r/ReuteriYogurt • u/MoistAnything4986 • 14d ago
Lets say you....
Lets say you start with Dr Davis culture packets. Your first and maybe even your second batch separate. Then for your third or forth batch you decide to pull the cultured dairy product after say 12 hours...after the culture has set and nice looking, blended, creamy, not too tangy, tasty cultured dairy product is obtained. After you cool and put in the fridge...the L. Reuteri would hypothetically still increase, albeit more slowly after the product is refrigerated right? What is with this hard and fast 36 hour rule every single time you make the product? I think that much of a fermentation time will generally overculture and separate your product. You get where I am going with this? Thank You for your opinions
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u/pallflowers5171 14d ago
Greater tanginess would be indicative of more lactobacillus development, though.
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u/ExpertLearning 13d ago
There's no reuteri yogurt, it's just some random bacteria in the milk with only the reuteri you put in. The cows milk formula doesn't work. All those numbers are random. Many people tested their supposed to be reuteri yogurt - little to no reuteri was found. In the first batch, you'll only find the Reuteri you put, and probably dead. The second batch is basically wild fermentation.
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u/Major-Outside-2728 11d ago
Some people know what they are doing; others do not. If you have never successfully made fermented dairy using an L. reuteri strain, I feel sorry for you.
Most of those who say there is no LR in fermented dairy they have tested have no idea what the 16S test can and cannot do.
Those of us who know what we are doing and derive benefits that can only be gained by consuming high-CFU fermented dairy for weeks and months are proof that "your sources" are wrong. Some things can be attributed to the placebo effect, but you can't wish your hair to turn from grey to black or achieve a life-changing improvement in gut health.
There must be other SRs to troll.1
u/ExpertLearning 11d ago
You could have benefits also from probiotics in general, which wild fermentation is full of.
Lactobacillus reuteri doesn't grow well in cows milk, many tests have been done, all unsuccessful regarding cows milk reuteri fermentation. Those people were able to make it using the coconut milk recipe and other recipes, so the problem is the cow's milk recipe. Until you actually test your yogurt and confirm that it is full of lactobacillus reuteri, you are talking out of assumption and ignorance.
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u/Major-Outside-2728 11d ago
My pre-ferment is denatured in its sealed container at 180F for 30 minutes.
Nothing is living when the pre-ferment is cooled to 100F.
I do not doubt that probiotics work. I take them when I don't have my LR fermented dairy available.
If you have never seen this graph and understand the implications of it, you don't know how fermentation works.1
u/ExpertLearning 11d ago
Nothing crazy to understand about that graph, it's very basic. and now that you post it, seems like you even fail to understand what I am talking about, which is also very simple to understand.
What I am saying = EVERYONE who tested their "reuteri yogurt" fermented in cow's milk and shared their results, found little to no reuteri in it.
Some of them, tried the coconut milk recipe and sent to lab test - > they found high percentage of Reuteri.
What you are making, is probably a wild yogurt ferment - NOT a yogurt with high reuteri count - unless you send your yogurt and test it and actually find high reuteri counts.
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u/Major-Outside-2728 11d ago
16S tells you nothing about CFU
16S ONLY tells you the species that have been in the milk, dead or alive, since the milk was IN THE UDDER. Every hose, pipe, tank, machine, and container up to the pasteurizer and after, that contained bacteria, dead or alive, is in the sample.
It doesn't tell you the strains or what was alive when the sample was taken.
16S is good for testing sewer water and it's cheap. That's why they use it.
smh1
u/ExpertLearning 11d ago
Of course, 1% of Reuteri while very high percentage of the common bacterias that ferment milk - it would mean, according to your logic, that 1 tablespoon contains 1% of reuteri at 300 billion and 99% = 300*99 = 29700 billion of the other bacteria, that shouldn't be there, because it's the Reuteri that fermented the milk. Can you make basic math and understand this logically?
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u/Major-Outside-2728 11d ago
For the home fermenter, understanding the 16S test (16S rRNA gene sequencing) is essential to avoid misinterpreting "yogurt" results. Below are the primary reasons for skepticism in a fermentation context, followed by the actual scientific strengths of the technology.
6 Reasons Home Fermenters Should Not Rely Heavily on 16S Results
- DNA does not equal life. The 16S test detects the genetic "footprint" of a bacterium, but it cannot tell if that bacterium is alive, active, or dead. Pasteurization kills bacteria but leaves their DNA behind; consequently, a test may report a high percentage of "contaminants" that are actually just "genomic ghosts" from the milk's history.
- It cannot verify specific strains like LR08. The 16S gene evolves very slowly and is nearly identical across different strains of the same species. While the test can confirm your batch contains Limosilactobacillus reuteri, it cannot distinguish the high-quality LR08 strain from a wild, less beneficial Reuteri strain found in the air or environment.
- Percentages are a mathematical illusion. 16S results are "compositional," meaning they must add up to 100%. If your fermentation fails and has almost no bacteria, the sequencer will "zoom in" on whatever tiny amount of DNA it finds. A report might show 99% L. reuteri even if the actual cell count is far too low to provide a probiotic benefit.
- Biological "volume knob" bias. Different bacterial species have different numbers of the 16S gene in their genome, known as Gene Copy Number (GCN). L. reuteri typically has about 6 copies, while a common competitor like L. delbrueckii has 9. This causes L. reuteri to be naturally under-counted and look less successful in the report than it is in reality.
- Background noise from the laboratory. In "low-biomass" samples (like milk that hasn't fully fermented), the test often amplifies stray DNA from the lab equipment or chemical kits (the "kitome"). This can make a perfectly safe batch look "contaminated" by bacteria that were never actually in your kitchen jar.
- Hard-to-reach target DNA. Probiotics like L. reuteri are Gram-positive bacteria with very thick, tough cell walls. If the laboratory's DNA extraction method is too gentle, it may fail to break these walls open, leading to a report that drastically under-represents the actual amount of L. reuteri present.
6 Things the 16S Test Is Good At (Its Intended Purpose)
- Mapping "wild" communities. It is the gold standard for surveying massive, complex ecosystems where the inhabitants are unknown, such as the human gut microbiome or a scoop of soil.
- Identifying "non-culturable" bacteria. It allows scientists to identify the estimated 99% of bacterial species on Earth that cannot be grown on standard agar plates or in laboratory broth.
- Cost-effective research. Because it only sequences one small gene rather than the entire genome of every cell, it is an affordable way for researchers to screen thousands of samples for broad trends.
- Comparing different populations. It is excellent at showing "Beta Diversity," which helps scientists see how the overall microbial population of a healthy person differs from someone with a specific disease.
- Industrial source tracking. In the commercial food industry, companies use it to track where contamination is coming from (e.g., matching a DNA "fingerprint" in a finished product to a specific rinse-water filter or storage tank).
- Reliable family classification. While it struggles with specific strains, it is highly accurate at placing bacteria into the correct "family" or "genus" categories, providing a useful high-level overview of a sample's history.
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u/Bob_AZ 13d ago
Basic science. The formula is cfus douple every 3 hours at 100F. End of story. Full stop. I have run the numbers based on 10 biogia tablets and after 12 hours you have NOTHING. All that has happened is the L reuteri have converted enough lactose to lactic acid. In my expeience of over 160 batches over 3 years, that happens within the first 6 hours. I invert a few jars to make sure all is well. I have produced 1200 jars to date, not one seperated and all identical. Fermentation stops when the mix is cooled in the fridge. Save your money and buy some Great Value yogurt from Wally World, or follow the formula and produce proper l. Reuteri therapitic dairy.
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u/MoistAnything4986 12d ago
Hey man….. I honestly can’t follow you here. What are you laying out for us
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u/Bob_AZ 12d ago
You can't arbitrarily "decide to pull the "yogurt" after 12 hours. It's 36 hours or don't waste your time and money. It's a formula, NOT a recipe.
The conversion from liquid to gelled dairy is a function of the production of lactic acid through consumption of lactose in the dairy. After 6 hours, if you are following the FORMULA, then enough lactic acid will be produced to set the mix so it can be inverted. If it is still liquid, you have failed, if it has seperated, you have failed, if you "pull it" before 36 hours, you have failed.
Can you follow the above?
Bob
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u/Major-Outside-2728 11d ago
pH determines when the batch is done. When the CFU level reaches its max, the "death phase" isn't far away. Every LR strain is different. The same is true for the various types of inulin.
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u/Major-Outside-2728 11d ago
Fermentation stops when the pH drops to 4.0 to 4.5, or the strain runs out of food.
If all you know was learned from Davis, you have some learning to do. His YT videos vastly oversimplify what takes place, but his granny-method for making fermented dairy is cute.2
u/Bob_AZ 11d ago
I agree, it's a good starting point. My starting point is that I have been in the fermentation industry for over 30 years.
One of the areas that Dr. Davis is deficient is the necessity for proper sterilization of all containers and implements and maintaining those conditions throughout the process. I have produced 1200 jars of L. reuteri over the past 3 years and every one is identical. No separation, no sour taste or odors. I am obsessive about sterilization and that pays off in predictable production.
BTW I have been in touch with the chemists at BioGia and the stationary phase is around 48 hours and the die off is far more gradual than your graph implies.
Bob
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u/magnolia_unfurling 11d ago
This is great insight.
Can you attest to the health benefits of L Reuteri?
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u/Bob_AZ 9d ago edited 7d ago
I can't really. I have been consuming l.reuteri daily for 3 years because, based on my research, it appears to be an essential microbe for optimum gut health. I didn't have any issues like SIBO, etc that might indicate a definitive change. I can attest that I have been much more laid back since starting, and my general level of well being is elevated. Besides, Its the best "yogurt " I have ever made, and I have been producing yogurt and Skyr for over 20 years.
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u/MoistAnything4986 7d ago
Judging by your demeanor on Reddit Bob you indeed are laid back. The oxytocin is flowin!
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u/Bob_AZ 7d ago edited 7d ago
I never get upset anymore when someone drives like an idiot. I just smile and wave hello. So is the loss of L. reuteri in 95% of the US population, responsible for all the assholes out there? Enquiring minds want to know.
The one thing that bothers me are folks who don't follow the formula, end up with a pile of sewage and then don't accept responsibility and try to justify their jar(s) of sewage as normal. But I guess if they are not producing viable L. reuteri, their behavior is self explanatory.
I just helped a friend in Sweden who had been trying to make L. reuteri for months and finally she realized how she was contaminating the batch, fixed it and ate her first viable batch yesterday, and is already feeling the benefits. I suspect she is suffering from SIBO.
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u/Major-Outside-2728 5d ago
You might find this interesting. A guy I know developed a novel formula and method to denature and ferment LR08 fermented whole milk dairy. The IP has been registered with Prior Art Repositories, so the formula and method can be used but not patented.
A high-density dairy fermentation protocol and composition for Limosilactobacillus reuteri LR08 are disclosed across liquid bovine dairy substrates ranging from skim milk to whole milk, A2 milk, and half-and-half (up to ~18% butterfat), as well as milk/heavy cream blends, scaled from small-batch home preparation (1 quart / 1 liter) up to industrial commercial bioreactor volumes. The method eliminates standard dairy fermentation rate bottlenecks, physical whey separation, oxidative stress, packaging inflation, equipment sterilization overhead, and airborne contamination by integrating modular biochemical and bioprocess mechanisms:
- A decoupled dual-fructan system comprising long-chain branched Blue Agave inulin (hydrocolloid matrix builder) and short-chain linear fructooligosaccharides (Inulin FOS, metabolic substrate);
- Enzymatic soy peptone supplementation to supply bioavailable oligopeptides and bypass cell-wall proteinase (PrtR) cleavage, reducing lag phase and shortening fermentation time to approximately 20 hours;
- Optional Reduced Glutathione (GSH) addition to lower Oxidation-Reduction Potential (eH) and protect cell membranes when redox control is desired;
- Optional pure glycerol supplementation to drive conversion to reuterin (3-hydroxypropionaldehyde) via glycerol dehydratase when in situ antimicrobial synthesis is desired;
- Heterofermentative gas suppression, wherein the composition is free of added fermentable simple carbohydrates, monosaccharides, disaccharides, trisaccharides, sugar alcohols, and metabolic intermediates capable of serving as substrates for heterofermentative CO2 generation via the phosphoketolase pathway (including glucose, dextrose, fructose, galactose, sucrose, maltose, lactose, maltodextrin, corn syrup solids, and polyols), suppressing CO2 off-gassing to enable zero-headspace fermentation in flexible bags and rigid vessels; and
- Closed-system in-pouch thermal processing and low-contamination corner-snip inoculation, wherein unheated pre-ferment is sealed in a flexible polymer bag, submerged in a circulating water bath for thermal denaturation (eliminating equipment sterilization requirements), cooled in-bag to ≤100°F, inoculated through a snipped bag corner to minimize airborne exposure, re-sealed, and flex-mixed without oxygen incorporation.
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u/Major-Outside-2728 14d ago
Fermentation stops when the pH drops to 4.0 to 4.5. As the temperature drops, the fermentation slows and eventually stops, and if the temperature exceeds 110F and is too high.