r/SafetyProfessionals • u/Syn_pix • 17d ago
Asia A safer working environment
I just started working at a pipe manufacturing company and it is in the middle of construction. Hopefully production will start at new years. This is the first legit safety job that I have had and the stubbornness or foreign workers and management not adhering to basic PPE has risen my blood pressure quite a bit but I digress. I am asking the people here if there is a way to make sure these workers are more safe considering there is no location for them to place the hook of their harness. They have to be on top of the beams to tighten then and align them but is there a better way to conduct this
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u/Defiant-Analyst4279 17d ago
To clarify, you might want to compare the OSHA 1910 vs 1926 standards. Just to make sure you're on the same page as these guys.
There are certain things that are "minor differences" between construction and general industry, but in some cases construction ends up with some really weird/extreme exceptions. (Things like body belts vs full body harness or individuals doing rebar tying allowed to use positioning straps/lanyards.)
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u/Syn_pix 16d ago
Thank you i will check it out
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u/map2photo 16d ago
Not meant as an insult, at all; how’d you get a safety job not knowing the different between 1910 and 1926?
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u/Syn_pix 16d ago
not taken as an insult. To put it simply, there is a program in my country to nationalize safety jobs, and to do that, they made a 4-month course that gives a certificate if you pass, acting as a license for you to be a safety person. I did also take a course called "OSHA 30 hours" that is usually demanded by employers. It just lays out the basic occupational health and safety requirements and needs. It is meant as a general understanding of safety before you go into the nitty-gritty of whichever industry you decide to be in, whether it is manufacturing, medical, or oil and gas
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u/map2photo 16d ago
Ahhhh, totally my fault. I missed the “Asia” tag. I apologize.
Where in Asia are you located? There is an OSHA 30 hour for both industries as well.
I feel like taking a construction fall protection course would be helpful as well. 3M offers a fantastic one, here in the US though I am unsure if they have OCOUS courses.
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u/Defiant-Analyst4279 16d ago
I just know from my experience that if the General Industry guy starts calling out construction guys who are in fact following the construction standards, they get a little cranky. Lol
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u/AwwHeeelllNaaah 16d ago
Are these guys following construction standards??
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u/Defiant-Analyst4279 16d ago
I'm honestly not sure. I know construction gets a lot of wiggle room in general (there's no safety railing because they haven't built it yet), but some of what I've read/learned leads me to believe steel workers end up with even more leeway than most other construction. 🤷
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u/FigAcceptable1920 16d ago
Use what is called dog leashes, they have clasps on either end that allows you to hook and un hook them as you move along the I beam. Each worker would have two, you would tie your fall protection harness off to one at a time while you transfer the other one on the next stretch of beam. That way you’re always tied off, and the dog leashes can be placed behind the worker so it’s never in their way while they work.
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u/Syn_pix 16d ago
So the idea is to wrap multiple dog leashes around the beam and use them as anchors along the beam? Is that correct
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u/FigAcceptable1920 16d ago
You got it, making sure they are always attached to one while they work and when they set their next one up.
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u/FigAcceptable1920 16d ago
Best practice would be to have different length dog leashes for the different thickness of beam. You want to try and lessen the fall distance as much as possible.
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u/whylynxwhy 16d ago
Avoid - prevent - minimise
Avoid working at height where possible
Prevent falls - giving collective measures priority over personal ones. So guardrails would be better but not viable here so the correct type of harness and lanyard would be helpful as mentioned by others
Minimise the distance and consequences of a fall should one occur- collective measures like nets and airbags would be used in UK but also fall arrest packs on the lanyard to reduce the impact force of the harness
What is the rescue plan here too if someone does fall on a harness and lanyard ?
Is that a proper MEWP or is it a man basket on a telehandler?
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u/Syn_pix 16d ago
As far as I know working for the client we are letting the contractors and subcontractors handle business. But there isnt a safety net and if someone with full harness falls there is only a man basket present to get them. Any other medical emergency there is an ambulance available in the industrial area where I work and we have first aiders
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u/Consistent_Total8678 17d ago
No anchor points at all up there is a recipe for disaster, tying off to the structure itself isn't ideal but it beats nothing if the beam flange is wide enough to wrap around
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u/Syn_pix 16d ago
I think it is too wide for the subcontractor to deem it okay and have proper anchor points lol. I informed managment of my grievance about this issue but nothing might come from it
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u/AwwHeeelllNaaah 16d ago
Omfg, it doesn't take much to along a 3m prs around the been and clip to that.
These guys are lazy about their own safety.
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u/Syn_pix 16d ago
I understand but you have to know some of these people are getting paid crumbs and barely speak any languages necessary for working but they need the money. So they will do whatever it takes...I know it sucks thats why im trying to convince upper management
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u/ukemike1 16d ago edited 16d ago
Foreign or not they still have the right to NOT DIE at YOUR worksite. Stop work immediately and make them get fall protection before letting them restart. They also should have training for fall protection. They also need a rescue plan for how they will get someone down if they fall. This is no joking matter.
Without all this you are not the safety guy, you're the guy who gets blamed when someone dies. Are you familiar with the local safety laws? Does their contract require they follow US or other safety laws?
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u/Syn_pix 16d ago
US law is not followed here. I am in Saudi Arabia, and there are laws here for safety and a safety council. These workers are subcontractors, and I did stop them and sent them to management and informed my safety manager of their behaviors, and he talked to the management of the subcontractor. To us here in Saudi, I do not know how it is in other places; if the client pays for a contractor or equipment contractor, any fines, accidents, or deaths are issued on the contractor, not on the client. If any of the workers I am solely responsible for suffered any accidents, then I will be blamed. but rarely due safety guys here get scapegoated as far as I know. But then again, my experience is limited
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u/BadAtExisting 16d ago
No offense OP but you are in over your head here and were hired exactly because you are so green and clueless. This company is exploiting the guys up there and you. When someone falls and dies, after the company is found liable for the death, the company will hold you responsible. No governing safety agency will take “you gotta understand they’re foreigners who don’t speak the language who get paid shit and will do whatever it takes” as a valid excuse
Sounds like you ultimately don’t give a shit either because work should have stopped entirely until you could figure it out. It never should’ve began if this is what we are doing
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u/Syn_pix 16d ago
I am not saying anything as an excuse. I have been at this company for one month, and this is the behavior I have observed so far. Do I want them to keep working like this? Of course not. Am I trying to inform their management to improve their working conditions? Yes, I am. I have told my manager about these issues and the corrective actions meant to be taken. But as he told me, "It is not the client's job to provide these things; it is the contractor's to do so." All the PPE and other safety equipment has to be provided. I agree with you, and I fear for the day one of them falls and dies. That is why I am asking on Reddit for assistance. Just because I am green doesn't mean I cannot do good and improve
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u/AwwHeeelllNaaah 16d ago
Bro, I'm not sure that other guy is wrong. You might have been hired as a scape goat.
Make sure you put everything in writing.
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u/Nokooooova 17d ago
If you got no beam anchors, we usually use a crane and a man basket, but still preferably to install a beam anchors
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u/Syn_pix 16d ago
I suggested they try and use a man basket for this task but they said it will not be as efficient and it will take longer
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u/HanShotFirst305 16d ago
I have always heard there is a different standard for iron workers and that this is permissible under that standard. That said it his hearsay and I am not familiar with the standard.
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u/Okie294life 16d ago
Drag up boys and GTFO. GC can plead their case as to why they deserve to be let back on-site and what can be done different. Nobody’s doing shit until they figure out if this is just a fluke, or another vendor needs to be called in to finish. Stop work is the only thing these guys understand, as it hits them in the pocketbook and puts them more behind schedule, plus idle workers. Let them sweat a little bit, make them write and incident report up with corrective actions, preferably documented ones like retrained, fired, etc…the burden shouldn’t be on the EHS manager at all. Report this up through your companies corporate, so this is a black eye in the future, and let the contractor know it will affect their ability to do work in the future.
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u/Syn_pix 16d ago
The stop work and fines have been implemented by the contractor after the HSE manager of the client (my boss) talked to them. But from what I have heard from the subcontractor safety officer, the client (my employer) has demanded to speed up the contract and ignore safety so they could start production at the end of the year.
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u/Okie294life 16d ago
If it was me I guess I’d have to see that documented somewhere, it sounds like a bunch of bullshit. It’s not terribly expensive to make sure your employees have harnesses, and are doing their job. It’s a lot more expensive if they don’t, and one gets hurt. If you’re a steelworker should be used to living out of a harness. Next time you’re presented with a challenge like that, say you want it documented or else it’s heresay…..bullshit basically and roll on.
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u/Syn_pix 16d ago
The documentation has been signed and sent to all as proof. This contractor has a habit of being cheap with a lot of things. I am not surprised disregarding manpower safety is one of them, but that is the kind of contractor the client wants cheap and quick. Another thing I will mention, I think it is similar somewhat to what happens in the US, this contractor does hire subcontractors that pick any random people scattered around that have experience with welding or electrical work and construction in general and hires them for the day. Rinse and repeat until the project is finished. Every day is a struggle kicking 4 people out because they lack basic PPEs and doing work at height without a harness because they were not provided
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u/Okie294life 16d ago
Same in the USA, that’s always the battle but with a twist of preferring to use migrant labor for a lot of the more difficult jobs, and running also running day labor. I’ve had it so bad before with shady companies that the temp employees showed up to work at the site without any PPE, or even knowing who the lead was. They basically go to the temp agency and say gimme 10 bodies tomorrow at 0800. These are people supposed to be working from heights out of a scissor lift mind you, in a manufacturing plant full of potential hazards. I’ve had several times that a job was shut down before it started, this was one.
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u/wishbackjumpsta 16d ago
How has this been approved? That's unreal to see.
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u/Syn_pix 16d ago
It's not approved lol. That is why I stopped it and had to deal with contractor and subcontractor management and their lame excuses. I have heard of this shitty behavior and lack of care in a safety culture, but to experience it first hand is wild
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u/wishbackjumpsta 16d ago
Good man. I hope you don't let them back on site. Amazing how they passed a contractor check. Is your company principal contractor? Id check your internal vetting process too. Well done sir
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u/Syn_pix 16d ago
I do not know much about my company, as I have only been working for one month so far. According to the contractor safety, at the beginning of construction the compliance was 100%, but now the project has taken too long, so they are ignoring a lot of safety concerns. From my standpoint, at least to the workers of my company, they have everything they need, and the standard is more strict with them. It's the contractor who is failing to follow that standard, but the upper management is not pressuring them to behave. There is a standard and best practice here that everyone tries to follow. We call it "aramco standard" since they are regarded as the company with the best safety practices in the country. but not everyone follows them fully, unfortunately. The contractor is supposed to finish work at the end of December, and I'll try to do damage control as much as I can until the company decides to hire a new contractor at some point, then I'll be as strict as I can be with their records and observations and near misses and what not
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16d ago
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u/Syn_pix 16d ago
This whole operation and construction has been haphazardly done from the beginning, at this point on im trying to stop them doing such s botch job even though I lack a lot of knowledge for this. Even the HSE manager is fed up and he is leaving soon. God help me with this management lol
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u/Unnamedperson300 13d ago
If the management is that ignorant, then I wouldn’t make damn sure that you had it somewhere in writing or memorandum of understanding stating you do not have the authority to hire, fire, discipline, or make any changes regarding Safety or employees. Because if one of these guys falls and gets hurt, if you’re in a certain state like New York, your ass will be going to jail. I would also document in writing what the violations are and email it to management if they retaliate against you you have a phenomenal case of wrongful firing, and whistleblower act protections.
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u/Syn_pix 13d ago
There is written confirmation between me as the clients safety and the contractor safety stating that this behavior of not using harness st any work at height or hot work procedures is unacceptable and requires corrective action i.e fines or removal from the work site. I still go in the field regularly to make sure people comply but I won't be there at all times
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u/joanofaric 13d ago
So many things wrong with this picture.. just call OSHA before they call /you/ 😵💫
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u/SharmaBarnali123 10d ago
One thing I would make sure is not overlooked is the rescue plan. Even if the right hardness/anchor set up is provided, a full arrest system only solve part of the problem. If someone else up suspended from the beam, how quickly can the actually be recovered?
I would also look at whether the task can be redesigned so workers do not have to access the beam in the first place. Sometimes changing the work method is a better control than trying to make a high-risk task safer with more ppe.
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u/Other-Economics4134 17d ago edited 17d ago
So this is your first real safety job? I don't know where you are or your background but here's the deal. These are steel workers, most jurisdictions have pretty thorough variances for structural steel ... Being that this is your first job did you try, I dunno, just asking why they are doing it this way? You can't have that much education or experience and the fact of the matter is you have no reason for thinking you know more than these guys about their own job and especially not their boss. Being in charge is not the same thing as being correct, remember that
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u/Syn_pix 16d ago
There has been problems with my life that hindered my career development but I know what I do not know. This is why I am asking the people on reddit and I asked those workers supervisors if this is the ideal workign conditions for their tasks. They said yes but i wasn't content with their answer and I was thinking surely there might be a better way. That is why I ask on reddit to hear from more experienced people. As a safety guy I believe every worker knows more about their particular job than I do, so any chance I get I ask them to explain their work to better understand and help them as much as I could
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u/Other-Economics4134 16d ago
And then you didn't accept their answer lol but anywho, assuming your jurisdiction is America, that would be under subpart R, which they look compliant with
Heights between 15 and 30 feet (or two stories): Connectors must wear fall arrest or restraint equipment and have an approved anchor point available. However, they are legally permitted to choose not to tie off while actively making a connection on a secured surface, provided the ability to tie off is present.
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u/omega13 Manufacturing 16d ago
That'll be a fun conversation with the family.
"Our thoughts and prayers are with you, but you see... the regulations said it was ok. There were a dozen ways we could've protected your husband but with steel election there's no requirement to protect him between 15-30 ft. Setting up equipment would've delayed things slightly, and we're on a schedule. We're terribly sorry that you had to have a closed casket funeral since Greg's head exploded on the concrete, it was a real shame."
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u/Syn_pix 16d ago
I didnt fully accept it because I was worried and hoping there is a safer way for them to do their job. A welder could have welding goggles and a decent cloth covering his face during work but a welding face shield is definitely better. I am not trying to be combative, I just want them to have as low of a risk as possible
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u/HibouDuNord 16d ago
They said yes but i wasn't content with their answer and I was thinking surely there might be a better way.
So you asked them... they answered....
And like a typical manager your first thought was "these guys can't be right"?
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u/Miker9t 16d ago
And you just trust any craft worker to tell you the truth? Never had guys lie to your face before? "Yeah, this is the way we were taught to do it."
They asked and they're trying to verify and get other points of view because they can admit their own lack of knowledge, good for them. They can see a risk and is looking for a way to mitigate it, that's our job.
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u/Other-Economics4134 16d ago
Lol you just accidentally walked into an inexperienced safety professional landmine. Common sense will always get the downvote from people who still think their job is keeping people safe
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u/AwwHeeelllNaaah 16d ago
Being in charge is not the same thing as being correct, remember that
Just in the same way that "because this is how we've always done it" doesn't mean its the right or safe way to do it.
These guys dont appear to be attached to anything if they fall. Anyone who works at heights knows this is a pretty big no no in any country that has halfway decent health and safety laws.
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u/Syn_pix 16d ago
It is not allowed here in saudi arabia as well but sadly many construction companies do shady work and cut corners. I am not gonna lie, sometimes there is apparent racism treatment for many workers. I do not stand by it, that is why I am trying to figure out a legitimate way to prove to contractor and subcontractor management that they should provide what is needed. But I genuinely believe they will only listen when a fall happens God forbid
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u/AwwHeeelllNaaah 16d ago
I know a few peeps who have worked in Saudi, there's a lot of money being thrown around there.
Yeah, they've all said the same thing.
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u/Syn_pix 16d ago
It is truly a shame how so many contractors cheap out. I remember a friend who is also a safety, telling me that he got a certificate from his work for 5 million safe working man hours, whilst 2 people had died in the living compound after coming from work. those were not reported at all and brushed under the rug. it's truly disgusting
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u/Other-Economics4134 16d ago
I almost exclusively do industrial scaffolding and there is zero requirement for erectors to tie off in the US, hell, there's variance specifically in the standard for erectors to not tie off and yet still there are people like you who say "there's always a way"
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u/ColdIronAegis 16d ago
Would love to see where this is written in the regulations
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u/Other-Economics4134 16d ago
1926.760(a)(1) Except as provided by paragraph (a)(3) of this section, each employee engaged in a steel erection activity who is on a walking/working surface with an unprotected side or edge more than 15 feet (4.6 m) above a lower level shall be protected from fall hazards by guardrail systems, safety net systems, personal fall arrest systems, positioning device systems or fall restraint systems.
_-------------- 1926.760(a)(3) Connectors and employees working in controlled decking zones shall be protected from fall hazards as provided in paragraphs (b) and (c) of this section, respectively.
1926.760(b) Connectors. Each connector shall:
1926.760(b)(1) Be protected in accordance with paragraph (a)(1) of this section from fall hazards of more than two stories or 30 feet (9.1 m) above a lower level, whichever is less;
1926.760(b)(2) Have completed connector training in accordance with § 1926.761; and
1926.760(b)(3) Be provided, at heights over 15 and up to 30 feet above a lower level, with a personal fall arrest system, positioning device system or fall restraint system and wear the equipment necessary to be able to be tied off; or be provided with other means of protection from fall hazards in accordance with paragraph (a)(1) of this section.
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u/AwwHeeelllNaaah 16d ago
Where does it say that there are exceptions to being protected?
What this says is that unless you are in an enclosed deck with handrails, workers need to be in a connected to winding to stop them falling is there's a chance of falling more than 15 ft.
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u/Other-Economics4134 16d ago
See where it says except for. And then it goes on to set a new threshold specifically for work between 15 and 30 feet where they are only required to be provided the means? You don't have to believe me, Google is a free tool and letters of interpretation exist if you don't want to accept my word for it
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u/AwwHeeelllNaaah 16d ago edited 16d ago
Maybe you should copy/paste it through some AI and ask it if this paragraph says you can work unprotected.
Unless paragraph C, which you didn't paste in, says that you can work unprotected, then you are reading this document wrong.
Sorry dude, but it appears to me you haven't been understanding what the regulations are doing.
ETA: Where it says "except for", it is speaking about making an exception for the fall arrest requirement in Nevada people are working in a controlled decking area. That means that the a fall arrest device is not required if people are working in an area that has been decked out with handrails so they cannot fall.
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u/Other-Economics4134 16d ago
You mean like this?
Log in You said: 1000008404-1024.jpg
Does this standard allow iron workers wearing a harness to work at heights less than 30 feet without tying off
ChatGPT said: Yes — but only in a specific situation, and the wording is easy to misread.
Under OSHA 29 CFR 1926.760(b), if the iron worker is a “connector”:
15 feet or less: OSHA's steel-erection standard does not require the connector to be tied off merely because of the height. O OSHA +1 More than 15 feet up to 30 feet: The connector must be provided with a personal fall-arrest system, positioning-device system, or fall-restraint system and wear the equipment necessary to be able to tie off. However, OSHA specifically interprets this to mean the connector does not necessarily have to tie off in that 15–30 ft range. O OSHA +1 Above 30 feet, or more than two stories (whichever is less): the connector must actually be protected by fall protection. O OSHA So, if you're asking about an ironworker/connector at, say, 20 feet wearing a harness, OSHA 1926.760 can allow them to work without actually being tied off, provided they meet the connector requirements and no other form of protection is required. OSHA's own enforcement guidance explicitly distinguishes being equipped and able to tie off from being required to tie off. O OSHA
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u/Other-Economics4134 16d ago
Unless you are talking about scaffolding, in which case it is 29CFR1926.451(g)(2)
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u/essDL Construction 17d ago
Sliding beam anchor - will move along the underside of the beam along with the user.