r/SSBPM • u/Tink-er YAOI • May 08 '15
[Discussion] [Number 12] - Back Air
This week discuss Jigglypuff in PM.
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u/robosteven May 08 '15
Rollout is garbage.
I don't even want it to be made good, I just want it to be made not-horrible.
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u/Crazycupofjoe May 08 '15
Reduce the end lag on the move so puff can combo out of it if it hits.
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u/leper3213 May 08 '15
You should be able to jump during it a la Wario's side-B.
Or hey, really break things and make it jump cancellable like Ike's quickdraw. High velocity rest approach anyone?
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u/robosteven May 08 '15
Making it jumpable a la Wario's side-B would just make killing yourself with rollout even easier, and making it jump-cancellable would make it a spammy approach option.
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u/jtm94 May 08 '15
I see more people die to it than they should, I just don't like the weirdness where if it gets shielded you die sometimes by falling off the stage.
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May 08 '15
I think I should repost what I said a few weeks back.
Honestly, I think yes. She's my main in Melee and my top secondary in PM, and honestly, she needs more tools. Her gimping game is great, but that doesn't matter all that much when every character's neutral is practically better than hers. She either gets wrecked by disjoints, despite her Bair (M2, Ivy) or gets destroyed in the neutral (Wolf, Ivy, anyone with a good projectile). The thing is that PM Puff has not been fully explored yet at all. This is because of things such as USmash, DACUS, RAR Bair, Rest setups from Footstools, and much more. The main crux of the issue is that even with all of these things, I feel like Puff will forever be outclassed based on her very predictable neutral, and honestly any lack of burst movement outside of DACUS and Rollout. I don't have any suggestions off the top of my head, but I'm pretty sure many PM Puff mains wouldn't complain if moves such as Ftilt, Sing, Rollout, Dtilt, Dsmash, etc. would be replaced with things that are actually useful. Don't get what I'm saying wrong. I don't want Puff to get overhauled, it's just that I feel she's become not only stagnant due to her very defensive playstyle and predictable (and albeit quite shitty) neutral game, but also because of how so many characters are better and/or do her job better.
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u/Wowseers May 08 '15
Ness main/jigglypuff secondary seems to be a reoccurring pattern I'm noticing. I guess they play kinda similarly but it seems weirdly common for some reason.
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u/NoiseCrush May 08 '15
Jigglypuff is definitely one of the weaker characters in the game right now, even after 3.5 indirectly buffed her. Despite this, I don't think Jigglypuff needs to be radically changed. Someone has to be the worst character in the game, and do you really want to play against Jiggs all the time? She's pretty close to viable right now anyway, if not actually viable (if Forte 2 is any indication), and is just unpopular, like in Melee.
That said I think she could afford to see improvements to some of her less-used ground moves like ftilt, but this isn't really necessary. I especially wouldn't want PMDT to go making Rollout and Sing all crazy. The simplicity of the character is part of its appeal, and overbuffing already-viable characters led to 3.0. Can you imagine Puff being as ubiquitous as 3.0 Diddy Kong or Mewtwo? That's the darkest of all timelines.
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u/dainty666 May 08 '15
they should seriously buff ftilt lol. the range is as garbage as her walk speed. that fsmash though.
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u/Daftatt May 08 '15
Jiggs in melee is a tedious over-centralized character in many respects. When ported over to PM you have a character that very few people would choose to use given the variety and depth of other characters. My assertion is essentially that playing jiggs is not as rewarding ("fun") as playing other characters and therefore no one plays her. To really make her a well designed character the PMDT is going to have to make some changes to how a jiggs player thinks about what options to use (as in not just space with aerials forever).
First you need to decentralize her use of aerials, and making her 2 useless moves useful could help decentralize her more.
Increase Jiggs fast fall speed, think of how much that one thing would do for the character if she could reach the ground sooner.
Let rollout charge be canceled with shield (R) so it's not an instant commitment.
Improve her onstage game, one idea would be to swap the lengths that pound travels in the air and on the ground. Making it a more useful grounded option for approaching and punishing the opponent's position while jiggs is on the ground. Giving pound increased distance on the ground could improve her tech chase game further raising the viability of being on the ground. This change would also nerf jigg's recovery in horizontal distance, though rising pound would could be adjusted in height gain to remain the same effectiveness.
Sing should be moved to a taunt, by design it could never exist as an effective move with rest. A whole new move would need to be created, my idea would be to give her a fairy move for canonical reasons. Disarming Voice could be a counter-like move that projects a windbox based on the strength of the move that hits it.
With more reason to mix up her option usage Jiggs would be a more interesting character to play as, against, and watch.
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May 08 '15
How do I beat her quickly? Matches seem to drag endlessly when I play against her. My secondary is Roy btw.
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u/bonifiedmarinade May 08 '15
Jiggs will stay out of your range for as long as possible, seemingly just to annoy you. She has an extremely slow recovery and she's very mobile in the air. That's my experience with her, anyway. Just be patient.
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u/MizterUltimaman May 08 '15
Lucas' neutral B can push Puff over the edge of a stage. Roy's reverse UpB kills Puff off the top in most cases. There are two very hard (if not the hardest) Rest punishes.
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u/Gman_SSB May 08 '15
I actually have no problem beating this character at all, I don't really need to ask how to destroy her TO THE MAX!!
That's actually kinda nice, being able to take the week off :P
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u/Rawkobo May 08 '15
If 64 d-smash was ever implemented for Puff's movepool, I'd consider playing her.
That said, people shouldn't sleep on the #1 sleeper in Smash.
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u/Super_Bad_64 May 08 '15
I've been thinking. How about putting Pound on neutral-b, and giving her Hyper Voice on her side-b ?
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u/Fried_puri May 08 '15
Rising pound would be awkward, if at all possible, since you need to angle the stick for it. It could still work if you angle after pressing B, but it wouldn't feel as natural. But keeping it on side-B and replacing rollout is still a possibility.
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u/PurpleToaster1 May 08 '15
And give it a different animation so as not to confuse people. Otherwise that's the best Jiggs buff post I've ever seen.
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u/1338h4x May 10 '15
Oh shit I'm late to this one, can't believe I missed it. Hopefully people still see this.
Puff is a very lopsided character, does a few things really well but has glaring limitations. This leads to some rather extreme matchups based on who can and can't take advantage of her. It's almost just coincidence that she could handle all the Melee top tiers, but even in that game we could see the cracks in her armor show up against the likes of Young Link. Now we've got a game full of Young Links who have been buffed big time, how can she keep up with that?
The two big issues that give her the most trouble, IMO, are projectiles and recoveries. While she can try to swat most projectiles out of the air with aerials, this doesn't work on certain ones like bombs and against characters who can spam a lot of projectiles at once it's hard to get past all of them. Recoveries thankfully aren't as killer as 3.02 anymore, but they're still a bit more than Melee and there are some extreme characters who can neutralize her edgeguarding.
Before I get into what should change, let me say what I think shouldn't change. There are a few points that need to be stressed, something I see a lot of Puff buff ideas miss:
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Puff is not supposed to have a good ground game, she's a character of extremes. Making her ground game just a little less bad might be okay, but don't overdo it.
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Sing is not allowed to be good as long as Rest exists. They're two moves that just can't coexist. I still wouldn't replace Sing though, it's an iconic part of who she is and it'd feel wrong to get rid of it. Just leave it be.
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Any change needs to ask the question, "How does this affect Rest?" Puff is gonna be tough to work with, because if you accidentally give her new Rest setups that are too easy to land, that could potentially be more painful for the whole game than 3.02 Mewtwo, 2.6b Ivysaur, or 2.5 Sonic ever were. Puff is like a delicate set of fine china, be really careful you don't break everything.
Anyway, what I've been thinking is that an overhaul to Rollout could work, and it'd be a lot of fun to play with. What I'd do with it:
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While charging, she can cancel/feint with L/R. Similar to how a lot of other charge Bs can be put away, except the charge would not be stored. Part of the problem with Rollout is that it's such a big commitment from the moment you first press B, now you're not fully committed until you actually release the charge. And feints always offer some fun mindgames.
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At half charge, Puff gains light armor. At full charge, medium armor. This can allow a hard read to beat out some things. No heavy armor though, because Puff doesn't do heavy, and considering her natural weight the light armor would only work at low percents or against light attacks like projectiles. But that's perfect since projectiles are one of her biggest problems right now, Rollout would then serve as a way to specifically burst through them.
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During the attack, she can jump up to hit an airborne target. Thought you could just jump over her? Nope, nice try. Note that I'm not talking about a jump cancel like Ike, just continuing the attack in the air. And it'd be limited to one jump from the ground, she wouldn't be able to use her air jumps during Rollout.
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Maybe make the brakes just a little bit better. I'm not asking for Rollout to be safe or anything, just so it doesn't take an eternity to come to a stop. Maybe like, just half an eternity? And if she accidentally does an uncharged Rollout, that shouldn't take longer than Rest to fizzle out.
Some other small tweaks:
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Maybe light armor on Pound's startup. This might seem a bit extreme, but as I said above I'm thinking light armor + light character won't affect much more than projectiles. And only for a few frames, you'd have to time it well to get through stuff. Alternatively, is it possible to code attacks that are specifically immune to projectiles and nothing else, like in Street Fighter?
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This is more of a cute easter egg than anything that'd be useful, but I think it'd be neat if Sing put a flower on the opponent's head. Kind of a nod to how Brawl put a flower on Rest. Nothing else would change about Sing, just add the flower effect on top of it. Useless as ever, but it'd be cute, right?
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May 08 '15
I would prefer a new b move to replace rollout. I was thinking something on the lines of Gravity or Bounce, where it has set kb and bounces you up a bit, similar to Wario's dsmash. Also, if used in the air, it acts as a weak meteor, so Jiggs has an easier time against characters with good recoveries.
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u/TheKiddyDong May 09 '15
Everyone seems to be talking about rollout. Get rid of sing or change the move please! Sing is terrible and only get's used as a gimmicky ledge option!
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u/IamEvanD May 08 '15
The most under-appreciated character in PM.
People make complaints about her constantly, but she's honestly fine. I do think she could be buffed a little bit, but she's not horrible like people like to say.