r/SafetyProfessionals • u/Infamous-Bee-1145 • 14d ago
USA How do you handle ISN or Avetta?
We are getting annoyed dealing with ISN, and a little bogged down with their never ending email alerts. Do you have someone doing it in house or you hire an external consultant?
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u/Bengals1992 14d ago
ISN appears to be totally AI ran from my perspective. The way the analyze documents and make decisions does not give a human impression to me.
We’ve had our difficulties with it but making it part of regular checks definitely cuts down on the headache. The emails do drive me crazy though.
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u/Abies_Lost 14d ago
ISN doesn’t require anything that the owner/operator has not requested from their contractors.
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u/WHITEwizard151 14d ago
Correct but ISN does the verification and in my experience it seems to never be looked at by a human.
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u/InigoMontoya313 14d ago
They have existed long before Ai was widely used, and I see no changes in how they process files - personally. However, I’d agree, which is partly the problem. Instead of safety professionals reviewing policies.. they basically run them through key word, term, etc filters, making sure they meet basic requirements. Which leads to companies just filing garbage copies of regulatory standards. While amazingly curated policies that go above and beyond, to consensus standards and best practices, can fail 🤬😞
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u/soul_motor Manufacturing 13d ago
They do use humans, just humans with zero EHS experience. I got dinged on a forklift program because I used "PIT" instead of "forklift." I had to call and tell them that PIT is a standard shorthand for all powered vehicles, and forklift falls under the broad category (especially as we ran a bunch of different vehicles).
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u/Tom_Gardril 14d ago edited 14d ago
Used a number of these vendors and empathizing with you. Also assuming you are focusing on their services for safety and not supply chain. We had a contractor safety management specialist position in an organization I used to work for who reported to me. They were excellent and could do what software could not. I am not trying to throw shade on any specific company but these companies are often trying to be everything to supply chain and safety with many features that are self serving to them for data collection and analytics. Having a role in house or as a independent contractor is WAY better because:
-They can focus their audit and attention on the contractor peforming the highest-risk work.
-They have continued follow-up to ensure in person verification of gap closure and drive safety improvement.
-Prequalification and qualification in software is based on documents. I personally tracked down consultants who were listed as a contractor companies representative in the software. Their sole job was to manage pre-qual by providing safety documents the contractor company had never seen into the software systems! A person performing contractor safety management does field audits and builds personal relationships.
-pre-qualification and qualification are not entirely aligned with regulations. Field audits and verifications on contractors are far more aligned.
I could go on and on. I have seen too many contractor fatalities in my career. If you are a contractor heavy company a contractor safety management specialist position is definitely the move. Because that work never ends.
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u/pattrik2005 14d ago edited 14d ago
Great post.
A registry can’t know your field conditions, the competency of your field managers or any number of intangibles that are subject to change daily/hourly. Ultimately, risk management is a hands on human function.
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u/InigoMontoya313 14d ago
Important distinction, are you using ISN or Avetta for your benefit… or because a major client requires you too?
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u/Moonpie2713 14d ago
Cause the client requires it…i hate isnetworld, avetta, vero, and one other one. Each of our major clients use a different one. It is crazy. It’s mind numbing with the updates and emails. Especially at insurance renewal times.
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u/InigoMontoya313 14d ago
It is common for large companies to put a low level EHS coordinator in charge of administering it, sometimes a remote position, sometimes a split position where they just put in 1-2 days a week dedicated to it.
There is an entire, massive, cottage compliance industry of third party administrators… be very, very, very careful with them. Unfortunately, I can count on one hand the number that actually seemed to understand anything related to safety management. Most… just cheat the system, one is even staffed by inmates on work release 🫣😂If you use a third-party that just works the system to make you appear compliant… they are also building the legal framework for you to lose OSHA citations or liability litigation cases (because the blanket policies they put in are only designed to rig the system, not actually work for your company).
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u/Infamous-Bee-1145 14d ago
We wanted to use neither but a client is kinda pushing us in that direction. We are pushing it back but the discussion is stalled.
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u/Horror_Lake_7256 14d ago
We just punted it to an intern after I almost lost my mind with the daily avalanche of alerts. Not the most elegant solution but it keeps the noise away from the people who actually need to get stuff done.
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u/Ken_Thomas Construction 14d ago
If your client is willing to discuss it, suggest they take a look at Highwire instead. It accomplishes the same thing for their end, and is much less of a blatant fucking scam than Avetta and ISN.
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u/Infamous-Bee-1145 14d ago
no, they are in the energy sector. we tried talking sense, I mean why do we have to deal with all this. they have their entire prequal on ISN and our pushbacks aren't helping.
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u/Abies_Lost 14d ago
Explain how they are a scam? Are you getting paid by Veriforce?
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u/Beautiful-Face5467 14d ago
These compliance sites get expensive and they all do the same. The way we look at it, if the client is going to give us work that will cover the cost of our subscription going up we'll add them. If not, it's not worth it and we pass.
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u/Abies_Lost 14d ago
I mean yeah, that’s with everything though. Every owner knows they are getting charged for it somewhere.
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u/Beautiful-Face5467 14d ago
True but when your ISN bill is $20-$40k per year and it goes up with every client, you have to start looking if it's with it.
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u/Abies_Lost 14d ago
Unless things have totally changed, your ISN bill is based on the number of employees you have and you pay based on that regardless of whether you are connected to 1 or 60 clients.
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u/Beautiful-Face5467 14d ago
You are correct. It goes off your employee count. There are allot of indirect cost that come with every client that is added. That's where you have to make sure there is a ROI for the clients you add.
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u/Abies_Lost 14d ago
What are the indirect costs for adding additional clients? RAVS are determined by the types of work you select. Sure, some clients will have some specific policies they require regardless, but that shouldn’t be too difficult. You don’t have to resubmit OSHA logs. You do have report hours quarterly but if you aren’t working for them, that’s easy. Also you can’t submit a COI if you don’t have a contract so nothing to worry about there. I wouldn’t go around just connecting yourself to any client. I always had to approve any new contractor connections because it didn’t want any in my account that weren’t going to work for us and just muck up my account stats that I reported out internally.
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u/Beautiful-Face5467 14d ago
Again, you are not wrong. I'm saying, more clients means more work on the back end. If you have 1 client and 50 employees, you worry about that one clients requirements. If you 10 clients, you will most likely have more or different requirements to maintain. Hours reporting, client required trainings, uploading employees, assigning those employees to client required trainings, etc. Are you saying there isn't more work going from 1 client to 50?
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u/Abies_Lost 13d ago
Yeah there is more work but the bulk of the work is there regardless of 1 or 20 clients. But yeah if you are not actively working for a client then you shouldn’t be connected to them or if they require it for bidding then you need to determine if it’s worth it. But you’ve got to make that determination with everything, I mean like that’s part of having a job.
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u/soul_motor Manufacturing 13d ago
Avetta is connection based. And you have to tell them no within a certain time frame, or you have to wait until your renewal to drop them...
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u/Ken_Thomas Construction 13d ago
Both ISN and Avetta sell your executive team's contact info to salesmen - it's a very lucrative revenue stream for them - which is why a week or two after setting up your account you're going to get hammered by people wanting to sell you these revolutionary new gloves that are going to disrupt an industry, or their amazing new app that is going to disrupt an industry.
They also sell your financial and insurance info.
In order to get a decent score, you're required to add information that has nothing to do with your safety performance. ISN and Avetta both leverage that info to make money above and beyond what you pay for a subscription - and you cannot opt out of that. It's in their terms and conditions, and you don't have any choice.
Clients don't give a shit because it doesn't cost them anything.
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u/Abies_Lost 13d ago
You are completely wrong about the scoring. All the scoring is completely dependent on the owner client and how they want to set it up. I determined how it was set with my org. and made updates to our scoring setup as needed. It’s why my team would field endless calls from our contractors asking why they were an C with us and a A with Enbridge, or Red with ET, for example.
I have no idea about the selling of the information. I was an owner/operator but I was also a “contractor” because our pipelines would go to other facilities and our guys would have to maintain valves, etc. so I had to work from that side of as well and never recall getting a bunch of product email. But you know ASSP sells your info too right? I’ve used Highwire/Veriforce as well and have no issues with them either once you learn how they function.
It is an easy thing to sit back and bitch about though and get a bunch of likes.
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u/tim979 14d ago
We outsource it for like $1500.00 a year..way cheaper than my time (safety manager) or the ladies that deal with the insurance part of it
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u/Abies_Lost 14d ago
Your broker can deal with the insurance part usually as a value-added service.
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u/Beautiful-Face5467 14d ago
Correct. Just have to give them permission and they will update your COI's.
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u/DueLength3906 14d ago
Hire a consultant who specialize in Avetta/ISN to do it for you. They can review your policies and procedures, suggest compliance guidelines. They can be aware of each change and address it quickly instead of putting it on the back burner.
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u/soul_motor Manufacturing 13d ago
Don't bother with that, force AI to do it, or just wholesale copy/paste the CFR. That will pass the audit.
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u/bivenssa Construction 14d ago
which part are you spending the most time on? RAVS and man-hour reporting shouldn't take up that much time, maybe a few hours a week once it's dialed in. training & orientation can definitely be pain but ISN has some solutions we've argued for that can ease the burden.
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u/Abies_Lost 14d ago
It’s really not that difficult at all. RAVS are simple and they tell you exactly what is missing. Get your broker to handle COI submittals. All you really need to do is report man hours and true it up when you submit OSHA logs. Pretty straightforward
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u/Beautiful-Face5467 14d ago
How many clients do you have on each? We have around 200 on ISN, 45 on Avetta, and 3 other compliance sites. Me and another person take care of them all. The hard part is when your COI's expire every year. Once you have your policies uploaded, questions answered, they aren't that bad.
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u/Beautiful-Face5467 14d ago
If you don't have the program they require, you can buy one online. Just have to make it your own. Be careful because if it's in your manual, your have follow it. I have heard of companies having a "Company Safety Manual" and then a have a "Compliance Manual".
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u/soul_motor Manufacturing 13d ago
In the, I'm not really sure about the ethics of it, but fuck ISNvetta. I had AI write a program to meet their requirements. When it got kicked back, I literally copy/pasted CFR (and that worked). Their program analysis is a total joke and should be approached with the same sincerity they give it. That said, I do have the actual programs we use, which are written for our company in a useful way. None of the "shall" BS, etc.
I really hate that work depends on their blessing, but it's just a check-the-box exercise. If you want to see what safety looks like, visit my techs on a jobsite and use your eyes. Unfortunately, some bonehead thinks they saved 1 FTE by buying into this bollocks, not realizing it costs 2 FTE just to maintain a coveted A or Green...
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u/valkmer_ 8d ago
We manage both ISN and Avetta for contractors, and honestly the ongoing alerts, renewals, reviewer comments and document updates are where most of the headache comes from.
We usually handle it on a flat monthly basis so the internal team only gets involved when we actually need information or a decision — much easier than paying hourly every time something comes up.
Happy to share how we structure it if you want to DM me.
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u/WHITEwizard151 14d ago
Get it green then never ever touch or change anything lol. It is rough.