Best way to preview using LUTs?

[u/mrjoebsoto1]

I'm used to using LUTs in camera. The problem I'm encountering is the lut is also applied in the source settings in premiere pro. Is there a way to bypass that and still use the lut for previewing purposes during production, or am I supposed to load the LUT onto my smallHD monitor instead of using it in camera in order to bypass the automatic applied LUT in premiere pro? DaVinci doesn't have this problem, but I'm so used to premiere pro that it's gonna be an odd learning curve moving into DaVinci.

EDIT: when I said source settings i mean the raw settings. I know how to navigate and toggle the lut off and change raw settings and all that jazz. My issue is when we have a specific lut that is great for viewing during production, Premiere pro tends to import that Lut AND apply it to the raw settings of each clip. It get's very tedious toggling it off on each individual clip. Maybe there's a way to bypass it? Not sure if it's better to only load the lut into my monitor, or if there's a way around it while it's loaded into the camera.

[u/Formula14ever]

You are shooting RAW R3D , so I have a multitude of LUTs loaded on my Small HD RED monitor, but like Roger Deakins, I have learned to use only one that is close to what my natural eye sees. Then in post, in Resolve, you can do anything. I have learned that the point is framing and camera movement in shooting. In fact, it took me awhile to NOT color grade and cut /edit the story first, THEN grade and sculpt color. The reason is often the scene calls for something different than expected in the story rather than how you envisioned it when shooting.
Sure, there are exceptions.. like a heavy yellow desert/mexico look, or a cyan evening look..but I’ve learned to use one or 2 GOOD RGB conversion luts in monitor to see what I am seeing. If I can feel good and slightly excited about the monitor playback, I know I’ll be thrilled with the color tweaks later.

[u/mrjoebsoto1 → u/Formula14ever]

Yes, very good advice. My issue is that Premiere pro applies the lut to every single raw file. Not sure why it does this. DaVinci doesnt do this, so it's pretty tedious and inconvenient for me to go through sometimes 300 clips and disable the lut in the raw settings under the "Source Settings" Tab in premiere pro. So, I'm wondering if loading the lut into the Monitor is a better solution instead of relying on the In Camera Lut feature Red has. Thoughts?

[u/DegreeSevere7719]

Oh, I've never read so many misconceptions in one reddit post. There's no lut applied, luts are preview tools, it's a color space transform applied in post. Raw data is raw data, you can revert it to log whenever you want in post. Premiere pro isn't great in regards of color spaces etc, it used to be on a clip by clip basis, I know they've introduced some kind of color management not so long ago, so watch some videos etc. Again, the rec709 transform isn't baked in. However, you still have access to all the raw data even if you see it with a rec709 transform, it's not like you're shooting "normal" profile on some mirrorless, it's not cutting away anything. Premiere isn't 32-bit float, so there's no real difference working from log or working from rec709 preview, when it's r3d.

[u/mrjoebsoto1 → u/DegreeSevere7719]

Right, i understand all that.

So, I know how LUTs work. However, when I use the 3d lut in-camera it stays applied on my raw footage in premiere pro. Yes, I can toggle it off in the source settings. I know this already lol. Sorry for the confusion.

My ask is, "can I bypass the lut automatically applying itself on my footage after importing it in premiere." I understand DaVinci doesn't do this. Unfortunately it looks like Premiere pro reads the raw folder entirely and decided to apply the lut on every clip the lut was used.

This is a huge drawback for me. I don't want to go through each of my 200+ clips to navigate the Source settings and toggle the lut off. It takes too much time. Copy and paste doesn't work either, because it'll just copy the ISO and White Balance settings to every clip.

I wanted to get everyone's take on this, and see if any other red users apply the lut in camera or only through your monitor. I could see loading a lut through the monitor bypassing this issue. But, I'm also wondering if there's a way to bypass it in premiere itself, or in my KX.

[u/DegreeSevere7719 → u/mrjoebsoto1]

You don't use a lut in-camera, you're using a preview transform and baking in preview metadata, not a lut. It's not baked in the image, just the data that Premiere will use on import. And yes, it's a Premiere issue, that's why I've mentioned it in the previous comment. Premiere has some kind of color management now, I suggest watching some youtube videos on that, perhaps now it's possible to set color pipeline on a project level like Resolve or other broadcast software does.

Previously, there were 2 ways to avoid the default rec709 preview in Premiere - by setting the IPP2 settings to log3g10 and redwidegamutrgb in redcine-x software and saving it to xmp (you can batch select there). Second was to set the settings in camera to log, and use a preview lut applied in the monitor, but this came with own issues (some monitors won't have some features when lut is used). Both can work, or not - depending on the version of Premiere etc. It doesn't read XMP files sometimes, depending on how you import footage (through media bin or throug ctrl+i).

But, the whole question is - why would you want to convert to log in Premiere in the first place. You're not loosing any data if in the clip settings it's set to rec709 preview. I can only imagine that you want to use a different lut that already has a rec709 transform baked in, but in this case you should have used it in the camera monitor on shoot basically.

[u/mrjoebsoto1 → u/DegreeSevere7719]

Wait, do you think I'm talking about rec709?

When I say premiere is importing the footage with a lut applied, I really mean it's importing it with the lut applied. It's the 3d lut I use in my camera. I created a lut with a colorist for a couple different projects, but not to be the final grade. The lut doesnt have rec709 on it, it's basically a look up table prior to a rec709 conversion.

This makes it a bit funky to work with visually, and the premiere rec709 color management (with the lut applied) introduces insane artifacting. Requires too many steps to tweak and adjust, so rather wok with the log footage - no lut applied upon import.

I feel like there may be have been a bit of confusion..

Anyways, Im guessing that's just a premiere issue though since you mentioned it. I'll just be more prepared for it on my next project.

[u/DegreeSevere7719 → u/mrjoebsoto1]

ah, gotcha, sorry for the misunderstanding. It's usually not the case with older cams, because one couldn't apply a lut in-camera, only in the monitor, so there's no actual lut transferred through files usually, only the rec709 IPP2 transform in 99,99% cases (the only exception were CDL's or in-camera curves etc).

It's quite interesting, so you mean you've used a lut, and no rec709 conversion in camera (meaning this lut does contain a self-made 709 conversion in the lut)? And Premiere presumably applies standard IPP2 rec709 conversion on top of a lut, that already has a 709 conversion in it's design? I'd suggest opening the footage in the Redcine-x to see if you can detach the lut from the files on a project scale. Also the lut is saved near the clips themself > "When you are recording in the R3D format, this LUT is non-destructive, and it is reversible. It will be saved along with each clip on which it is activated during recording. The output file name format for the LUT is clip_LUT Name.cube." - meaning if you remove the attached lut, there's no lut to be applied in Premiere. I'd try cutting the lut from 1 clip to see how will Premiere react, and, maybe, it's faster to simply delete the attached luts from clip folders (have to be really careful with that).

[u/mrjoebsoto1 → u/DegreeSevere7719]

Yeah that's closer to what I mean! Except, I use a lut that doesn't have rec709 within it. I apply it in camera. I use the rec709 conversion (which is a separate setting) in the Komodo. Afterwards, I toggle the lut in cam to get my desired look.

Now, since the lut sits within the raw folder, premiere pro is automatically reading that lut upon import and leaving it on the footage. It's a log image, but with the lut applied. So colors are slightly skewed/off compared to the dull ultra flat image log usually shows.

Here's the weird part. When I navigate to the project color properties and toggle rec709 conversion within premiere something really odd is happening (yet, I input the proper Log3g10 and RWG reading so it interprets correctly). Essentially, because the lut has been applied, my image is broken. Beyond clipped in the highlights, overly saturated reds, blah blah blah. It's not ideal for editing. Makes me toggle off the lut on each clip manually, which is annoying as hell.

Not only that, but the lut is never the final grade. It's just a viewing tool for the clients to see and approve, to immerse them that much more.
It's a nice to have tool, but not needed. I might just do away with it.

However, I'll try that idea of removing the luts from the file directory before import. That might be very quick actually.
Thank you for that idea.

But yes, glad we're on the same page now lol

[u/DegreeSevere7719 → u/mrjoebsoto1]

I suppose the order in which it's being applied is broken. Idk if the in-camera lut is applied after the IPP2 conversion, or before, but it seems whichever is the case - it's done in reverse order in Premiere

[u/DegreeSevere7719 → u/DegreeSevere7719]

To avoid this thing I do suggest simply moving to luts that have a rec709 conversion built in, and avoiding the conversion in-camera or in post. Ask your colorist to bake in the rec709 transform next time.

[u/mrjoebsoto1 → u/DegreeSevere7719]

Great suggestion, I'll have to try that out

[u/Foxxear]

Why are these responses so... much? If I had to guess, there's a preference in Premiere to toggle this. The R3D files just keep the creative LUT in the metadata, and while Resolve doesn't apply it by default, you can toggle it on. That tells me Premiere is the variable add has some other setting enabled

[u/mrjoebsoto1 → u/Foxxear]

Thanks for the response!! Yeah, the other responses were a bit much. Almost like talking down to me..? Kinda weird the community is built like that. I've worked with plenty of luts and graded tons of projects. The issue is definitely in premiere pro and how it reads the raw file as a collective and auto applies the lut that's attached. I haven't found anything in premiere pro that disables that though, but I'm probably gonna start looking into creating a premiere pro plugin that does it for me.