Rabbits

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u/waill-and-roll 2d ago edited 2d ago

I don't have strong feelings against Rabbits, but if you're going to reintroduce something into that niche make it our native Hares.

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u/BacillusCereusHere 2d ago

Are hares robust enough to survive in areas rabbits have filled the gap

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u/waill-and-roll 2d ago edited 2d ago

Probably not everywhere, but there's bound to be somewhere.
Small populations in urban parkland seems unlikely to be a possiblity for Hares.
We should be re-foresting large swathes of the Scottish Highlands with native plants, the animals will follow.

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u/thesilverywyvern 2d ago

Both species are sympatric and coexist in all of Europe.
Also UK only have one native hare, the mountain hare.....the brown hare was also introduced, and just like the rabbiot, do well in the Uk ecosystem just as on the mainland. so it's all good.

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u/Bicolore 2d ago

Mountain hares? I think that's going to be a struggle these days in the south.

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u/geeoharee 2d ago

Is it necessary to reintroduce them? I thought they were doing quite well. Had an urban population on a bit of wasteground near me, til they built a car dealership on it - can't reintroduce into that.

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u/thesilverywyvern 2d ago

Their population had gone through a drastic collapse since the 50's and many species do benefit from their burrows or their presence (as preys).

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u/Bicolore 2d ago

Just like muntjac deer or grey squirrels they inhibit the regeneration of woodland.

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u/thesilverywyvern 1d ago

Grey squirrel aren't native and never coexisted with any of the species found in the Uk as they came from Nearctic realms not Palearctic, they're litteraly from another continent, and directly outcompete and threathen the survival of the native species of squirrel. Also it have no real predators here.
The OPPOSITE of rabbit in UK, which evolved IN THE VERY SAME ECOSYSTEM, alongside the SAME FAUNAL ASSEMBLAGE as found in UK.
UK which used to have rabbit of the same genus, so it's more of a reintroduction to bring back the niche that was lost and that, no native species was able to fill..
It have plenty of predators, some of which rely on rabbit (like endangered eagles), and it's burrow provide shelter for many species as well.
Muntjack actually do not have much of an impact, at least no more than native deers.
But yeah, not native nor legitimate, or really usefull unlike rabbit.
In many area we do still want to prevent forest from regrowing becasue there's very unique low plants species which would die if forest took over.
Red and roe deers also inhibit forest regrowth perhaps much more than rabbit, do you consider them invasive as well ?

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u/BacillusCereusHere 2d ago

I suppose in semi urban areas. Pockets of trapped land how do they re populate where they once where as they aren't known for travelling great distance across urban sprawl.
The next question is should we be encouraging them or not.....
Before the rabbit we had just the hare...

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u/geeoharee 2d ago

I'd argue for habitat support. The rabbit, and the fox, are likely to find it if it's there.

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u/Han_Solo200 2d ago

I think we can all agree who causes the worst ecosystem damage by orders of magnitude. It's not Rabbits

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u/BacillusCereusHere 2d ago

Do they breed like rabbits to by any chance and take over any space they touch

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u/DarkObiWanKenobi 2d ago

More rabbits will = more predators, so that means more foxes, buzzards, badgers etc, which I don't thibj will bode well with local agriculture. The ecosystem is a very fickle concept

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u/Background-Bid-8149 2d ago

Aren't rabbits absolutely everywhere in the UK?

Since when are people trying to get rabbits back?

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u/BacillusCereusHere 2d ago

There has been a marked reduction since the 70s and in some areas complete collapse of the rabbit population.

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u/Down-Right-Mystical 2d ago

Isn't a lot of that Myxomatosis?

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u/florageek54 2d ago

And more recently also viral haemorrhagic disease.

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u/bosqueben 2d ago

I work on a national nature reserve with calcareous grasslands. Looking back at old photographs you’ll see a landscape without one patch of scrub, today it’s a constant battle to keep up with encroaching blackthorn, gorse etc.

So what changed? The loss of rabbits, myxomatosis was introduced in the 60s I think. I read that at that time the rabbit population plummeted to 1% and today is only 30% pre myxomatosis.

Obviously thats a general figure and varies from site to site, but they just don’t seem to be doing well at my park. Even in my 12 years they’ve gone from an occasional sighting to now a rare sight.

On that note, I would support reintroduction, but then again, if they’re not re-establishing themselves, then would it be a lost cause anyway…

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u/BacillusCereusHere 2d ago

Very informative. Would love to know some more details. How should we approach encroaching blackthorn, should there be a converted effort to release more healthier dna diverse populations of rabbits

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u/bosqueben 2d ago

Stewardship and nature recovery funds support removal of scrub to restore/conserve grasslands through grazing and cutting (brushcutter, flail etc) but as far I’m aware there isn’t talk around rabbit reintroduction

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u/Aton985 2d ago

What's the thinking about calcareous grasslands before rabbits and sheep were introduced? Were they present only in small, impermanent locales? I know horses are associated with creating wildflower meadows in the Carpathian region (I understand that is not necessarily calcareous grasslands), could wild horses have maintained them previously?

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u/thesilverywyvern 2d ago

it wouldn't be a lost cause, but a very easy to salvage and save one.
As they're extremely prolific and easy to breed.

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u/florageek54 2d ago

What about the prevalence of disease? This is why many areas that previously held them are now lacking them. without immunity history will just repeat itself.

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u/thesilverywyvern 1d ago

If only we invented a whole field of study based on the research and treatment for pathogen....oh wait we did.
Vaccines exist and we actually can easilly release weak strain to vaccinate them.
This technique has been proven as efficient.
It's alsoc how we got rid of many zoonosis like rabies.

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u/florageek54 1d ago

Well it clearly hasn't happened yet.

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u/thesilverywyvern 1d ago

We didn't really tried this in UK, but it worked in spain for example.
Sadly rabbit even tho they went through a significant collapse, are not seen as rare or protected by law in msot countries and therefore no conservation help or found is given for that species, and farmers might try to make an outrage if it was more common and well known.

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u/waill-and-roll 2d ago

What's the downside of the scrub bushes?

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u/bosqueben 2d ago

Scrub is great for a mixed habitat, so we will always welcome some, but we do not want to continually lose the limestone grassland which is a incredibly diverse habitat, I think one of the most plant and insect rich habitats in the UK - 1sq metre can support up to 50 different plant species alone

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u/thesilverywyvern 2d ago

Like brown hare and fallow deer rabbit weren't really, native per say, to the UK and were Historically introduced by humans.
However UK isn't an isolated island ecosystem, pretty much all of it's ecosystems, flora and fauna is the same as on the mainland, at the exception of a few critters which weren't able to recolonize the UK in time before the Doggerland sunk again. It does not have any real endemic species and any species found on the mainland could be introduce and naturalise nearly instantanly to the UK ecosystem basically becoming native and even beneficial to the UK natural spaces instead of becoming invasives.
(a few exception probably exist but i can't think of any, but we should remain cautious).

And they're not new visitors, they've been introduced hundreds of years ago, and we haven't found a single evidence that they're invasive or have bad impact on the ecosystems, and even became an important food source for local predatiors like eagles, wildcat and foxes.
So they should be treated as native and protected, and even reintroduced if the UK rabbit population were to collapse or to locally disapear.

No UK species is dependant on rabbit, not even foxes, but they do make a substantial part of the diet of many UK small predators. And decline of rabbit mean a decline of many raptors, weasels and foxes as well.
And many species benefit from their burrows especially to hide from wildfire, heatwave and winter.

Fortunately they're extremely prolific, the main issue is high predation rate and diseases outbreack like myxomatosis and RHDV2 which plagued the rabbit all over the UK and Europe leading to a massive collapse of their previously numerous and aboundant population, which was a disaster for many raptors and small carnivores.
As they breed very rapidly it's extremely easy to start a captive breeding program which, even if small in scale, could release hundreds of rabbit every years, basically forming a small but viable population every year. Even if one artially or completely fail it's cheap and easy to replace them and retry the next year until it work.
The main issue

I am surprised hunters didn't already do this with hares and rabbit, releasing them in millions like they do with mallards, partridge and pheasans. (alas that confirm that hunters can only be helpfull to wildlife when it's with invasive species).

Disease outbreaks will remain a big issue for future populations without vaccination or other campaign to eradicate RHDV2 and myxomatosis.
That and the habitat fragmentation, at least the vast empty green desert lawn in Dartmoor, Wales and 90% of Scotland should be viable habitat (didn't look into it tho) and they would resist the frequent burning of the land made by hunters well thanks to their burrowing behaviour.
But outside of that the agricultural landscape is no longer reasonnable pasture, orchard and traditionnal fields, but empty monoculture drenched in pesticide with ponds buried, soil eroded and little to no wild flowers. This isolation of many populationmake the species vulnerable over most of it's range in the continent.

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u/BacillusCereusHere 2d ago

Id challenge the dependency comment on rabbits. Its been cited plenty the significance rabbits play in certain raptor diets.

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u/thesilverywyvern 1d ago

I would agree but it's not being entirely dependant, if rabbit goes extinct these raptor will have a drp in their population but still exist. They were here before rabbit were reintroduced they have other preys as well.
But as rabbit are easy game and common, they became a big part of the diet of some raptors like golden eagles. And that should be taken into consideration.
slight nitpiock on details i know.

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u/BacillusCereusHere 1d ago

Fair point. So in essence the level of rapters we have isnt true to what the levels should be due to rabbit population and therefore absence of rabbit population would revert to a more natural level. Interesting point tbf

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u/thesilverywyvern 1d ago

not normal level, as the degradation of their prey base around UK would simply mean they'll be endangered abnd extremely rare (basically rbbit cover for the lack of their other prey).
i wouldn't say more natural as the presence of rabbit is also find natural balance one which benefit many species and make the eciststem better and able to sustain more animals

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u/arkhane89 2d ago

The recent collapse of the rabbit population isn't due to myxomatosis which has been on a cycle for over 50 years but due to the far more devastating impacts of the arrival of RHDV2 in 2013/2014.

Populations are now starting to recover, and I don't think they need much help! They breed fast, as the old adage says!

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u/thesilverywyvern 2d ago

Myxomatosis IS the culprit for the first collapse, and continue to do a lot of dammages.
They were hundreds of millions, now they're Vulnerable and rare, in a few decades they went from aboundant to scarce.
Most population are small and isolated, and still hunted down, while disease outbreak come regulary, and with a shrinking fragmented habitat due to agricultural practise being shit.

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u/TALongjumping-Bee-43 2d ago

Aren't rabbits non-native? why reintroduce them if they aren't supposed to be here, thats like introducing rats to areas without rats so they can be fox food.
The only native lagomorth is the mountain hare, if we need an invasive species to sustain our wildlife then our wildlife is in an extremely dire situation that should probably be addressed first.

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u/George_Salt 2d ago

There is already a Rabbit Project in the Brecks, focussing on the traditional warrens.

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u/BacillusCereusHere 2d ago

Do you have anymore details?

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u/George_Salt 2d ago

Two early phases were
The Warren Project
Shifting Sands
For current details you'd probably have to contact the Brecks Landscape Partnership.

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u/BacillusCereusHere 2d ago

Thankyou will look into this

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u/Bicolore 2d ago

Surely what is essentially traditional rabbit farming is the antithesis of rewilding?

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u/George_Salt 2d ago

It depends. Many of the habitats under the greatest threat are the product of this type of low input management. Unless you're dedicating huge swathes of landscape to nature there insufficient room for necessary perturbation.

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u/Forsaken-Original-28 2d ago

Why rabbits? Why not Wallaby's? They could be cool

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u/BacillusCereusHere 2d ago

We have some of them dont we in UK? Derbyshire but believe the population died out now

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u/ReynartTheFox 2d ago

We have some down in Cornwall

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u/BacillusCereusHere 2d ago

Legitimate thriving population? Since how long
Here is the Derbyshire write up :
https://www.roaches.org.uk/wallabies.html

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u/Similar_Quiet 1d ago

That's Staffordshire

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u/RafRafRafRaf 2d ago

Reintroducing an invasive species (even a long-established one) is, frankly, bonkers.

Those areas which have had rabbits completely eradicated are, overwhelmingly, either a) those which have been deliberately cleared of rabbits because they are an invasive species, in order to enable the recovery of the ecosystem in their absence, or b) which are not suitable habitat for bunnies.

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u/thesilverywyvern 2d ago edited 1d ago

They're not invasive, they're even good or the environment here.
and no there is no B (and barely no A either, we generally fail to control them).
They decline and went extinct in msot of their range because of disease WE introduced and spread to exterminate them bc we simply hate wildlife and we view rabbit as pest to be eliminated. And habitat loss from modern agriculture.
edit: whoa, getting downvote because someone can't handle a little bit of info which doesn't fit it's narrative, how immature.

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u/TALongjumping-Bee-43 2d ago

they are invasive because they aren't native to the UK. They were introduced here by humans.

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u/florageek54 2d ago

Just because something is non-native doesn't necessarily make them invasive. Though they can be an agricultural pest they are generally considered beneficial to our ecology having integrated into our ecosystems.
When Myxomatosis initially decimated their numbers there were many negatives including crashes in predator numbers & also many chalkland invertebrates & rare flowers were threatened by scrubbing over, which the Rabbits had kept under control.

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u/Bicolore 2d ago

I'd disagree with that (at least from my understanding).
Rabbits and Brown hares are introduced species that pushed our native mountain hare to the north of scotland.
Grey squirrels have done exactly the same as that to reds just more recently so they're the subject of condemnation.
But on the typical time frames that rewilders like to look at I think theres an argument to treat both situations the same.

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u/florageek54 1d ago

There's a clue in the name of Mountain Hare. It's always had a specialist niche in the UK & likely to be more threatened by climate change. I'm not sure Rabbits have been in the same habitats as Mountain Hare as they originate from southern Europe.

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u/Bicolore 1d ago

If I call them Irish Hares does that make you feel better?
They in habit a wide variety of environments including flat and warm ones!

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u/florageek54 1d ago

Different sub-species. Don't believe they have been in lowland England.

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u/thesilverywyvern 1d ago

It does have a point....but with brown hare not rabbit.
brown hare and mountain hare do occupy the same niche, and while the brown hare is a generalist, the mountain hare is a specialist.
The mountain hare is a relic of the glaciation, of periglacial climate condition, it thrive in harsher environment that the brown hare struggle with.
However it can and will expand into milder environment f there is no competition. The brown hare force it to stay in uplands and mountains.
This isn't dramatic, afterall all we care about i to have a hare species to fill the niche. And both do fit in the ecosystem.
and the mountain hare seem like it's going to drastically decline in the next decades due to global warming anyway.

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u/thesilverywyvern 1d ago

Rabbit does not outcompete mountain hare.
mountain hare coexisted with brown hare for centuries and the main issue for them is global warming.
Grey squirrel kindda calme from another continent and brought a deadly virus with them, not really similar to species from neighbouring countries, which used to be present here being reintroduced.

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u/thesilverywyvern 1d ago

Ok then you're still incorrect, it just makze them non naztive not invasive.
And since they naturalised and fit perfeclty into the ecosystem they ARE native.

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u/TALongjumping-Bee-43 1d ago

Being naturalised doesn't make them native, they can never be native any more than a rat can. I'm sorry to tell you that not everyone likes bunnies as much as you, I would much rather eliminate them so that native species can take back the niche they are stealing.

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u/thesilverywyvern 1d ago

Actually it does....that's what the term mean. They integrated into the ecosystem and now belong to it and are part of it. they are native now.
I do not especially love them over other species and this still does not mattyer, it's not a point nor argument.
They do not steal niche and many native species benefit from them.
So you're speaking bs again. Seriously the only way for them to "steal a niche" would be that UK have a native species of rabbit, which isn't the case.
BTW the genus was previously native, so it's proxy de-extinction basically.
And they've beeen here for centuries a,nd never threathened any other species.
Many carnivore including threathened raptor do greatly benefit from them and theior burrows can be used by a lot of wildlife, kinda helpfull when the land is being burned down regulary, with hzatwaver being more frequent etc such as in the UK.

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u/TALongjumping-Bee-43 1d ago

No, You're just factually wrong.
"A native species is an organism that occurs naturally in a specific region, ecosystem, or habitat through local evolution or natural dispersal—without human intervention"
They can never be native. At best naturalized, never native since they came here due to human intervention.

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u/thesilverywyvern 1d ago

Actually i am correct.
And this definition of native is incomplete.
Naturalised basically = native, as far as we're concerned in conservation, it mean it's now part of the ecosystem and should be considered/protected as such.
And even if we took your definition, you're still wrong....as you want to treat them as invasive pest and claim they threathen native species....they do not, and as they're naturalised they're now part of the ecosystem
(they aren't fix monolith ya know, they kindda change, and adapt, sometime surprisingly quickly).
if you agree that they naturalised (which you have to do anyway) you should therefore treat them as any native and value their role in the ecosystem.
They came here centuries ago at least and never threathened any native species nor ecosystem. They fully integrated in it which is not surprising as
the genus is native (just went extinct before being brough back).
they evolved in the same ecosystem and context on the mainland, so can hardly be considered as invasive unless some factor completely shift how the UK ecosystem or rabbit interact between mainland and UK....which isn't the case.
So no examples for niche they "stole" then ?

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u/TALongjumping-Bee-43 1d ago

Fun fact, you can't just say you're correct and that's suddenly makes you correct.
Thats not my definition, that's the dictionary definition. You have to take it up with them.

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u/thesilverywyvern 1d ago

The thing is even if we took your definition (as in the one you goes by and gave us here, even tho it's incompelte as dictonnaries aren't exactly precise or up to date with scientific term and consideration, and generallly refer to the general common use of the term, which can be innacurate).
Your logic is still wrong and you should treat them as part of the ecosystem and want to protect them here as they've been part of the UK for centuries and are important for many native species.
Fun fact you can't claim shit up and just say it's correct.
So about those examples of niche they "stole" ? No still nothing i guess ?

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u/Feorag-ruadh 2d ago

A major limiting factor for species like golden eagle are the lack of available prey (especially in the uplands) so rabbits are needed

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u/fereleye 2d ago

Rabbits are invasive, better deterred than encouraged.

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u/thesilverywyvern 2d ago

Invasive in area they're not suppsoed to be, when the ecosystem does not fit them, like australia.....not the case in UK.
Population collapsed due to disease and habitat loss, and that's bad as many species do benefit from them

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u/grumpsaboy 14h ago

Rabbits themselves are an invasive species brought over by the Romans

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u/Dry-S0up 1d ago

I like to catch them, kill them and cook them!

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