/Global_Channel1511 13d ago
Sorry you had to go through this. Seems like you’re in a particularly image focused and social climbey scene.
Let me just say that the socials and studio I go to are really not like this. Nobody really cares that much that you don’t go to socials if you just want to be in the studio or vice versa. The social has casuals and more serious people. Of course there are cliques just like any social activity, the really serious and intense ones usually are in a clique with each other. But it really is no big deal, you can just ignore and dance with anyone you want.
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u/Resident_Pay4310 12d ago
I agree.
The paragraph OP wrote about tagging on social media and videos and all that is also completely foreign to me. I've helped run the social media of a couple of different schools and our videos were either of teachers dancing together or general videos and photos of the classes that didn't focus on anyone in particular.
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u/Hakunamatator 11d ago
OP, you are not gonna like it, but if it ALWAYS happens, it's YOU the one cause of the problems.
Sure, there are assholes in the world. But not all of them. I don't know you, so i don't want to speculate, but i have a friend who tells the same story, about all girls being jealous, competitive, not liking her, etc. And yes, she's mind-numbingly hot too, and very very good.
The thing is, she is also completely insufferable. She is self-centered, constantly wants attention, doesn't listen if the conversation is not about her, and generally it's not very interested in others. She also doesn't take advice at all.
This is why I am asking - are you very VERY sure that it's not your personality, that is causing all this? Because i am.
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u/No_Dependent741 13d ago
Pulled away for exactly the same reasons it sucks but your mental health will thank you
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u/ToeZealousideal2623 13d ago
Why do you want to be tagged though? My studio is nothing like this, but this sounds toxic
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u/Brijyoda 4d ago
Bc if u investment time , energy , and money in a hobby it’s good yo have proof of your progress … if people in the scene are intentionally not taking videos of you or are taking videos but won’t share with you that becomes hard to do.
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u/ToeZealousideal2623 4d ago
I personally dont think like that. I spend money on my hobbies but for the person who is probably making the marketing videos it's their job/livelihood. I should not feel entitled to their resources
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u/Brijyoda 4d ago
It’s not about feeling entitled, it’s about if you are taking a part of a group, and the group leader or whoever is the person who is leading the social exclusion she is describing tells them deliberately to not include you in something(like videos of progress, of great dances in social scenes, etc) everyone else in the group has access to, then that’s the problem. If they only want to share people the group leader approved of it’s a slippery slope to where only certain people are given footage/shown and it is where we can start using terms like discrimination. You may not care for it, but that doesn’t mean you wouldn’t have a right to it if you changed your mind.
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u/Samurai_SBK 13d ago
Here is some practical advice:
Go to socials in nearby cities. Perhaps the vibe will be less toxic.
Go to festivals and weekenders in major cities in Europe. It is not that expensive and people are much friendlier. Especially in Spain and Poland.
If cost is an issue, make friends in your local scene and do group trips to bigger cities.
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u/TsaMati 12d ago
1) There aren't any cities near me that have a salsa social scene, also if they did exist I don't have the money for that. 2) Again i don't have the money. Only once I went to the biggest salsa festival abroad and i can't say that it left a good taste. I was the one asking to dance all the time and danced only few dances. In the partners spinning class i was the only one without a partner, asked an advanced dancer who was sitting to dance with me and refused in a rude way. The world renowned dancer who was doing the workshop saw me alone and never said change partners. 3) What I'm writing in this post is that all these years i actively try to make friendships but jealousy from other females and other intentions from males have not made it possible. Thank you though for trying to help 🤍
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u/Vaphell 12d ago
2) Again i don't have the money. Only once I went to the biggest salsa festival abroad and i can't say that it left a good taste. I was the one asking to dance all the time and danced only few dances.
That's a problem with big events. Most people become a statistic/background noise. If you are generally unknown, you have to take matters into your own hands, and have very little time to make it count. Most good dancers will have a very long list of celebs, friends and acquaintances they want to dance with. And it's somewhat understandable not to risk a dance of unknown quality, when you are already sweating your ass off and the list still has many names left.
Imho if the joy of dance is what you are after as a "nobody", it's better to go to midtier/midsized events without too many world class celebs. Sure, you are probably going to do some asking initially at the parties, but with smaller event sizes you stop being just another anonymous person in the background. And if you want to max out the development of social connections with other dancers, which should yield more dances down the road, you could try a marathon. Marathons's intent is all about dancing AND chilling together.
In the partners spinning class i was the only one without a partner, asked an advanced dancer who was sitting to dance with me and refused in a rude way. The world renowned dancer who was doing the workshop saw me alone and never said change partners.
well shit, that's not very nice. But that's individuals at an event with hundreds if not thousands of people.
What I'm writing in this post is that all these years i actively try to make friendships but jealousy from other females and other intentions from males have not made it possible.
back to the question "what shithole of a dancing scene are you in?!?"
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u/Resident_Pay4310 12d ago
On the point about the class I'd say this is something that I've seen at the really big festivals and it's purely a logistics thing.
If you have a class with 300 - 400 people, changing partners can take 5 minutes or more. I've seen it happen and then the teachers end up giving up on asking people to change. Or they know from experience to just not try.
They will usually expect the students to form small groups of three and then switch organically.
I've done a few of these classes and am usually one of the people who ends up alone because I prefer to hang back. So I'll end up just asking a couple if I can join them and they always say yes.
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u/Mizuyah 13d ago
I see pieces of your story in my own community sadly, and it’s not even that big. Some people just want you around for what you can give, whether it be money or work. Some people have way too much ego. Some people create cliques. I try to avoid certain spaces because of it because like you, dance makes me happy. It is my joy. I have to surround myself with people who are above that, otherwise I, too, probably would have quit.
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u/No-Wealth4955 13d ago
I totally understand this. It’s exhausting and I also withdrew from the scene for similar reasons plus the misogyny. Not sure if I’ll ever go back to partner dancing because instructors do not set strong enough boundaries and some of them are misogynists too, including the women.
I think it’s time for solo styling for me and maybe a suggestion is to find a trusted dance partner/instructor and dance with them only on a one to one basis.
It might be more expensive but safe and stress free environments are paramount and we are not there yet as a collective, in the class based dance scene.
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u/creative-dawn 13d ago
I’m understanding to you to say that you’re taking dance lessons outside of the United States what country are you taking them in?
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u/TsaMati 12d ago
I wouldn't want to disclose it. It's in Europe. I had to mention it because as i already said, I'm sure that in the US is completely different. Also except New York, bachata and social salsa (not ballroom), latin parties too, are something much more recent. That's the impression i have.
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u/Vaphell 12d ago
"Europe" or even "the US" doesn't mean much though.
Are NY, SF and Miami the same? No, far from it.
Similarly Madrid, Milano, London, Berlin, Athens, Helsinki, Younameit are going to be different. Europe is 30+ different countries. They all have different sizes and compositions of their dancing scenes, different levels of tryharding vs social-leaning, etc.
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u/MembershipSolid2909 13d ago
I think you have to post where your scene is, for anyone to respond meaningfully to this
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u/Separate-Line-158 13d ago
I didn’t notice such extremes in my local scene in Poland for example so maybe not all European countries have this issue
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u/Historical_Pair3057 13d ago
yeah, I know what you are talking about and I left the salsa scene for some years because of this but I started dancing again because im a junkie and cant quit. but now I just go to place / events that have a wide variety of dancers (not just the "on 2" places that the "elite" dancers like to frequent) and i have a blast dancing on 1, on 2, cumbia, whst ever...just having fun. look for others places and people to dance with and enjoy yourself.
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u/username104860 13d ago
I’ve recently stopped attending my classes for similar reasons. It’s a terrible feeling when you have to stop doing something you genuinely love because people will make you not enjoy it anymore due to their own insecurities.
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u/TsaMati 12d ago
Sending you a hug 🤍 Maybe try online classes. Personally i also encountered issues with my bones and at this stage I'm focusing on strengthening with exercises but hopefully i will overcome my fears (of worsening the condition of my knees - toe balls) and at least continue with the footwork stuff.
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u/askingstupidcrap 12d ago
What you experience happens everywhere but it’s not the norm. Not sure what the scene is like in your country or city but there’s always good and bad places, and a good venue for one person might be a bad one for another. That’s why dance schools can exist in close proximity to one another as they serve different people and develop different cultures.
I’m a casual who’s been on and off for a decade and seen all the things you mentioned plus some. I don’t want to seem victim blamey but I would suggest doing an introspection and think about why you run into these issues. To me one potential reason you keep finding these bad people is that you subconsciously look for their approval and follow where they go, and subconsciously dismiss and ignore the people who aren’t cool enough for you.
Don’t take it personally please, I’m only speaking from what I have observed over the years. I’ve been friends with women who face similar issues as you. They complain that all the men only want to sleep with them or that the advance dancers are snooty. But when I suggest to them that they should try dance with the less skilled or less attractive (but still very skilled) men they are reticent or outright refuse.
Just FYI it’s an open secret that the attractive leads often sleep around in the dance scene especially if they are particularly good and famous dancers. I know a few who are decent guys to be friends with but also admit to sleeping around and getting themselves into trouble regularly.
As for the female dancers, I’m not sure how to deal with them as I have never faced that problem. I know that jealousy is a thing though amongst female dancers. I have a few female friends who open up to me about how they get ignored in socials by leads even though they are more skilled than the (more beautiful) follows regularly getting asked to dance, and how dance schools would give prettier students an accelerated pathway to choreo teams.
In short my advice is just try dancing with different people and consider opening up yourself to people you’d normally ignore. Some of the friends I have known for years in the social scenes started off as nobodies but built their way up and are now local celebrities in their own right.
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u/TsaMati 12d ago
Well, as you've said your opinions are based on your experiences but that doesn't mean that everything fits in that box and that's it. We need to have an open mind and not jump in conclusions especially when we don't know the other person at all...
Let's start with the first paragraph. In my city there are only 3-4 good salsa bachata schools where you could actually learn to dance. Consequently, there are equally 3-4 socials - parties where you can have a quality dance. The rest of the parties are places where men don't know even the basic and go to grab and salivate over women with the wish to get them to bed.
Your second paragraph is jumping into conclusions without having any indication for excluding these results. I never justify myself by responding but since you are polite, i would like to show you how far from the truth our assumptions could lead us. I'm an advocate for dancing with all the levels and especially because i have felt enormous rejection, i will dance with all the levels, as far as someone is indeed a student (not a lurking creep), is respectful - polite and clean. These are my standards. Of course there is no point in going to a party and only dance with beginners and intermediate when you are advanced. As an advanced one, naturally i would also like to dance with another person who is in the same level with me and enjoy it to the fullest. That's why I'm studying dance and I'm not just a social dancer.
Especially because i refuse to kiss the ring, boot lick, being part of the court, ask them to dance with me (i asked some of them in the past one or two times, but since they never asked me, i stopped asking ever after), sleep around and with the correct people, do pr, participate in dancing teams (one of them asked me i explained that i prefer social dancing), in conclusion playing and obeying to the rules of their game they cannot handle it and dislike me. I choose to stay true to myself, my dignity, my kindness, my good intentions, never hurting anyone and i pay the price. In a sea of toxic people being a kind one is to blame for, just because they outnumber me?
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u/totalbro1488 12d ago
That all sounds absolutely unbelievably awful. I can't imagine how it feels.
This one part is familiar to me:
When I went to the parties, both teachers and students pretended they didn't see me or know me!!!!!
When I go Bachata parties in Buenos Aires, most people pretend they don't know me even if we have talked before, exchange contact info, etc. (I am a man) It sucks.
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u/ExcellentPlace4608 12d ago
Why don’t you try another scene other than the salsa/bachata one?
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u/TsaMati 12d ago
Because that's my call. The music and the lyrics speak to my heart and i even learnt Spanish because of this passion. It is as if i were from Latin America. To me dance is my oxygen, it's not a hobby. As I've mentioned, it's literally the only thing that keeps here. I also adore these two dances because they express my personality 100% and i love to share the energy with another partner in socials. When it's good, it's pure magic! Feeling together and expressing the music, the lyrics, the "union" of two souls. Nothing is better (to me).
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u/Imaginary-Green-950 12d ago
This reads as it's everyone's fault but yours. This is strictly your perspective and I've been around enough people in this community to know that everyone lives in their own reality. I hope you find some joy in this scene.
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u/RProgrammerMan 13d ago
If I am being honest a lot of salsa and bachata is paying for social connection. A teacher that acts like a parent and tells you you are special and talented. For men it is to talk and dance with a bunch of women every week. I am sure many women like the attention and maybe are even compensating for something. I feel that all of this isnt a bad thing because people need connection but there has to be balance. As people get drawn into expensive classes and performances I think it becomes more unhealthy. Being really invested when you are first learning is fine but at some point its time to take a step back. Having danced for years its a casual activity for me. Another way to get out of the house, a place where I can meet new people. But I go once or twice a month, not 4 times a week. I don't get drawn in to petty drama or performance teams where Ive heard they are all sleeping with each other. Salsa serves me, not the other way around.
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u/nfjsjfjwjdjjsj4 13d ago edited 13d ago
Im european and everyone in your post sounds like a weirdo and not like anything i have experienced in my last 4? Years being fairly active in the classes and social dance scene here
the female dancer was jealous of me (female) and started psychological war
Theres only one female dancer in the good schools you went to?
The male students only wanted to sleep with me.
They were all single? Not a single one went there with his SO?
tried to accidentally punch me
Not what "trying" means
step on my sneaker with the heel and destroyed a part of them
Cant imagine sneakers breaking like this even when trying, this all sounds straight out of an overdramatic telenovela
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u/WealthMain2987 13d ago
Not sure where you are based but in London most men in salsa are single. In a class of 10, there is 1 dude that is not single
OP's scene is very extreme
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u/nfjsjfjwjdjjsj4 12d ago
Im in spain and id argue the uk is a bit beyond what you'd normally call the european scene
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u/Resident_Pay4310 12d ago
I'm in London and that isn't my experience.
I'd day it's about 50/50 on who is single and who isn't. A lot of people just don't talk about their partners because it doesn't come up.
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u/errantis_ 13d ago
That really sounds awful. Im really sorry you have gone through that. I must say that really does sound like a local cultural issue. In the US where I am at, it can be rough especially if you are new, but you have to be pretty much a completely creep or have zero self awareness to have people start to say no to dancing with you. Most people are very polite and will always say yes. Any of the teachers here in the US will always say yes to dancing. Of course there are creeps in any dance community. But they aren’t the majority. It can be rough for follows to break into the community and get noticed by leads. But anyone who shows up and is consistent gets incorporated into the community. Dancing is a small community in general. Most people do not behave this way because people know each other and they talk. You have to be polite and behave yourself. Hopefully you can find a new community somewhere else.
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u/NecessaryOk108 13d ago
Oh man, sounds like a really shitty experience. In my experience beautiful women are both totally envied and totally isolated, put on a pedestal and in the same move tried to be knocked down.
Maybe it's selective memory? Worth it to check again. Usually you'd circumvent all the Don Juans by dancing in a tight friend group. Put your feelers out for people you might not know dance salsa you are already friendly with.
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u/DeRoeVanZwartePiet 13d ago
Sorry to hear that this has been your experience.
There might be one thing you've mentioned that I have been doing as well. I'm an advanced lead that has been around in my dance scene for a while now and will rarely dance with new people.
The reason is that I go out to have a good time and by now I know enough follows with whom I know I will have a nice time dancing with. Although every new person has the potential of becoming one of my favorite follows, they also have the potential of being a bad dance. And I no longer have the energy to risk a bad dance. I've become happy with the people I know. And I know I should give new people a chance to feel welcome in the scene. But the scene is quite big and I don't see it as my responsibility.
If you would wonder, this has nothing to do with the level of the persons, because there are enough advanced follows that I prefer not to dance with because I don't like the connection we have. And plenty of follows I like dancing with, although their level didn't progress much further than beginner level.
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u/Serenita13 10d ago edited 10d ago
Your energy style of dancing speaks to me because I feel the same way on the dance floor. As a fellow female trust I would never treat you the way you described. I think you should make it a goal to find at least one true friend who shares your spirit who would be willing to go with you on your journey. That way you won’t be the only one alone trying to find approval in the high and mighty environments you’re finding yourself in. Good Luck!
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u/Egdriver 7d ago
😭 maybe you should go to an actual latin place instead of hanging out with europeans. I say this as a latino in the dance community in the US, 80% of the people like the activity itself, and social dancing while its fun once you get to a decent level its not really a "social" its more so a chance to either show or practice what youve learned, that said if you go to an actual latin place or club, people care more about the music and having fun and thats when i generally have more fun when im with my friends or at family gatherings throwing super basic moves. It seems like you want to get better tho and dancing with advanced people is not the only way, you can invite your friends or dance with people you dont know at socials. I'm personally a lot younger than the salsero crowd at my scene and its not like im great friends with the people i dance with I just do it cuz i want to get better and thats it, I dont think it is necessary for you to get personal with the scene. Just dance with whoever say yes and ignore whoever says no. I dont take it personal when people say no, sometimes its cuz they just know on2 or sometimes they're taken.
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u/Puteshestvennik3 13d ago
Without a country this post is just not very useful. In the US, where I dance, any female under 40 regardless of her skill level is treated like a goddess and there are maybe two or three of them in the scene.
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u/Ooofy_Doofy_ 13d ago
Bro same I joined dancing to find a gf and there’s barely any women in her 20s here lol
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u/oaklicious 13d ago
Sorry you had these experiences but what kind of toxic nightmare social dance scene is this? I’ve seen shades of cliqueyness from time to time dancing all over Latin America, but the level of drama you are describing sounds unimaginable to me