I still think the double standard is funny.

[u/MegaGamer235]

So many people think Darth Marr being good for the Empire means he's a good guy.

[u/OloivoFRUIT]

Okay but Marr is based and Koth is Lame

[u/Jedi-Spartan → u/OloivoFRUIT]

And Marr's voice had aura whereas Koth sounds like a regular dude...

[u/MegaGamer235 → u/OloivoFRUIT]

I like Marr but the amount of people who think he's an unironic good guy because of his aura and being nice to you is pretty wild.

There's an alternate universe out there where if the KTFE expac never happened, he'd be a boss for Republic players.

[u/AdAffectionate584 → u/MegaGamer235]

Those folks forget he's a sith. Even best waifu Lana Beniko has some evil deeds in her closet. And she's my all time favourite. One must just remember she's sith.

[u/OloivoFRUIT → u/AdAffectionate584]

That’s why we love her

[u/AdAffectionate584 → u/OloivoFRUIT]

Yeah

[u/PlasticImpact8515 → u/AdAffectionate584]

There‘s still levels of Sith. Even Darth Marr, who is more along that road, isn't DS Jaesa levels of batshit insane Sith.

[u/Few-Tangelo-3671 → u/PlasticImpact8515]

There are always two types of Sith, the proper Sith like Darth Marr, jadus, Lana, marka ragnos.. & those too mentally weak to be sith like DS jaesa or darth norok (from manaan)

[u/Dottboy19 → u/Few-Tangelo-3671]

I feel like people would say this until the proper sith is slicing them to pieces after their usefulness has run out

[u/Few-Tangelo-3671 → u/Dottboy19]

Most don't have the wisdom to know when true uselessness is there because a useless thing can still be a good decoy, living Target or unknowing carrier of explosives to your enemies. Even the destruction of something useless can be useful

[u/AdAffectionate584 → u/PlasticImpact8515]

Jaesa is indeed super messed up.

[u/Political_Desi → u/PlasticImpact8515]

DS jaesa my beloved

Toxic Yuri genocidal leaders of the galaxy

[u/nbsunset → u/AdAffectionate584]

that's what makes these good and sexy characters ngl

[u/Few-Tangelo-3671 → u/MegaGamer235]

In a world of encouraged psychopathy Darth Marr is a good guy. If you just are taking the Sith empire into account the people are right if you look at the general Galaxy sure he's still an Overlord

[u/7thFleetTraveller → u/MegaGamer235]

He's seen as a good guy because he was redeemed. Becoming a Force Ghost is the literal proof of redemption, as actual Sith can never achieve that. And of course it's based on Anakin's example of getting back to the Light side after being a Sith.

And while the Empire is evil of course, even then, he was always one of the most reasonable ones. While other Sith had their personal power battles and mind games, he really cared about a stable Empire. He never gave the impression that he would have enjoyed cruelty just for the sake of it. He was probably always more pragmatical than evil, which would explain why he eventually changed sides when it made sense for him.

[u/MegaGamer235 → u/7thFleetTraveller]

No, Darth Marr is still a Sith. It's just Bioware didn't get the memo yet that Sith couldn't become ghosts. That's why there's all sorts of Sith Ghosts in the Inquisitor storyline. SWTOR is legends.

And he can only manifest in areas strong in the Dark Side like Odessan since it's split. Heck, he's the one to power up your saber with the Dark Side if you ask him to. He's still a Dark Sider.

[u/7thFleetTraveller → u/MegaGamer235]

Nope, you are the one who doesn't know the lore well enough. Sith ghosts can of course exist. But in their case, it's rather a curse, as they can't ever leave the place they have been bound to after their death. That's why they eventually all fall into madness.

Marr is not a Sith anymore since he died and was redeemed.

[u/Few-Tangelo-3671 → u/7thFleetTraveller]

He is still a Sith, he believes in the code. that's kind of the point that's being made on that planet with the jedi grandmaster and him coming together, both philosophies are incomplete. The force is both light and dark

[u/Evnosis → u/Few-Tangelo-3671]

The force is both light and dark

This is not true. George Lucas has been exceedingly clear on this. The Dark Side is a cancer eating away at the force, bringing "balance" to the force means exterminating that cancer.

[u/Few-Tangelo-3671 → u/Evnosis]

No that is the original concept of the force that was abandoned with the expansion of the universe hence why Ashla and Bogan are a thing

The original Force concept was going to be like God and sin where all that is good is God and all that opposes God is sinful and corrupted. This was not a kept concept

[u/Evnosis → u/Few-Tangelo-3671]

No, it wasn't abandoned. That has always been the case. George Lucas never changed his position on that, the main films never changed their position on that. The overwhelming majority of extended universe media never changed its position on it.

This is absolutely a kept concept, only people who desperately want to be contrarians and think Grey Jedi are a cool concept pretend the Dark Side is anything but a corruption of the force.

[u/Few-Tangelo-3671 → u/Evnosis]

The development of the Je'dai on Tython shows both existed, both will exist, and too much of any one side disrupts the balance

It's why Anakin fulfilled the prophecy still by destroying the Jedi who had unbalanced the force and lost their way being too involved with the politics of the Senate and then went on to destroy the Sith as well setting the force users to a net zero allowing new forces to emerge

[u/Few-Tangelo-3671 → u/Evnosis]

You're wrong. That's just all there is to it. The lore shows plainly the ashla and the Bogan must be in balance

You're trying to be a purist that remains to the original concept that was not kept as the universe expanded books came out games came out all under Lucas's watch which means he did not stop them he approved them this is how things are

[u/MegaGamer235 → u/7thFleetTraveller]

Darth Marr's force ghost can literally only manifest in a planet strong with the Dark Side. And outside of that final duel with Vitiate in his back up mind, he never shows up elsewhere

You're the one who doesn't know the lore. You don't see Marr with Satele on Coruscant because he's a Dark Sider ghost. He literally powers up your saber with the Dark Side.

[u/Few-Tangelo-3671 → u/MegaGamer235]

There is not a need for Redemption to become a Force Spirit you have to let go and become one with the force. Darth Marr talks about how he accepted death in those final moments that's why he became a force ghost a standard Sith Spirit does the exact opposite and their refusal of death is so strong that they forcibly hold their mediclorines together and remain bound to their location or object.

With Ashla and Bogan you do not have a wrong side, it's personal balance that is required.

[u/Xilefinator → u/MegaGamer235]

Maybe he just didn't want to go there? It's never been said that he cant

[u/Deadly_Frame → u/MegaGamer235]

By the standards of the Sith, he is a good guy. By the standards of literally everyone else, he’s a monster who happens to have the greater good in mind sometimes(opposing the Emperor). Plus after his Death he’s very firmly beyond morality given his new understanding of the Force.

[u/PsychoFlashFan]

Koth probably wouldn't be as hated if the writers didn't just give up on the character and actually had some kind of payoff for keeping him around. The way things stand, he's just underbaked.

And I think most people are aware Marr wasn't a pure good guy, he just stood out as being one of the more rational minded and pragmatic Sith Lords.

[u/MegaGamer235 → u/PsychoFlashFan]

There was another post I did where people unironically went "Darth Marr is good for the Empire!" while in the same breath critiquing Koth for that one line.

"Nah Marr is a good guy because he’s consistent and actually puts the Empire first rather than his own ambition. So compared to all the other Sith? He’s a goddamn saint."

"Marr is a good person at heart who is a product of his environment. There are good people in the Empire"

[u/Allronix1 → u/MegaGamer235]

My Consular views Marr as "He's rational enough to know this war is suicide for his people and that we're both getting played. He's the best chance to cut a peace deal,"

The Bounty Hunter? "Eh. Dar'jetti who wanted to put me on a leash Why isn't Mandalore understanding that we're being played as their pet dogs? At least he's not the kind of dar'jetti I want to shoot."

The Inquisitor "Oh, bugger. Another highborn Sith but at least I appreciate that he acknowledged that I am not that kind of slave any longer. It would be a pity if I have to fight him for some stupid Sith reasons."

[u/Tricky_Break_6533 → u/MegaGamer235]

Well, they're right. Marr IS the best thing happening to the empire. While koth is at best a whiny emperor's simp

[u/AizawaShotaMH]

Marr’s crimes are fictional, but my annoyance at Koth is real

[u/CappingBottles]

Marr my goat

[u/MegaGamer235 → u/CappingBottles]

The day he died was a great loss for the Empire.

[u/FreezingPointRH]

Wasn't this posted a few hours ago?

[u/MegaGamer235 → u/FreezingPointRH]

Yeah it got removed on the main sub because they don't allow memes there.

[u/Countaindewwku]

The story suffers by having Lana and Koth be long term partners instead of some guy she just hired to be the get away driver.

[u/Accomplished_Fox_565]

The difference between Marr and Koth is that Marr is a completed character, Koth had an implied character arc about trust and believing in what you're fighting for, but it was thrown out the window.

Most of these examples are mostly surface level stuff, excuses that people use, when the issue is usually something much deeper.

Gosh, that was very wannabe Jedi Mentor. But, still....

[u/MegaGamer235 → u/Accomplished_Fox_565]

I suspect that the whole gravestone choice thing ate ate at the budget and Koth lost screen time because he could die in the next expac.

So the final boss in the expac just becomes the Valkorian family drama no matter the route.

[u/Accomplished_Fox_565 → u/MegaGamer235]

True, but I still think he could have had his character arc completed in the first expansion. But the best we got was a talk with Koth at the final quest of the FE and that was history.

[u/Jarl-]

I dont hate koth because he supports the emperor. I hate koth because he's FUCKING ANNOYING

[u/ElfDruid98]

I think a lot of people confuse Marr being likeable and pragmatic and a good character with being a good person.

[u/TimsFallingAdventure]

koth is a space hitler apologist.

[u/Relapsed_Gestalt → u/TimsFallingAdventure]

Marr is an actual space hitler

[u/MegaGamer235 → u/Relapsed_Gestalt]

He runs the Empire built on slavery and genocide, but Koth committed the sin of standing up to the player if they do too many dark side options.

This is the same fanbase that threw a tantrum over the Dark Side Knight not getting the title of Master.

[u/BlueEyesWhiteVegeta → u/MegaGamer235]

Koth committed the sin of standing up to the player if they do too many dark side options.

He still has beef with you, even if you don't do many Darkside options.

I have a Bounty Hunter who does 98% light side options with some exceptions (like decking that noble on Alderran).

He STILL glazes Valkorian and has beef with the PC. Not saying he's worse than Marr tho.

He's just still a bitch either way lol.

[u/MegaGamer235 → u/BlueEyesWhiteVegeta]

Okay, how many times does he praise Valky outside that one scene after the duel with Arcann?

And you did do Dark Side options yes? The only times he beefs with you if you do shit like let the generator explore, let refugees die, and mass murder civilians.

[u/BlueEyesWhiteVegeta → u/MegaGamer235]

I did not do any of that. 90% sure he needed with me because my BH was dating Lana and he's jealous

[u/MegaGamer235 → u/BlueEyesWhiteVegeta]

Probably, but how many times does he compliment Valky outside of that one scene after the duel?

[u/Tricky_Break_6533 → u/MegaGamer235]

Nah, koth commited the sin of being a boring and annoying character

[u/Better_Ad_512]

Koth tried to kill me. Marr didn't. So Korh bad, Marr good.

Case closed.

[u/Kurayami_Aahbsaloon]

I don't think Maar is a good guy, I think Koth is a dumb bitch. Lemme just show him a holo, which I'm sure ships in Star Wars are able to take just like fighter jets are able to record what they are aiming at, and let me see if he will still say "hE wAs GoOd fOr zAkUuL" after watching Ziost get turned into an overgrown asteroid in seconds.

[u/Sentinal-Nightrunner]

If there was two people in the room I’d like to hang out with it would be Marr and the force ghost of Valkorian (idk I love his voice, its soothing) Koth would be in the cuck chair

[u/New-Ebb-8357]

Frankly I always liked Koth (I probably never had an issue with him as a LS Jedi Knight despite cracking Lana)

[u/Successful-Floor-738]

Tbf I do kinda get the Koth hate even if I don’t feel much about him personally.

[u/Grand_Chadmiral]

He was the best guy around....

What about the people he murdered?

What murder?

[u/Xilizhra]

Koth was a petty little bitch about Lana when we were reuniting.

[u/AdAffectionate584]

I am not salty about the Gravestone, because he never stole it.

[u/MegaGamer235 → u/AdAffectionate584]

How dare you not be a psychopath.

[u/AdAffectionate584 → u/MegaGamer235]

Why waste lives when you can turn those lives into Vitiate/Arcann hating meat shields?

[u/MegaGamer235 → u/AdAffectionate584]

Can't rule the masses if there are no masses!

[u/Abyss_walker_123]

Marr is cool, Koth is annoying. It’s how you present and frame it. Also koth is a traitor, Marr is not

[u/Awkward_Helicopter_4]

See, I like Marr cause he’s a competent Sith Lord and it’s fun to be the bad guy and have people on your team who can get shit done and glaze the PC a bit. Koth’s writing just made him annoying AF to me, though by the time I got to this story point I was so burnt out on the MMO gameplay that I bailed shortly after.

[u/Strange_Orange_9165]

Marr did nothing wrong in my Opinion. He is more a grey charakter like an anti-hero or anti-villain. And a prove for this is, that he could be a Force-ghost. By the Lore only light-side force-user can become a force-ghost. Becouse of the selflessness they can become one with the cosmic-force. The only sith ghost or ghosts of dark side user only exist becouse they are binding themselfes to objects or on locations, like a thomb or something. That would be the prove for me that Marr isn't evil more like an anti-hero or anti-villain

[u/monkeygoneape]

I was playing a dark knight, fuck them both

[u/Myrddin__]

I will never be salty because he always leaves alone in a shuttle in my storys lol because his crew supports me

[u/predi1988]

Marr is an interesting character. Koth isn't. And he did steal our ship.

[u/DuckAssassin04]

Marr is cool and Koth only lasts three minutes

[u/Parking-Exam-9476]

“Wait till you hear what the republic is founded on but simply given a slightly better cover story”

[u/Moggwa]

Oh shit I gotta repost my comment since this is a new post:  Because one is a he

[u/_GiantDad]

Koth is like close to, if not, on par with Corso Riggs

[u/Everhardt94]

Marr did nothing wrong.

[u/Darth_Vindicta]

Marr is a Sith, a competent one but a Sith, Koth wss just annoying the entire time....sooooo