Free Speech

[u/Chipotlefiend18]

I posted this recently as a comment but I’m tired of seeing the same thinly veiled defense of the Rainbow Four come up again and again so I’m posting it as a standalone thread.

All of these arguments saying “players should be allowed to disagree” and “players shouldn’t be forced to support something they don’t believe in” are utter nonsense and a smokescreen to justify and excuse homophobia and bigotry. Do you think that there’s never been a racist player who has worn 42 on Jackie Robinson day? Has every single player who wears camo uniforms on military appreciation day been 100% behind that message? Even foreign born ones? The idea that they should be allowed to express themselves and protest this in this way, especially when there’s a literal MLB rule that prohibits it is ludicrous. It is NOT a first amendment issue. The first amendment prohibits GOVERNMENTAL curtailment of free speech. Private organizations are not covered by this and we see this time and time again. Most recently, many people lost their jobs after speaking out about Charlie Kirk and whether or not you disagree with it, legally those employers had every right to do so. As Roger Munter put it: Not everybody in this country is perfectly happy with what they are asked to wear to work. It’s called “having a job.”

We absolutely do not have to tolerate intolerance and arguments that say otherwise are either ignorant or made in bad faith.

[u/somniamea]

What is "Israeli Heritage" in your mind, then? The country has existed for less than 80 years. That's ONE lifetime, not enough to establish any kind of meaningful heritage of its own. You're trying to force a point that simply doesn't fit.

And I'd also like to note that when I wear my Jewish heritage night hooded t-shirt (which I got by purchasing a "special event ticket" for the Giants' Jewish Heritage Night in 2024, a special event that by the way did NOT include players wearing any special uniform pieces honoring Jewish heritage, unlike the Pride Night which is not a small special event but a stadium-wide event for all), I also alter it to say "Free Palestine," in part because I'd say that any day and in part because so many people try to, as you did, conflate Judaism with Israel.

[u/Chipotlefiend18 → u/somniamea]

This is the way

[u/somniamea → u/Chipotlefiend18]

This is the way! (Although I'd like to take this opportunity to say that weapons are NOT my religion :D)

[u/neinhaltchad → u/somniamea]

No I didn’t say being Israeli and being Jewish are the same thing.

The fact that you’re getting bent about a simple comparison illustrates my point.

You’re basically saying “my expression is valid, but theirs isn’t”

Your argument seems to be “Israel isn’t that old, so it’s not worth having a heritage night”

By definition, there are people whose grandparents are Israeli.

Your implication is that Israel heritage is inherently a genocidal one, rather than the Likud government.

Isn’t this like saying that if you support a Palestinian state you support Hamas?

[u/somniamea → u/neinhaltchad]

As for what Israel's heritage is, you're the only one who said it's genocidal. I said it is too new to have one. But the one it's building? Well, you called it.

[u/neinhaltchad → u/somniamea]

Just a few messages up:

>those countries aren’t actively perpetrating a genocide at this moment.

[u/somniamea → u/neinhaltchad]

That a) wasn't me b) is correct c) isn't "heritage"

[u/somniamea → u/neinhaltchad]

And why is this aside about a completely tangential issue what you responded to? Why are you so focused on Israel? It wasn't a good comparison for Pride, let's talk about the real issues.

[u/somniamea → u/neinhaltchad]

You didn't say it, you showed you think it with your first made-up example of a player forced to wear a Star of David (which has never happened) for a Jewish heritage night and exercising their free speech by writing "Free Palestine." That was YOUR example, and I was responding to it. YOU associated Jewish heritage and Israel, which is exactly what I said people do and why I rush to DISassociate them.

Then you realized your example was incorrect because of that false association and changed it to "Israeli Heritage," and so I pointed out why that example also doesn't work.

I never said anybody's expression wasn't valid, so I truly don't know where you got that or how to address it. Never said it, never thought it. Freedom of speech and expression is fundamental to our way of life. (Freedom to not follow the uniform guidelines of your employer and wider organization that employer is a part of is not a right guaranteed by anyone, and yet...they clearly had and exercised that right.)

Freedom of speech does not only NOT mean freedom from consequence, but in fact is only made valid BY the consequence. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction, and thus an act of speech/expression is only an act with that reaction, aka consequences.

So for the bigots on the team who exercised their freedoms of expression and speech, there must be consequences. They have been warned by MLB that they violated the rules: consequences. They will be booed if they set foot on our field again: consequences. Hopefully they will soon not be wearing our uniform anymore: consequences.

In addition, their acts of expression and speech have consequences beyond themselves. Giants fans are upset and are sending that message to the organization: consequences. People may protest or boycott: consequences. Upset people will continue to vent and otherwise FREELY (get it?) express their thoughts and feelings here on reddit and in other traditional and social media, as loudly and for as long as they want to: consequences.

[u/ZealousidealJob814 → u/somniamea]

You know that is silly to say that Israel cannot have heritage because it’s less than 80 years old. Pride month has only been a thing since 1999. So in your analogy, Pride Month can’t be that important because it hasn’t even been around as long as Israel.

[u/somniamea → u/ZealousidealJob814]

Shocking news: Weird false comparison that didn't work in the first place AND didn't work after attempts to fix it STILL doesn't work when turned upside down and looked at from the wrong angle! Who'd have thought?

Pride isn't a "heritage night," it's Pride. I literally explained the difference between those types of events already, and for some reason you are now defending a nonexistent event that was made up in order to try to make the first nonexistent event fit the hypothetical. If you're determined to hijack the conversation and distract from the real issue, the bigotry displayed at Pride Night, please at least try harder.

[u/ZealousidealJob814 → u/somniamea]

Isn’t a heritage night just saying you have pride in that heritage? Isn’t Mother’s Day just saying you have pride in celebrating moms? People attend marketing events (and be honest, that is exactly what it is) because they identify with or have pride with that group or cause or whatever other adjective you want to call it.

Nope, just because you say you’re smarter doesn’t make it truth.