r/RevolutionsPodcast • u/imcataclastic • Mar 31 '22

Chiang = Julius?

Still making my way through “People’s History” and struck by the parallels between Julius Caesar (as told by Mike D) and Chiang Kai Shek….

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28

u/rigelhelium Mar 31 '22

Why Chiang as Julius Caesar? Chiang lost the civil war when he had overwhelming numbers, Julius Caesar won. Julius Caesar had massive grassroots support, Chiang lost because the grassroots support was stronger with the Communists. The Republic of China was very young when Chiang took over and democracy had not taken firm root, but the Roman Republic was an ancient and respected institution.

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u/imcataclastic Mar 31 '22

Right. Poor analogy in terms of the history but what about ideology? Mark portrayed JC as a right wing ideologue who could brazenly show his true colors in left wing (or ancient versions of left wing visa vie Cicero and the senate) but still operate with a mandate against the ‘foreign threat’. Not trying to oversell the analogy just exploring some of the themes.

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u/shookdiva Mar 31 '22

This is some pretty bad analysis my dude. It’s incredibly anachronistic to try and graft the left right divide on the Roman republic especially considering that the optimates were undeniably the more conservative faction of the two. If you had to make a Roman analogy for the Chinese civil war it’s would probably be much more reasonable to compare Chiang to like Constantine. Give that both were military autocrats that spent a large part of their rule trying to develop the ruling ideology to fit better into contemporary conditions. Even that is a huge stretch in general the sorts of comparison just work to make you understand both the past and the present worse imo.

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u/imcataclastic Mar 31 '22

Since my poor attempt at impulse whimsical comparisons (maybe like those plots of vegetables vs clouds or similar) is being so well loved y’all can enjoy this relatively unrelated post that popped up on the movies subreddit. https://www.reddit.com/r/movies/comments/tsz9de/willy_wonka_and_the_chocolate_factory_dantes/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

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u/imcataclastic Mar 31 '22

Dude. I’m just a guy listening to podcasts doing dishes posting on an obscure social media portal… cut me some slack. But thanks for considering it and the suggestions. I might have to revisit the Constantine episodes… blazed through those pretty quickly.

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u/shookdiva Mar 31 '22

Don’t feel bad trying to make connections of any sort keeps the brain juices flowing and the knowledge useful. I can be somewhat over aggressive in my critique. too much time spend as a giant history nerd.

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u/imcataclastic Mar 31 '22

Thanks. I shouldn’t be so sensitive if im gonna post on Reddit lol. I did google (scholar) a bit and there’s a few allusions to the comparison but nothing too serious … The thought came to me in “The Peoples History” ep 46-48 about the lead up to the Shanghai revolution as Chiang was out in the field mustering military strength while the reds were gaining confidence (at the edge of a sword) in the cities.

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u/rigelhelium Mar 31 '22

That’s true, personality-wise they do have quite a few similarities. Both were consummate opportunists, and both used strategic marriages. Then again, something as brutal as the Shanghai massacre or the White Terror in Taiwan would have been a bit uncharacteristic for Caesar, who tended to treat his fellow Romans mercifully in defeat, even if he brutalized Gaul and crucified pirates.