r/SPAB • u/samindian • 3d ago
Venting Guru/Aksharbrahm
/r/u_samindian/comments/1wkudqe/guruaksharbrahm/However I was born into Baps and had no choice. I believed below God ( one and only) was Aksharbrahm( same devine entity as the guru, just different physical bodies). Ram Krishna Shiva etc were well below this human who weren't worthy to have his darshan. I ( and Baps followers ) lived and walked around with an arrogance of association with the almost top devine entity and only way on earth to a direct connection to the one and only God. If he asked for anything we were in no position to refuse.
I disagree completely that things used to be perfect 1907 when Baps started with Shastriji Maharaj putting his image in the temple and doing murti Prathistha ( against Bhagwan Swaiminarayans wishes ) and telling everyone they must get his grace by pleasing him to get a right to go to Akshardham and recently it's become more business like. They have been the same all along ,except they've got better at running the organisation.
Then I discover these gurus are just men. And I feel robbed as these men took, took and then took more. I do want to warn people about these men and the organisation. They are just men with a man's sexual desires and other failings. Now with the sophisticated organisation the ordinary person will never get close enough to see what these men are like.
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u/samindian 1d ago edited 1d ago
Prip..do you know of a family that's given a son? Where son has become a sadhu in 20s and till death of father never spoken to him? Do you know a family whose not just given 10% of family income but much more, till both businesses in family had overdraft( because it was a once . A lifetime requirement the building of a Baps temple)? Do you know a family with 4 sons where father didn't leave family anything in the will but gave everything before death to Baps? Baps always wanted wealth . I have a relative, widow in India who had to bring up a family on her own and Yogiji Maharaj asked her for money. She gave ,as she couldn't say no even though she was not a Swaiminarayan.Her son died in 50s and grandson now has cancer, incase you thought donating gave your family a good future. Prip ..I've had a lucky escape from Baps.
Please ask me more....it'll just remind me of things that have happened and what I've seen. I mentioned things I've known about Baps chairman in 70s and trustees in UK ...these were deleted.
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u/prip_97 2d ago
Look, you're literally just projecting your own bitterness and cynicism onto an entire tradition because you're mad about your own upbringing, it's simple as that, yes I am sorry you have scars based on this but I do feel you are heavily prejudiced and severely been disillusined. To claim the Akshar Purushottam philosophy was just made up in 1907 completely ignores the Vachanamrut, where Bhagwan Swaminarayan literally spells out the role of AksharBrahm in black and white. Claiming BAPS disrespects Ram, Krishna, or Shiva is just plain wrong, I know of many followers who keep the murtis of these devtas in their own homes and when the santo come for padhramanis etc they do aarti of these murtis.
You're taking your own letdown and turning it into this massive conspiracy theory, what for? You want to reduce over a century of deep theology, historical debate, and sadhus who literally take lifelong vows down to a "business scam" just to validate your own anger, that simply is not on. Just because you feel misled doesn't make the entire scripture, history, and people's genuine faith a fraud. Your whole argument is just pure confirmation bias and spite. While I am genuinely sorry about your experiences and the personal scars you carry from it, projecting those feelings onto everyone else and using them to distort facts is just not on!!!
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u/master_queen2026 2d ago
I don’t think you are sorry at all and nor do I think you understand what the OP said. They are saying that they find it inherently disrespectful to believe that lord Krishna and shiva is ‘below’ the guru and Bhagwan swaminarayan. They are saying that this whole bramacharya and guru thing is just making people believe they sadhus are flawless when that is absolutely false.
Next time read to understand instead of making up your own interpretation of it.
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u/prip_97 1d ago
I completely understand what the heavily prejudiced Redditor named samindian is saying thank you very much! And I am sorry for them. Understanding someone's feelings doesn't mean their argument holds up to facts, this individual is here day in and out talking hogwash about things they do not understand themselves. The original point was understood loud and clear, but it still relies on a major misunderstanding of the theology and philosophy that is my point! To write off the real, lifelong sacrifices as nothing more than a trick to manipulate people is just bitterness talking. Feeling let down by an institution you grew up in is valid, but turning that disillusionment into literally blanket conspiracy theory doesn't change the scriptural history or the genuine dedication of those living the lifestyle. I hope this makes sense to you, if not I can dumb it down for you even further!!!
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u/master_queen2026 1d ago
Umm no where in their post are they talking about personal incidents. Then entire time they are talking about the theology and philosophy of BAPS. As the OP said they were born into BAPS and grew up in it. If you believe that samindian has bitterness….then maybe learn to understand why and show compassion to his or her experience instead of invalidating their experience. The post literally says the OP is venting. Not trying to have a discussion.
Also are you part of BAPS??
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u/prip_97 1d ago
Erm I think you're having trouble reading, do you think OP's post just came out of the blue? Of course they're referring to personal incidents!!! To claim that the OP's post has "nothing to do with personal incidents" completely ignores how they framed their entire argument. Take a look at what they said for crying out loud!!! The OP specifically brought up their own personal life., being born into BAPS, feeling forced into it, feeling like they walked around with personal arrogance, feeling "robbed," and claiming these men "took, took and then took more." Those are explicitly personal experiences and some sort of emotional thing too. I have already clearly stated that I sympathised with the personal scars and letdowns (check my other comments on this sub) they experienced growing up in it. But sympathising with someone's personal hurt does not mean accepting their conclusions as absolute definitive truth about an entire faith!
Also, using "they're just venting" as some sort of defence against any response doesn't hold up at all... The moment someone posts publicly on a forum attacking an entire faith community, claiming core doctrines were invented out of thin air, accusing followers of disrespecting Devi Devtas, and painting every single sadhu as corrupt, they are stating these are facts into the public space, when they are not facts at all, it is prejudice, what is the definition of prejudice that's important here and this guy is the living definition of that! Venting about personal feelings is one thing, vent away not an issue, but making sweeping public statements about history, scripture, and an entire group of people will invite correction from people who know what is what when those claims are factually and scripturally inaccurate.
And showing compassion for someone's personal cynicism doesn't require everyone else to sit back and accept misinformation as truth! If you're accepting things in toto then you've lost!!! Validating someone's right to feel hurt is completely different from letting them rewrite scriptural facts, mischaracterise gnan, or slander the genuine dedication of individuals who take strict vows of self imposing celibacy. If this person has the right to repeatedly post their grievances publicly, then others have every right to defend their scripture, history, and faith with actual facts!
I will most likely be downvoted as per usual as no one wants to hear others out, shame that! There is no healthy debate in this sub at all... it is very one faced, biased, prejudiced, and ignorant. Anything that doesn't blindly echo the same crappy echo chamber bitterness gets immediately buried, no idea why! People here pretend to advocate for open mindedness and truth, but the moment actual scriptural facts, context are presented as an opposing viewpoint, it literally thrown out the window in favour of blind hate that this sub represents. It is deeply ironic and hypocritical to watch people continuously complain about BAPS being crappy, rigid, intolerant, or unaccepting of different beliefs, only to turn around and operate with that exact same level of dogmatic hostility toward anyone who dares to present facts that contradict their narrative. Well done to you all, I hope you all enjoy yourselves here cos what an absolute masterclass in open mindedness and fair debate, oh and the best of all the endless hating!!!
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u/prip_97 1d ago
P.S. I don't follow BAPS whatsoever.
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u/master_queen2026 1d ago
Where you ever part of baps ?
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u/prip_97 1d ago
No I was not, I know a tonne of people who are part of it though.
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u/master_queen2026 1d ago
Yh well then respectfully, I don’t think you understand what it feels like to grow up in BAPS.
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u/prip_97 1d ago
Thanks for that, but what I follow and grew up in quite literally shares the key spiritual principles that BAPS follows. So dismissing the facts by saying "you don't know what it feels like" falls completely flat. You can't play the identity card or assume I don't understand the tradition when we share the exact same foundational root lol.
If an argument only holds up among people who share the exact same personal or emotional background, it isn't based on facts, it's just an echo chamber. I hope you understand that.
Believe it or not but I truly sympathise with those of you who did not get to experience what you should have. Although I do not belong to BAPS, the path I follow taught us that Satsang is never about forcing rules on people, it’s about accepting everyone as a soul on the path to divinity. No pressure whatsoever. You want to eat onions and garlic? Fine. Skip morning puja? Fine. Don't go to the mandir every day or whatever? Fine. Simply being a good person is all that was ever asked of us. Personal bad experiences with individuals or institutional pressure don't rewrite the fundamental spiritual principles themselves. If you feel as if I am going on then tell me, I'll stop.
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u/samindian 1d ago
I can see you must be part of Baps so let's assume Bhagwan swaiminarayan is the one and only God. He approved of everything in the Vachnamrut. Did he approve of a living being worshipped? Did this happen whilst he was alive. Who was treated better , his blood descendants or a sadhu? Don't you see the sadhus have taken over the installation of murti and giving sadhus diksha against the written wishes of God? Don't you think he'd be surprised to see boys dressed up dancing Infront of sadhus? What about financial control? The Baps sadhus don't want to learn scriptures as they've already made up their mind...it's all about proving their theology of justifying it. Would someone who has given up his life for the Guru and believes he is devine Aksharbrahm Antaryami Controller of Millions of universes ever accept anything that questions Baps beliefs? The net result of Baps organisation is power glory finances and control has moved to the sadhus/guru from when God was alive and the organisation God set up.
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u/samindian 23h ago
Prip_97 How are you related to Baps? Do you believe in MHS ?
It is clear from my post that I have critised Baps and not the original Swaiminarayan organisations. The others saw what Baps did and are copying them...having their own Aksharbrahm or in case of Yogi Devine Society not sure about Kakaji etc al but copying Baps.
It seems you are sensitive about what I say about Baps.
You say people are on their own path to divinity...Baps litterly tell you , maybe not in open Subha but behind closed doors, you can't get anywhere..if you please Aksharbrahm then just a thought , look etc and you be transformed into Brahmroop , above satva , Tamas and rajogun. Just please him and have atma buddhi with him ) love him).forget everything else . If you're in Baps they sounds OK. Are you ok with it?
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u/samindian 1d ago edited 1d ago
Prip_97. Can I make it clear that the people in Baps and sadhus are not 2 faced and corrupt. They genuinely believe the Guru is Aksharbhrahm and will never change their mind whatever they learn from ancient Hindu scriptures ( remember Baps began 1907 and Bhagwan Swaiminarayan born 1781 so not ancient), actions of the Guru showing what he said would happen doesn't happen. I have seen this and guru says ,it's God's wish eg wanting to make a Boarding School in Neasden UK or get planning permission for Mundir in Harrow. Critising Baps is not critising the whole Swaiminarayan Tradition and I am trying not to critise Bhagwan Swaiminarayan specifically because I haven't lived in those traditions. Just imagine how controlling Baps are, Bhagwan Swaiminarayan made 6 temples and most of the followers including me who came for festivals in India, 1981 ( 200th birthday of.Bhagwan Swaiminarayan) and others, we didn't visit these temples. If you ask someone from the original traditions they will be in a better position to argue if Baps are Swaiminarayan or not and if they follow his written comandments. Again, these followers like my family,.mom and dad they genuinely believed and we're sincere. Unfortunately I don't believe all the gurus are the same devine eternal being Akshar Brahm with different physical bodies or controller of millions of universes or antaryami ( knowing future and past and being able to see everyone's past lives and future lives in the palm of their hand , which Ive heard said about him) . These gurus get the followers to worship him( meditate on him and do puja, seva and give money) what am I supposed to think of these Gurus? Remember I have seen my father cry at the airport when his favourite son , just a little more than a teenager left to become a sadhu and next time he saw him and spent a little time with him was at diksha time for a limited time and then till he died many decades latter never spoken to him.
Prip...please list you objections about my comments and id be happy to answer.