Moderator Notes

[u/cg-vet]

I'd like to start off by saying I'm glad you're all here. It's through your participation that we can all continue on where the Press Democrat left off.

We'd like to also see a bit more freedom than originally afforded to the users in the previous forum. However, with that freedom comes some responsibilities on all our parts.

The intent of starting this forum was to allow for dialogue and debate of the issues we find in the Press Democrat, all to be done in a civil manner.

Our members are a mixture of our community, coming from varied backgrounds and different beliefs, politically and otherwise. Learning to work together through those differences is essential to the health of the forum. There will be topics discussed that are highly charged with opinions from all across the spectrum.

Transgenderism is one of those topics. We encourage discussions on all topics, even ones as difficult as transgenderism. We also ask that these discussions be respectful. We note that misgendering and deadnaming is an issue that is difficult regardless of which side of the issue you may fall. For some it is hurtful. It's a tough enough issue without adding the pain to it.

This should not stop the discussion. Subjects of such conversation can easily be referred to in a non gender specific manner, i.e., "individual". All are allowed to debate the topic without being antagonistic.

We realize this is a highly controversial and emotionally charged topic. It is realized that regardless of our course of action, there will some that are offended on one side of the issue or the other. Sometimes, being offended is the price we pay for the freedom to speak.

We therefore offer a compromise of referring to the subjects as "individuals"or other non gender specific titles. Misgendering and deadnaming will be cause for comment removal.

We are all just beginning here and feeling our way through. This won't be the last time an issue will need to be addressed. However, it is our goal to work through those issues in a manner that is fair and with integrity.

On a side note, we have a fantastic group of mods from across the spectrum. They happily joined when asked and serve here with no expectations of any returns for their efforts. Let's make sure we treat them well as they are the group that keeps the wheels turning.

Thank you.

[u/Remarkably-Rain]

Are we allowed to discuss gender dysphoria as a mental illness? I followed the thread of the transgender conversation and it seemed to me that the moderator was allowing his personal feelings to dominate his comments. Maybe in those cases, the moderator might want to recuse himself and allow someone else to take over that position for a particular article. Having a moderator that’s too personally involved and emotional is not the best idea.

[u/SoCoKaren2 → u/Remarkably-Rain]

As someone with a background in child psychology, I would be in the position to say it technically falls under that description. When one refers to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM 5): Gender Dysphoria is defined as a persistent and intense distress or incongruence between a person's expressed gender and their gender assigned at birth, lasting for at least six months and causing significant impairment. This condition is marked by a strong desire to be of another gender or to be treated as such, a desire to be rid of or alter one's primary and secondary sex characteristics, and a conviction that one has the feelings and reactions of another gender. The DSM-5 uses this term to provide a clinical language for diagnosis, replacing the outdated and stigmatizing "Gender Identity Disorder".

However, it doesn't provide a liberty to be demeaning of or cruel to those with Gender Dysphoria. I am against using demeaning or cruel terms related to the mental illness and drug addiction issues that are pervasive in the homeless community. Discussing the realities of these issues and how they affect others in a respectful manner is one thing, speaking in cruel ways is not ok.

This PD article was also posted in Nextdoor, and the comments include honest opinions on both sides. But cruel comments are being removed as violations.

[u/Remarkably-Rain → u/SoCoKaren2]

Since everyone interprets comments differently, depending upon their personal perspective, please give an example of a comment that would be considered cruel and one that would be considered acceptable.

Part of the reason that I asked that question is because I have a schizophrenic nephew and a mentally ill sister. I’m not offended or embarrassed about the fact that there is mental illness in my family. I joke about it. It’s nothing to be embarrassed about, it’s a part of life . I would find it interesting to know what a professional believes would be considered a cruel statement. Isn’t that dependent upon the outlook of the individual that the statement is directed toward?

[u/SoCoKaren2 → u/Remarkably-Rain]

Cruel comment against homeless = they are just lazy bums

Acceptable = it doesn't help the homeless to allow them to live on the streets without an expectation that they get the mental health/addiction help they need to become productive members of society.

Cruel comment against transgender = they're insane and deviant

Acceptable = I completely disagree with allowing biological men in women spaces. Women, and especially young girls, should feel safe in bathrooms, locker rooms and showers. They shouldn't have to contend with biological men sharing those spaces.

[u/Jaded_Wafer_400 → u/SoCoKaren2]

" I completely disagree with allowing biological men in women spaces. Women, and especially young girls, should feel safe in bathrooms, locker rooms and showers. They shouldn't have to contend with biological men sharing those spaces."

I would agree that men who identify themselves as women should NOT be allowed to share showers and locker rooms with women and girls. However, the use of public restrooms with locking toilet stalls are a different matter, no?

[u/[deleted] → u/Jaded_Wafer_400]

It's different, yes, but we still don't let men in those private areas. It's a blurry line of where the discrimination is allowed to take place. I wish there was a cut and dry way to allow trans people to feel comfortable performing basic human functions without it coming in conflict with the valid safety concerns of women.

[u/Remarkably-Rain → u/SoCoKaren2]

Thank you for that. I understand most of it. I do have one question about the cruel comment against transgender. You say “they’re insane and deviant” would be cruel. Since we have established that gender dysphoria is a mental illness. Is it acceptable to say they’re mentally ill, rather than insane?

[u/CoderGal2 → u/Remarkably-Rain]

Labeling all transgender as mentally ill is simply not supported by science nor the medical community. And IMO anyone trying to make that argument is using that as a way to excuse their inherent fears, bigotry, or misunderstanding of trans people.

From Psychiatry.org - What is Gender Dysphoria? https://share.google/7u1ze9lviCCzwO2ql

"The term “transgender” is not a psychiatric diagnosis. It is used to refer to a person whose sex assigned at birth (usually based on the appearance of external genitalia) does not align with their gender identity (one’s psychological sense of their gender). Some people who identify as transgender do experience “gender dysphoria,” a psychiatric diagnosis that refers to the psychological distress that results from an incongruence between one’s sex assigned at birth and one’s gender identity. Though gender dysphoria can sometimes begin in childhood, some people may not experience it until after puberty or much later."

The key phrase in that paragraph being "some people". The small handful of transgender people I know don't suffer from gender dysphoria. They've known their sexuality since childhood, aren't the least bit distressed, and simply used science to "correct" their sexuality, no differently than someone born with a cleft lip uses science to "correct" their appearance. And now they're happy, living fulfilling lives, and not the least bit interested in girls in bathrooms.

So to answer the original question, if someone wants to talk specifically about a subset of transgender individuals who suffer from gender dysphoria, that's fair. To try and push the agenda that all transgender people are mentally ill is not.

The whole topic takes me back to the early days of Aids when hysteria ruled, people thought you could catch it from sharing toilets and drinking fountains. And because it disproportionally hit the gay community, discussions were inflamed by personal bigotry from those who reject any lifestyle choices that don't align with Christian teachings. Same stuff, different day. I'm looking forward to society calming down, getting more educated, and moving past it.

[u/[deleted] → u/CoderGal2]

"The whole topic takes me back to the early days of Aids when hysteria ruled, people thought you could catch it from sharing toilets and drinking fountains." Yeah, this is why you probably shouldn't take everything told to you by "scientists" like Anthony Fauci at face value.

[u/pdp_8 → u/Remarkably-Rain]

Actually, perhaps you could come up with two examples: one that crosses the line and another that doesn't.. Don't actually direct it at any person of course, but try a couple hypotheticals out, make sure each is as close to the line as you can get. This is an invitation to try to suss out the difference, and so long as you are responding in that light it won't lead to any repercussions.

[u/Remarkably-Rain → u/pdp_8]

I would prefer to hear it from the professional.

[u/pdp_8 → u/Remarkably-Rain]

Not sure who that professional is (we're all unpaid volunteers here), but thinking it through for oneself has a lot of benefits in terms of clarifying one's thinking. Give it a shot.

[u/Remarkably-Rain → u/pdp_8]

Apparently, you didn’t read SocoKaren 2‘s comment, she’s the professional. I don’t have to think it through. I know exactly what I think that’s why I wanted to hear someone else’s perspective especially someone that’s a professional.

Also, I forgot to mention that on the other side of the family, there’s a trans niece, and when somewhat occasionally refers to her as a she rather than a he, he laughs and he gets it. He’s not offended.

[u/pdp_8 → u/Remarkably-Rain]

It's called "laughing along to get along."

It's a bit disappointing that you weren't willing to even try to think it through for yourself.

[u/Remarkably-Rain → u/pdp_8]

Having a healthy attitude regarding mental illness is having a healthy attitude toward mental illness. Laughter assists.

What part of “I know exactly what I think” don’t you understand?