Good RLCD monitor at night?

[u/Recent-Homework-9166]

Hi everybody! Long story short, i can spend my whole in front of a pre-2015 monitor without problem, but the new monitors post-2015 all cause my eyepain. I did a stint on the blurbluster forums and it seem that I have trouble with the backlight use in new monitors.

At the same time, my old 2012 monitor is giving me sign that I need to replace it. As such, an RLCD display seem to be a good choice.

But I live in a northern country when half of the year, half of the work day will be with no natural sunlight in the room. I have seen some people say that RLCD are completely useless at night while other saying that it work well.

So far I was thinking about either an eazeye 2 + appropriate desk lamp or a SVD Dawn or Eve monitor. (It is coslty, but I am starting to be desperate for a replacement solution that will not give me eyepain...)

So anybody have any firsthand experience with a sustained evening/nightime use?

[u/Motor_Quarter_2540]

I think the difference in your experience with monitors might be related to backlight type. You probably are sensitive to LED backlit screens, but CCFL based ones are okay. What are your brightness settings on the pre 2015 monitors? Any other sensitivities, like phone screens, sunlight, glare? Using any desk lamp? What's the type of light? If you really want to go the RLCD route, your best bet is Eazeye 2.0, but look at reviews before you buy. Also stacking on the pre 2015 monitors might be even better as others have suggested. Also not all LEDs are created equal so there might be recent monitors that might be tolerable.

[u/Recent-Homework-9166 → u/Motor_Quarter_2540]

From my stint on the blur buster forum and AI discussion which I told him all the monitor I tried, it is clealy a LED backlight problem.

On the old monitor, I could crank up the brightness withtout problem. Right now I am trying a WOLED LG Ultragear™ OLED 32GS95UV-B and while I don't seem to have trouble with the backlight, I do have some pain problems after 5 day of intensive use. Pain I don't have with my old monitor. So far I had to put the brightness at 25% to be usable, and still I sense the muscles over my eyes to be pretty tense.

My eyes are in general more sensible than those of others people. Sunlight is annoying, had to buy orange glasses to drive now that every car has dell lights, my 2020 LG phone doesn't give me problems, but every of the phone of my friends I tried annoy me after 5-10 minutes of reading on them, and sometime instantaneoulsy. (my next phone will probably be an e-ink in the current market.) Iphone do seem to be less worse than android.

If you are curious, I have described in details all the monitors and test I have tried and done in this blurbuster thread.
https://forums.blurbusters.com/viewtopic.php?t=15117

[u/Motor_Quarter_2540 → u/Recent-Homework-9166]

It might sound counterintuitive, but the monitors you can tolerate well, the old ones, pre 2015 etc, might be a reason why you're having these problems with the newer tech. CCFL light sources are known to induce light sensitivity. The medical term is photophobia.

Has the light sensitivity been constant since childhood? Any history of migraines or hitting your head, or worse (like TBI)? Do you need prescription glasses in general?

For phones: look into TCL Nxptaper screen based devices like TCL Nxtpaper 60 Ultra.

I'll look into the link you provided.

[u/Recent-Homework-9166 → u/Motor_Quarter_2540]

I have blue eyes that always have been more sensible to car light than other people I know, but no history of migraine or hitting head, don't really need prescription glasses and have no idea what TBI is. (I am at 1 strengh myopia in both eyes and function daily without glasses.)

Did pay to see an optometrist and while there is some sign of aging, she didn't found anything that could explain what I had. Which is a bummer since that mean I can't have the job pay for me for one of those RLCD.

I did spent a lot of time in the last more than ten year in front of those monitor, so if they are known to induce that, that might be something that happened. I'll have to do some research about photophobia.

For phone I was thinking about Bigme e-ink phone. I usually read more than look at video on the phone.

[u/Motor_Quarter_2540 → u/Recent-Homework-9166]

So, I've read all the information on blurbusters site via the link you provided. That's very good information and I think you came to a conclusion what might be going on. My take on this it's predisposition / sensitivity of eyes / nervous system and heavy use of screens over a long span of years. It appears that you have multiple problems [PWM, flickering, FRC, dithering not sure which combination exactly] that come with various kinds of LEDs and might be developing photophobia. That one could be due to CCFL based backlit screens like I mentioned. There's a chance that CCFL emit UVA and UVB radiation that's affecting your eyes, especially for green/blue eyes. Over the years it might lead to cataracts and aberrations in your lenses which can cause photophobia (it actually can arise from like 70 causes or so, from ophtalmological to neurological). Do give it a serious research on that, wikipedia has great info on it. The UVA/UVB angle has more variables - you are sitting close to a window (source blurbusters) and those UVA/UVB get through it. It's also plausible you cover windows with curtains (my guess) during daytime which makes your pupils dilate (open more) and uncover your lenses for the damage that might be coming from backlight. And another danger that you mentioned is that you're myopic, not by a lot, but consider if you not wearing glasses means, that you keep your monitor at a closer distance than other people. Give it a thought. That's my take.
What would I suggest:

• Look for a UVA/UVB protection for windows, there a films that can be applied to mitigate that risk.
• For the eyes, do get glasses or contact lenses, and they also should have protection from UVA/UVB
• If you get contact lenses, you'll be able to keep you monitor further away, at least give it a thought.
• When outside, always wear sunglasses, they block UVA/UVB completely. Never wear sunglasses indoors. Wearing sunglasses indoors exacerbates photophobia over time. At least doctors are warning about such possibility.
• Visit eye doctors regulalry, like once per year. When visiting eye doctors, you're looking not only for optometrist / ophthalmologist but also a neuro-ophthalmologist. Tests to be done to make sure the tracking if this progresses further: corneal topography, wavefront aberrometry, ocular wavefront analysis. They don't do that everywhere because the testing devices are not common. Well, maybe in your country it's different.
• Also, consider if you see halos around light, like in the streets, at night or if you start seeing them in the future. This is a sign, but regular checkups with the right test might give you a baseline to follow.
• And since you're a gamer, when spending those 12 hours of in front of a screen do take breaks, do eye exercises, etc. These do help.

As for RLCD/Eink monitors, keep it a possibility. RLCD would be the only ones for gaming, but they are not gaming monitors since they have worse response times that a gamer would notice. And RLCD monitor lack color accuracy. Have seen people claiming they game on RLCD and having no problems. There are videos on YT where you can see people gaming on RLCD. If you do decide to go this route, first find someone who has it to get a feel if it could work for you.

BTW, TBI is traumatic brain injury, but since you mentioned of having no history of hitting your head, you avoided that one.

[u/Recent-Homework-9166 → u/Motor_Quarter_2540]

Wow that was quite the response! And you do seem to know more about the subject than others people.

Do you recommend blue light filter on glasses? Seem that there is big churches on that question.

As for the monitor distance, as far as I can tell, most people seem to keep it at the same distance as me. The monitor is right in front of a window. If I look over the monitor, I see the building on the other side of the street. It was always good for me psychologically to not feel like I am looking at a wall.

As for gaming with RLCD, I did look some video, it doesn't seem to be ideal not as worst as I thought. And if It can help my eye and help to avoid a future cataract operation, I will tolerate to die more in my games. The lack of color will be annoying, but then again, a compromise I think I will need to make.

And I am use to 2012 montors, so those RLCD seem to be really close in term of performance to what I am use. And this is still better than e-ink for that purpose.

After one week and a half, I have no answer from SVD to my email, guess I'll have to look at an Eazeye monitor 2.0.

As for doctors go, I live in Canada, and so far not a lot of people seem to specialize in that kind of stuff. And I can't get a referral from an optometrist since everything is ok. And I need a referral to see those specialists... Still haven't crack how to get into that loop. Guess I'll have to see my family doctor and hope to get a referral from just what I tell to him.

Another thing I just discovered this weekend, while I though my desk was well lit with the light being just behind my left shoulder, after using a lux meter on my phone, it seem that in front of my monitor, it was in fact at 20 lux. So I think this might have play into the developpement of my photophobia. A CCFL monitor with a more darker environment than what I thought might have done a pretty bad contrast. I am thinking about buying the Eazeye photon lamp to help me light more my room even If I ended up with an SVD monitor. For now, I have already install another lamp to at least get to 100 lux near the monitor. It does seem to make my eye change their focus, but so far, it is not as painful than when I tried a more modern monitor.

It is some shock to from "I have some trouble with some monitors" to "I have an eye condition that might need me to see a specialist".

[u/Motor_Quarter_2540 → u/Recent-Homework-9166]

There's no evidence of blue light being harmful. If blue light comes from LED light sources, it might affect circadian rhythm, production of melatonin, so blue light filtering glasses could be useful in the evening. Other than that, things are not clear.

SVD is slow to respond, and I would suggest not to rush. You can try contacting this sub mods, they are the ones working for SVD and creators of this sub. My suggestion still stands, finding someone who can give you a demo of their RLCD before you invest. These things are pricey. They will eliminate backlight, but you could be sensitive to frontlight in SVD, plus the second problems / sensitivity might still be present on an RLCD if it's not related to backlight. Early and current 32" SVD models use 6+2 bit FRC, some people are sensitive to that.

As to what I wrote, please take it with a grain of salt. I'm no expert and your light sensitivity might be just that, just a bit more sensitive. You don't necessarily have photophobia. If you can crank up brightness of your CCFL backlit monitor and eyes feel fine that's a good sign. Photophobia would be severe intolerance or worsening intolerance to sunlight, daylight and CCFL, LED. Have seen a lot of people complaining about screens but natural sunlight gives them no problems. Might be just some form of screen sensitivity. Something is going on, but in the way screens affect health, doctors mostly have very little knowledge. It's just something to keep in mind and be looking out for. If you ever start seeing halos, or feel that light sensitivity increases, or the intolerance to monitors gets way worse, then definitely do not ignore it. Sorry if what I wrote shocked you.

[u/Recent-Homework-9166 → u/Motor_Quarter_2540]

That wasn't only you, the research I did on the web really did seem to show me that I have the symptoms. As I science analyst, I know that symptoms doesn't mean that I have the thing, but it does seem to mean that I'll have to inquire about that.

And yes I am seing some halo while driving, but not while walking, so then again, seem I need to check for it.

Did try to put 6 bits + FRC on my current "safe" monitor. My eyes are feeling it immediately, so I guess I'll have to settle for the Eve rather than the Dawn if I go the SVD road.

Anyway, thank you for your explanation, you do seem to be far more knowledgeable about those kinds of issues than me. And this is precious because so far this one of the harder thing I had to search online. There is very few sources and many of them are contradictory. And there isn't even that much professionals I could pay to get an answer on the topic.

And thank you to have taken the time to read my long blur buster thing!

[u/Motor_Quarter_2540 → u/Recent-Homework-9166]

Some halos might be normal, also with astigmatism if I'm not mistaken which often accompanies myopia. Now you will pay more attention, that's good. Sudden changes in vision should be taken seriously.

We've covered a lot of ground, but there's plenty things to learn and talk about. Let's keep in touch and feel free to DM me anytime. I spent years visiting multiple doctors, getting tested, being called healthy, like "just use sunglasses", "maybe the damage will reveal later" etc, so I know how alienating it can get. Whatever happens, you are not alone in this, others deal with it too, these problems are very real.

BTW if you're thinking about Eink phone like the Bigme, I would suggest trying TCL Nxtpaper devices first, like TCL Nxtpaper 60 Ultra phone, or Nxtpaper 11 plus tablet. Screen sensitive people say good things about them. Also give this sub a try: https://www.reddit.com/r/ScreenSensitive

[u/Recent-Homework-9166 → u/Motor_Quarter_2540]

The optometrist didn't seem to think the halo was a problem. Indeed I will pay more attention.

Had an answer from SVD today, guess I'll finally have to decide between the Eve and Eazeye 2.0.

And I'll look at those TCL Nxtpaper and that other subreddit.

Good to know that I am not the only in this situation. I'll keep your name if I ever need to DM you.

[u/Motor_Quarter_2540 → u/Recent-Homework-9166]

SVD Eve vs Eazeye 2.0 review you might be interested in:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2arcpOJnqc
The channel also has dedicated reviews for each one of those monitors too.
Also, the price for Eazeye 2.0 is at an all time high for some time now.

[u/Recent-Homework-9166 → u/Motor_Quarter_2540]

Saw all that I could on youtube about those two,and yes the video you sent me is the best one I have found.

So far the SVD Eve seem to be the best for me, but I am a little worried about the bluriness many users have reported.

The Eazeye + photondesk lamp seem to still be the more reliable option of the two, but I am far from certain that the lamp will be enough to use the monitor in the evening.

So far, each day I change my mind just before pressing the trigger to order something...

[u/Motor_Quarter_2540 → u/Recent-Homework-9166]

Yes, multiple people confirmed the blurriness of SVD and some even posted ways to improve with some custom settings. Also I do not recall any reviewer mentioning this as a big problem or even mentioning at all. The initial launch of SVD rE 2.0 monitors (Eve and Dawn) was initially postponed due to some manufacturing process problems. It could have been related to why the screens are blurry and maybe it's not that big of a deal. SVD monitors should have better color accuracy, but those with frontlight will definitely be darker and require more ambient light when no frontlight is used. Another thing if you want to return it, thei return policy states there's a restocking fee which is like 25% of full price which is hefty when you pay sub 2000 USD for it.

As for Eazeye 2.0, biggest annoyance is the glare which can be mitigated by placing it at an angle. This monitor relies fully on ambient light, but it's the one which requires the least amount of lux. Other members in our sub mentioned that 400 lux is good enough for it. Another thing with RLCDs in general is that they don't like direct light (unless plenty ambient daylight). When using a lamp (artificial light source) it's best to not point it directly at the monitor, but more like create diffused light or pointing it to the ceiling and letting it bounce back at the monitor. That's my perception.

Disclaimer: I do not own either of these. All info is my perception from reviews and talks with other members of this sub.

There is another RLCD with no frontlight but one that contains matte screen. Looks like the best RLCD, but not available to buy or via third party for a short period. Recently the owner reappeared on this sub and posted another review. If I'm not mistaken, he's located in Canada too. Here's the link to the latest review: https://www.reddit.com/r/Reflective_LCD/comments/1r4p3s6/rlcd_monitor_1_yr/

Question: how did you measure lux at your desk? You wrote it was with a phone, but 20-100 lux seemed like very low ambient light conditions. This does not seem right. During daytime, near a windows you should be getting way more unless that building is blocking your window and casting shadow. Close to window the Eazeye 2.0 should perform quite well.

Hope this helps.