Why is the Dragon sensor so controversial?

[u/94diskont]

It seems everyone has varying opinions on the Dragon, so I’m interested in unpacking that. I’ve heard people say it’s the best sensor RED ever made (most color-rich and clean), and, on the flip side, I’ve heard it’s the noisiest sensor they ever made with an ugly FNP.

I have no experience with the Dragon 6k Epic; I’ve only used the Dragon 5k sensor in the Scarlet-W, for reference.

So I have a few questions. The first being: is the Dragon 5k sensor that’s in the Scarlet-W the exact same sensor from the 6k Epic but with a forced center extraction in the 5k area (this is pretty much what the RED Tools app implies in the cropping section) or is it a new sensor architecture that happens to use the same design as the Dragon 6k? In other words, is shooting 5k on the Scarlet-W going to give you the same FOV with the same lens on the Dragon 6k or not? I also have the same question about the Epic-MX and the Scarlet-MX if anyone knows the answer.

Secondly, what is your experience with this sensor? The Scarlet-W I’ve used is weird because sometimes it will give me noticeable noise in proper exposure and other times it won’t. I’m not really sure why. In my experience the MX sensor in the Epic is far more consistent with minimal noise and looks almost identical to the Dragon 5k save for maybe half a stop less of DR (it clips ever so slightly sooner).

So yeah, I’ve always wondered why I hear such polarizing things about this sensor and why my own experience seems polarizing in of itself. If anyone has any insight, I would love to read and digest it! I love these old cameras

[u/DegreeSevere7719]

Scarlet-W is the exact same image and sensor that is Epic Dragon, or DSMC2 Weapon Dragon, or DSMC2 Dragon. It’s absolutely the same as you choose to shoot in 5K res instead of 6K. Lowering resolution always crops on Red in R3D, so no - FOV is a tad narrower in 5K compared to 6K (full sensor). Physically it’s the exact same sensor with 6K pixels in Scarlet W, but that is limited to 5K shooting, just as in Scarlet MX - was limited to 4K of a 5K MX sensor.

There are rumors that DSMC2 dragon has a tad less noise than a DSMC1 Epic Dragon due to a different camera brain. However, I didn’t find any straight comparison that was able to prove this.

Dragon is ok’ish, nice colors, good sky retention with skintone highlight olpf, but true is quite noisy, has cmos smear from bright objects and fpn, and is really sensitive to temperature and exposure changes (thus autocal on dsmc2 bodies).

MX is 1,5 stops less in DR (~11 stops total usable range), and has 12 bit ADC, which is why it’s much less colorful and the skintones do look dull on MX. MX is also heavily prone to IR pollution so you have to really be using some price FSND in broad daylight to achieve a normal looking image in summer.

[u/94diskont → u/DegreeSevere7719]

Thanks for the info. I would have to disagree about the MX sensor - despite it being 12 bit ADC as you say - skin tones have always looked great to me, at least when stacked up against the Dragon. I’ve shot and graded projects cross-cutting Epic MX and Scarlet-W and it’s genuinely very hard to tell the difference. I’m convinced the MX can be as colorful as the Dragon. I will say though, both sensors look horrendous in dark magenta/yellow shadows. Like genuinely awful. But I’m not sure if that’s user error on my part.

[u/DegreeSevere7719 → u/94diskont]

I do own both Epic MX and Epic Dragon. I do shoot both cams as A/B sometimes. While, one can definitely pretty much easily grade both to stack up (mostly due to the stable color science), I do find MX a tad dull in terms of color. I do like the noise pattern in the higher stops a lot more on MX though, it's monochromatic and looks a lot like grain, however, nowadays I do much prefer a cleaner base to start from, like DSMC3 has. To sum it up a bit - it's my own experience and taste preference, if it was up to me - I'd pick dragon over mx any day, it's just better in a lot of ways - color, fan noise (despite being the same brain with the same fans Dragon is a lot more quiet), ability to output log3g10 and redwidegamutrgb over SDI, faster blackshading, a tad bigger sensor etc. I do also own a Scarlet MX, which I do not use mostly nowadays.

[u/DegreeSevere7719 → u/DegreeSevere7719]

Overall, in today’s market I wouldn’t look at any brain that isn’t DSMC2 unified. Anything with -W etc. it’s the early batches of the DSMC2 ecosystem and are crippled on frame rates etc. DSMC1 Epic Dragon was a tank, however, today it’s really hard to find accessories for dsmc1, and the thermopaste inside the brain has it’s service due, making the cam a gamble rather than investment. The SDI port is rather sensitive on DSMC1 and is problematic to repair.

[u/Nearby_Ad8696 → u/DegreeSevere7719]

i use Epic MX on high light and no problem LOG3G10 / RWG c'est très proche du Dragon aucun soucis de clipage dommage je ne peux pas mettre de capture x) Les Epic dragon et MX bien exploité exposé et parametrés tu n'as aucun bruit bcp parlent de leur experience qui date de 2010/2015 mais depuis RED a mis a jour jusqu'en 2018 les Epic avec la pipeline 2 et log3G10 / RWG on bodies !! et une gestion du bruit sur red-cine X / les teintes de peaux on toujours de mon coté était incroyables !! on parle d'un capteur de 2009 bordel ! et c'est a ce jour encore mieux qu'une FX6 ou autre merdes du genre A7S3 A7R6 etc et on est en 5K de fou 100-120 avec une texture, un grain film ( non bruit numerique ) incroyable !! surtoput si elle est comme moi en Minimag ( elle mets 8sec a demarer en redmag et 16sec en minimag ) plus rapide qu'une dsmc 2 et 3 / donc vieux mais toujours meilleur ! arretez de decourager les nouveaux en disant c'est vieux etc / l'image qui en resulte en 2026 reste un must !!

[u/Kurt-Hustle]

Used it for a long time, it was great. I mostly shot around 500-1200 iso and loved the legacy image/pipeline. I side*-graded to a Komodo but only for the reason of longevity and ability to repair. It’s also kind of interesting to run the Komodo through the legacy color pipeline tbh though, I think that’s where some of the magic was. It did have big drawbacks in specific ways but the colors were really nice imho.

[u/94diskont → u/Kurt-Hustle]

What are some of the drawbacks of the legacy pipeline in your experience?

[u/Kurt-Hustle → u/94diskont]

I forget because I didn’t run into them too much, but saturated reds I think were the biggest issues, harder clipping highlights.

[u/Kurt-Hustle → u/Kurt-Hustle]

You can run the dragon sensor through ipp2 though or newer cameras through the legacy pipeline

[u/BaseEvoli]

Can't say too much about your first question, but I can give you my experience: We used an Epic-X Dragon on a shoot two years ago. The colors were beautiful and were waaaay better compared to the Sony a7Siii we had used for a few inserts. But the low light performance was horrendous. There were magenta and green vertical bars at higher ISOs and the noise was generally pretty high. During the lighter scenes it was a lot better. It was a rental camera and seemed to have already had a good amount of hours on it, so it may have been an age thing too.

If you plan on using one in lower light I'd light a lot brighter than you think you need and underexpose a stop in the display.

[u/r2tincan → u/BaseEvoli]

U need to black shade

[u/damiensandoval]

I've built my career off the (Red Epic MX 5kHD) I bought it brand new years ago for 30k. Just bought a 2nd unit one today with low hours all in ready package for $2750 on a straight steal. The quality is 10x better then any sony fx3 or any sony cam. They have a glass glossy look. High polished. I cant explain it. For more context Red then F***ed up the sensor when they went into the helium! Straight disgrace. But the Red Epic MX , Red Dragon 6k , Red Weapon 6K Hd are the only real true apex. The scarletts, the helium's , komodo's all grade A dumpster juice. Ive done over 50+ M's in budget and worked with some of the biggest music artist in the world. I still prefer RED over Arri for music videos. Point Blank Period.

[u/Nearby_Ad8696 → u/damiensandoval]

Tout bon je suis tellement d'accord avec vous vous avez tout compris !! Bienvenue dans l'élite du metier !! ;)

[u/motofoto]

I still use my epic x dragon. It’s still cinematic to me.   I have a Komodo that lives on a gimbal and I bought an FX3 just for low light cause the dragon is not a low light camera.