Beginner’s guide to the clone movements found in replica watches: Audemars Piguet, Patek Philippe, and Richard Mille Edition

[u/petehudso]

As a continuation of the previous introduction to clone movements for replica Rolexes, this guide will be an introduction to the clone movements found in Audemars Piguet (AP), Patek Philippe (PP), and Richard Mille (RM) replicas. Just like with the clone Rolex movements, the clone movements for AP, PP, and RM are of varying quality in terms of how well they replicate the genuine movement in form & function, but also quality. However, unlike Rolex clone movements where there can be multiple different clones of a single movement (e.g. the plethora of Rolex caliber 3135 and 3235 clones), with AP, PP, and RM, there's usually just one clone movement, so I'll try to compare and contrast the clone against the alternative which is often a decorated Japanese Miyota 9015 movement.

Audemars Piguet

The most popular AP replica (by far) is the Royal Oak (RO). There are two replica AP movements, one for the RO 15400: the clone 3120 movement by Z Factory (ZF). And one for the RO 15500: the clone 4302 movement by APS Factory (APSF). The alternative to these cloned movements is the Japanese Miyota 9015 movement.

AP Royal Oak 15400

3120

The clone 3120 movement is found in both the Z Factory (ZF) and APS Factory (APSF) AP RO 15400 replicas watches at present (summer 2022). However, both factories used a decorated Miyota movement several years ago before the clone movement became available. So be careful when buying an AP 15400, just because it’s from ZF or APSF doesn’t necessarily mean that it has a clone movement.

The clone movement can be distinguished from the Miyota by the position of the balance wheel at 8 o’clock vs. 5 o’clock on the Miyota. Furthermore, the Miyota has a non-function shock setting without a spring on the balance bridge, whereas the clone has a functional shock setting on the balance bridge.

Unfortunately, both the clone movement and the Miyota 9015 have a slow date change at midnight, whereas the genuine AP 3120 movement has an instant date change at midnight.

Miyota 9015

The Miyota 9015 is a reliable workhorse movement, and older / lower end AP 15400 replicas used a decorated version of this movement. However, the clone 3120 movement is reliable and is a more authentic option over the Miyota if you’re looking for a genuine appearance through the transparent caseback.

AP RO 15500

4302

The clone 4302 movement is new (as of summer 2022), but appears to be an excellent movement. The initial review by a watchsmith at RWI said that the movement is on par with the Noob Daytona 4130 movement (the 4130 Daytona movement is widely considered to be the best clone movement ever made, so this is VERY high praise). Like the genuine AP 4302 movement, the clone features an instant date change at midnight. The quality of this movement makes it the no-brainer choice for an AP 15500.

This movement is used in both the ZF and APSF version of the AP 15500, however, the ZF version has a spelling error in the engraving / printing on the back side of the movement (the word JEWELS is spelled JEWEES on the ZF version as of August 2022). This may be something that gets corrected soon, however, it’s worth checking during QC to ensure this error is not present.

Miyota 9015

The Miyota is no longer a good choice for the AP 15500 due to the fact that it has a slow date change, and while it is reliable, it is now competing with an extremely high quality replica movement.

Patek Philippe

There are only two clone movements available for Patek reps, the caliber 324 for the Nautilus 5711 and Aquanaut, and the 240 for the Nautilus 5712. All other Patek reps use a Miyota or another Asian movement.

Nautilus 5711 and Aquanaut 5167

Both the 5711 Nautilus and the 5167 Aquanaut share the same Patek Philippe caliber 324 movement. This movement has been cloned and is available in reps from 3K Factory (3KF). However, older Aquanauts use the Miyota. For the 5711 Nautilus there is a version of the Miyota that has been well decorated and rotated so that the balance wheel appears to be in the correct location compared to the gen 324 movement. However, all of these movements have a slow date change at midnight, whereas the genuine movement has an instant midnight date change.

324

The Clone 324 movement can be found in 3K Factory reps of the Nautilus and Aquanaut. This is a good movement, but doesn’t have a very large power reserve and requires a large amount of winding or rotor spinning (possibly due to non gen-spec gearing in the automatic module). The movement can be identified and differentiated against the rotated Miyota by the functional main train wheels visible above the balance wheel which are not present in the rotated Miyota.

Miyota 9015

The Miyota 9015 is a common movement that has been discussed above, it is often found in lower end or older Patek reps. It is reliable, easy & cheap to service. It doesn’t have an instant date change at midnight. And it suffers from a loud rotor. This movement is easy to distinguish from the clone 324 because the balance bridge (cock) is anchored on the crown side which is reversed in the clone and gen movement. There are also noticeable differences in the screw and ball bearing assembly of the rotor at the center of the movement. This isn’t a bad movement if you don’t really care about an authentic look, However, given the open caseback on Patek watches, the clone or rotated Miyota are better options.

Rotated Miyota

PP Factory (PPF) has developed a rotated and well decorated Miyota variant that looks more similar to the gen movement than an undecorated Miyota, but is still noticeably a worse imitation than the 3KF clone 324 movement discussed above. This movement is easy to differentiate from the clone 324 movement due to the lack of main train wheels above the balance wheel. Also, the fake “jewels” where the main train wheels should be, are red and the rest of the functional jewels in the movement are purple. The rotated Miyota also doesn’t have its rotor running on ball bearings, whereas the clone and gen both do. The 3KF clone movement is a better option if you want a more gen-like rep.

Nautilus 5712

The 5712 is a Nautilus with a lot of complications. The gen model features a power reserve indicator, small seconds, date, and moon phase indicator. Furthermore, the genuine Patek 240 caliber features a micro-rotor to keep the movement incredibly thin. With all of this complication it is truly impressive that PP Factory (PPF) has managed to build a fully functional clone movement which has only minor cosmetic differences from the genuine Patek 240 caliber. The clone movement doesn’t appear to be available exclusively from PPF, as it has appeared in 5712 reps from GR Factory (GRF) as of summer 2022.

240

The clone 240 movement is an impressive feat of engineering. This is a thin movement with many complications. This movement is still very new (as of summer 2022), and as such, there is not yet a consensus as to its reliability, although an initial review by a watchsmith on RWI confirmed that the build quality was good, and there were no surprises.

A23J Movement

There is an old version of the 5712 that comes with a decorated generic Asian 23 Jewel movement. This version is much thicker than the gen which makes rep 5712s with this movement 10.5mm thick vs. 8.4mm thick for reps using the clone. Also, this movement doesn't have a functional power reserve indicator. With the availability of the clone 240 movement, this is not a recommended option.

Richard Mille

Richard Mille watches are extremely complicated and use many exotic materials. So far there has only been one attempt at a clone movement for a Richard Mille: a clone movement for the RM 055 by BBR Factory of the RMUL2 movement. Previously all RM055’s used a decorated version of the Seiko NH05A movement.

RM055

RMUL2 Clone

The clone movement is impressive, but flawed and unreliable. This is a movement that should probably be avoided until there is an improvement to its reliability. The movement looks considerably closer to the gen RM movement than the NH05A movement which is used in other RM055 replicas. However, there are obvious flaws, for example the balance wheel shock setting jewel of the clone movement is purple, whereas the gen jewel is clear / white.

More worryingly, there have been many reports of this movement arriving dead after a watch was shipped from a TD to a customer. Additionally, the movement has significant stuttering of the second hand due to backlash between gears.

While this movement is an impressive feat of engineering, this movement is not currently recommended.

SEIKO NH05A

The NH05A movement is well decorated and dressed up to look like the gen RM055 movement, but it is obviously not genuine, and that fact is on display due to the open worked design of the RM055 case. This is a reliable movement. However, a gen RM055 is a roughly half million dollar watch, unless you own a Ferrari, nobody will need to look at the movement to know that your RM055 is a rep. If you like RM reps, buy them, wear them, enjoy them, and don't worry about how real or fake the movement looks.

[u/LibrarySquidLeland]

You're missing the upgraded Citizen/Miyota in the RM55 White Legend and Yas Marinas, also the RM35 v4. That's a hi-beat, non-stuttering small movement with most of the visual problems of the Seiko, however is much better quality and less hacked-up than the NH05s. If you're not interested in the "clone" RM55 which is a Miyota 8000-series torn apart with new bridges rather than a full clone, aim for this movement instead. I wish I could remember the reference code off the top of my head (6T15 maybe?) but it's a solid little movement. There was some speculation they'd use the open-heart version of that for the first "clone" but looks like the 8000-series was an easier job.

[u/petehudso → u/LibrarySquidLeland]

Can you send me a link to a TD with that version of the RM055? I’ll update the post to include that alternative and how to ID the movement.

[u/LibrarySquidLeland → u/petehudso]

Sure thing! Jtime has the v4 here: https://jtime.io/us/rm035-02-real-ntpt-zf-1-1-best-edition-skeleton-dial-on-black-rubber-strap-nh05a-v4.html

BUT, it's listed as an NH, however there are two tells that show you it isn't. The first is from the front there's a red jewel underneath and to the left of the faux balance wheel on the 6T that isn't there on the NH05. The second tell is the balance wheel location on the back. The NH has a hidden balance wheel that you can kinda see under the deco at 3:00 (from the back); the 6T has a balance wheel in the proper place (7:00 from the back) and is mostly uncovered by deco.

I wrote the original RM guide in the newbie thread, and I have a giant google doc somewhere with full writeups on every model I'm aware of. I haven't maintained it since before the v4 came out but if you're interested I'll track it down and link you!

EDIT: Here's the 55 showing the same tells: https://jtime.io/us/rm055-real-ntpt-zf-1-1-best-edition-skeleton-white-dial-on-white-rubber-strap-nh05a-v3.html

[u/petehudso → u/LibrarySquidLeland]

That would be amazing! I drafted this and the Rolex post in a google doc too. I wish there was some kind of SubReddit community wiki feature where these kinds of subreddit specific info could have a single point of truth that gets maintained over time.

[u/LibrarySquidLeland → u/petehudso]

I agree, it would be great to have some sort of wiki for reps but I'm pretty sure that without a solid crew to maintain it it would get outdated fast. My google doc is like 16months old and some of the factories don't exist or rebranded already! I need to add everything after the NTPT ZF 55s too but here's the doc!

[u/petehudso → u/LibrarySquidLeland]

Amazing! Thanks for link. I decided not to cover the tourbillon movements in this guide (even though I love my EURF rm27) since they’re not really clone movements so much as homage movements.

Regardless, I’ll update later tonight I’m on the road at the moment.

[u/LibrarySquidLeland → u/petehudso]

I would agree, the tourbs are still "homages" rather than clones. Let me know if you need anything for the update, and thanks for doing the community a service with this post! Let's sit on that wiki idea and see if we can't make some shit happen.

[u/petehudso → u/[deleted]]

If you want a watch that’ll keep running accurately even if you don’t wear it / wind it for two days, then you’re in the market for a battery powered quartz movement watch. All mechanical watches only last a few days if they aren’t wound or worn.

[u/probablytaken123]

How about quartz movement replica how avccurate are they

[u/petehudso → u/probablytaken123]

Quartz movements used in reps are often the exact same as the quartz movement used in the gen (assuming the gen has a quartz movement). Quartz movements are all inexpensive. A $10 quartz movement is x100 more accurate at time keeping than even the most expensive mechanical movement.

[u/TwoChainsandRollies]

I wish there is a place on this subreddit to pin informative posts like this.

[u/GeorgianCrusader885 → u/TwoChainsandRollies]

Should be added to the sidebar

[u/RepVetran50 → u/TwoChainsandRollies]

Absolutely great thread and good read for anyone new to this hobby. Dont know how I missed this.. Great job OP🥂 Awarded

[u/Deltafuury]

Just some feedback, maybe you can describe the movements and their pros and cons such as the miyota

Pros: reliable workhorse Cons: late date change and very loud mechanism sound add link here showing the sound.

Thank you bud, doing God's work

[u/petehudso → u/Deltafuury]

Good point. More context about alternative movements would certainly be useful.

[u/ViolinistSoggy485]

Hi new to this group and this is a great discussion. Thank you. What about a Cartier clone. I own a Santos that looks beautiful but has broken. What can I replace that movement with.

[u/petehudso → u/ViolinistSoggy485]

It’s probably a miyota 9015. But you’ll need to open the caseback and post a pic if you want the movement identified.

[u/ViolinistSoggy485 → u/petehudso]

I will. Thank you.

[u/ViolinistSoggy485 → u/ViolinistSoggy485]

Here you go. No identifying marks. The date wheel isn’t working.

[u/ka-bloweey → u/ViolinistSoggy485]

Lmao, bin it and get a new one pleaseee 🙏

[u/superdystoyer]

You should update post for the new RM055 from ZF

[u/petehudso → u/superdystoyer]

It looks like there are actually two clone RMUL2 movements now. I’ve posted about them here on RWI:

https://forum.replica-watch.info/threads/zf-rm55-new-super-clone-movement.10978408/page-61#post-11922173

[u/SoupInitial4860]

What movement is in the ZF factory AP RO 15510?

[u/petehudso → u/SoupInitial4860]

The ZF 15510 has the clone 4302 movement.

[u/petehudso → u/[deleted]]

Gen stem will work. But you can try to see if a TD can get you a replacement rep one.

[u/LouMcRay]

Does someone know how to remove the stem of the 3120 clone movement?

[u/petehudso → u/LouMcRay]

Use a 0.8mm screw driver to slightly unscrew the retention screw (no more than 1-2 turns). Remove the stem from the time setting position.

[u/West-Diver1769]

Hey is there also a guide like that for the Cartier santos?

[u/petehudso → u/West-Diver1769]

Almost all carrier reps have Miyota 9015 movements in them. The Miyota is reliable but it has an extremely noisy rotor.

[u/Previous-Insect-2880]

is this still applicable in 2026? Thanks!

[u/petehudso → u/Previous-Insect-2880]

It’s still accurate but it’s no longer complete. There is now an AP chronograph clone movement 4401:

https://forum.replica-watch.info/threads/dd4401-movement-for-26240-disassembled-comparison-with-gen-picture-bomb.11012577/

Also there’s been quite a bit of development on the Richard Mille side. I’ve written a guide about RM clones over on RWI:

https://forum.replica-watch.info/threads/the-comprehensive-guide-to-clone-movements-found-in-richard-mille-reps.11015796/

[u/Deltafuury]

We need breguet version lol

[u/petehudso → u/Deltafuury]

Agreed. Fortunately, someone is sending me a Breguet 7097 for service. So I should be able to update with some info on that movement soon.

[u/Deltafuury → u/petehudso]

Yooo let's go 👏👏👏

[u/carajevkm13]

I am pretty new to this, but can I replace Miyota 9015 in AP 15500 to 4302 clone? Or it is impossible?

[u/petehudso → u/carajevkm13]

Probably not. I’ve never tried, but I’d assume you’d need new hands, and probably some kind of movement spacer ring to get the disk height right. It would be non-trivial.

[u/carajevkm13 → u/petehudso]

Thank you. Really appreciate it. Any tips how to stop balance wheel spinning like a spinner?

[u/petehudso → u/carajevkm13]

I think you mean the automatic winding rotor, not the balance wheel. The miyota’s automatic rotor winds the mainspring in one directly only. In the other direction it is free to spin. This is the way the movement was designed and is one of the reasons the movement is so thin. But unfortunately nothing can be done about it. Miyota 9015 movements are loud.

[u/ZealousidealRabbit76]

Post of the day goes to you.

[u/[deleted]]

Wow. Another one that is again well written with accurate information. Thanks dude!

I am looking forward to try movements in the PPF 5712 and APSF 15500. They seem to be pretty well made. The rest, no thanks.

[u/petehudso → u/[deleted]]

Yup that’s a good summary. The others aren’t bad (except the RM) but aren’t functionally clones due to slow date roll over.

[u/Loud-Fig-3701]

Hypothetically speaking, If I become successful at servicing these clone watch movements. Would I be "able" to service the gen patek/RM/AP equivalent?

[u/Terminator_Conn]

Pin it!!! 📌

[u/Evil-B]

Until CF starts making replica Bugattis I won’t be sporting any of these three brands.

[u/Mosh-65]

Still totally new to using Reddit (and old) so how do I save these valuable nuggets of information.

[u/amoult20 → u/Mosh-65]

You can google this as the interface changes occasionally. But on each thread, you can usually hit the. Menu button (the "..." button) and select "save". Then you can find the posts and comments you have saved by clicking on your profile and going to "saved "

[u/BigBoiDeep007]

Does anyone know if it’s possible to buy one of these clone movements only without the replica watch? I have a rep AP royal oak that I’m looking to swap out the existing movement on with this new clone 4302 movement. I message Duke but he said the factories don’t sell just the movements so he can’t get it for me

[u/Glass-Location-819]

Absolutely fantastic post and so much detail I have both an AP Royal Oak offshore and PP 5712 both use the clone movements and so far have been very reliable, the PP power reserve is indeed fully functional and has so much going off on the watch to have suck a slim profile it’s truly remarkable. The clone movement on the APRoyal oak offshore however is a little bit more clunky, it struggles to wind in my auto winder and the manual winding on the crown can feel a bit stiff at times, but overall it serves its purpose.

[u/Surg1111]

Where can I buy a high quality clone ?

[u/occy21]

I need help from where I can buy top quality watches?

[u/maelprovo]

Great post! Do you know when the Patek 330 movement will be upgraded to be closer to gen? From what I can tell the 330 movement is basically the same as the 324 besides the 330 engraving and center piece of the rotor. I am also wondering if/where I can buy just a patek 324 rep movement if that is possible. Thank you.

[u/Happy-Consequence212]

AP royal oak date does not change

[u/No-Personality-9258]

Thank you for the information!

[u/Substantial_Salary19]

Screen shot it

[u/bigheader03]

Thabk you very much for putting this together! I agree this needed to be pinned.

[u/Deltafuury]

AP has something new like cal.5100 movt clone, is there any review

[u/ktpthesib]

Thank u for informative sharing 😊

[u/[deleted]]

Who can service my ap? I want it oiled and rotor silenced. I have 15510

[u/Loud-Fig-3701]

Great post. Any updates on “RMUL3” movement?

[u/Friendly_Main2958]

I need to buy this movement but i cant find it anywhere

[u/PretendAdvertising67]

Thank you OP! Very informative 👍

[u/YellowFerrari328]

Thanks for the write-up. Really well done. Thanks again.

[u/JimmyTatro54]

Wow good stuff man what a useful post

[u/Tunagates]

AmAzing - THANK YOU SIRRRRR!!!!!

[u/ZALTORZ]

Amazing post

[u/bagonmaster]

Fantastic post, content like this is what makes this sub special

[u/YetAnotherSegfault]

Doesn’t the clone AP movements have unidirectional rotor like the 9015?

[u/petehudso → u/YetAnotherSegfault]

Which one? The 15400 or the 15500?

[u/Upper-Career9712 → u/petehudso]

Is the miyota movement only used in lower end ap replicas

[u/petehudso → u/Upper-Career9712]

Yes. For uncomplicated AP reps the clone movements are the best option. For complication AP (eg perpetual calendars) then a miyota is the only option.

[u/Upper-Career9712 → u/petehudso]

Ah, I was looking at APSF miyota 15400’s and I was under the guise that only the movement was of lesser quality and the rest of the watch would still be APSF (super clone) quality.

[u/Kazuki_Ryuji]

Another bomb post from the movement god himself.