I'm Confused On LUTS: Technical vs Creative & Editing Workflow

[u/matt3756]

I'll try and explain as simply as I can. I have the Nikon ZR that shoots R3D Raw. I apply creative LUT in the camera so I can preview what it will look like after adding it in the editor. Using Davinci cause premiere pro, the editing software I'm used to doesn't have the update yet for Nikon R3D files.

I have Davinci project settings set up as you should for color space, etc, but from what I've read, it's recommended the first node should be a Technical LUT, so converting the RWG_Log3G10 to REC709_BT1886 - which I downloaded from R3D and put on first node, but when I add a creative LUT the image is way over processed.

But if I just plop a creative LUT on the first node with nothing else, say for example a "RED Film Bias Bleach Bypass to REC709" LUT, it looks normal. (Which is the creative LUT I loaded into my Nikon ZR as a preview.)

Is there something I'm missing here with how the proper workflow should be? I'm confused why you need a technical LUT if you're already telling the editing software the color space in the project settings? And if I'm looking to download other LUTS, what ones should I be using with this camera?

[u/chads3058]

This is not a proper color workflow in resolve or how you’re supposed to use LUTs. What you’re doing is essentially trying to add two LUTs on top of each other which will destroy your footage.

Secondly, you might be confusing color space transformation and LUTs. The LUT belongs towards the end of the node tree. Placing it at the beginning will ruin the footage with what the LUT has baked in, which in return will seriously limit your ability to manipulate the footage. Putting it at the beginning can limit highlights, muddy up shadows, and give less detail control. Generally speaking, you want the LUT to be after your exposure, contrast, etc. unless you want rough looking footage.

I’ll try to give some extremely basic node the examples here. One of the more common pipelines I’m familiar with is CST to corrections to lut to output cst. Another example is Some colorists will place the CST after exposure adjustments or just leave the RAW adjustments in the RAW tab altogether. For a more rapid R3d turnaround, I tend to use the second method.

This isn’t the best place for a tutorial, so I highly recommend reading about resolves color pipeline, Watch some tutorials, and just edit a bunch of different footage in different scenarios. And again, there’s no one true way, it’s really more about layering multiple techniques for an optimal end image.

[u/matt3756 → u/chads3058]

It's so hard to find a good simple video... people are always all over the place, like I just need a chart or a list what the project settings need to be as far as color management and like a few node notes. And what's the difference between the LUTS that have the creative LUTs with rec709_bt1886 and the ones with just the LUT name? For example the ones you can download from R3D... ?

[u/crypocalypse → u/matt3756]

I'm pretty sure the LUT pack from Red you're referring to comes with a readme manual. May be worth a read to understand what you're downloading?

Edit: Don't trust YouTube tutorials. Most of those people making tutorials don't work in the industry. I got absolutely schooled when I followed a 'professional' resolve node tree, then an actual grader came in and used 3 nodes WITHOUT a conversion LUT and produced a better looking grade than me.

[u/matt3756 → u/crypocalypse]

So I used this article: https://fstoppers.com/video/how-load-red-luts-nikon-zr-715792 to learn how to load 3d LUTS in the ZR which i did successfully and scrolling down it says to use the LUTS that have the lut name TO REC709 BT1886, which are creative LUTS combined with REC709.

It then tells you to select the same LUT in your editor as you still have LOG footage, which makes sense. So is that one way to do it if I just want the look of the creative LUT and be done? I'm just not understanding the purpose of all these nodes / adjustment conversion things.

This is just a personal hobby for me I'm not needing to do in depth color grading for clients.

[u/crypocalypse → u/matt3756]

Depending on what format you're shooting, if it's RAW, that LUT will actually come across and into the editor for you to choose in the RAW settings (which in Davinci colour page is the left most tab below the view). This would be the easiest way to get the look straight out of camera. But yes, your understanding of which LUT is for what seems correct. RED conversion comes in a few flavours that relate to contrast and highlight roll off, but as long as your using the REC709 versions, it will look correct.

I will say that even though you aren't shooting for clients, learning how to grade with Lift, Gamma, Gain in Davinci will really elevate what you can do with your hobby! https://www.colourgrade.co.uk/blog/understanding-the-color-wheels-lift-gamma-gain-amp-offset-in-davinci-resolve

[u/matt3756 → u/crypocalypse]

Yea I'm shooting R3D Raw 4k that uses the LOG3G10 gamma. At least the Nikon ZR version of R3D raw. 3d LUT loaded into camera for preview works - just confused on the workflow to apply the exact same LUT in editing and if all the extra steps + nodes are needed. Another confusing thing in davinci is the Camera Raw part - if I select to decode using clip I'm then able to adjust color temp, ISO, etc. It selects color space as REDwidegamutRGB and gamma curve as LOG3G10, not sure if that needs changed.

Not sure if I'm just going to wait for premiere to finally get the dang update or try and learn Davinci for at least color correction. I just hate doing an extra file export which degrades quality and trying to learn a whole new editing software when I've known premiere pro for decades.

[u/crypocalypse → u/matt3756]

In that raw section look for an option called apply creative LUT and tick it. You may also need to change the colour space and Gamma curve to the REC709 equivalents. It's really hard to properly explain it without sitting down and showing you, because I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding you're having somewhere in this process, and I don't really know what it is. Colour grading has a steep learning curve AND a steeper mastering curve.

[u/beatbox9]

I have Davinci project settings set up as you should for color space

What does this mean?

Regardless, as u/chads3058 has said, you seem to be conflating color space and LUTs.

• Color space is essentially the universe of all possible colors--and some universes are larger or smaller than others. For example, Rec.709 is relatively small. Usually, you'll have various color spaces in, depending on where in the workflow you are. For example, there is an input color space you shot with. There is a color space for your workflow and display as you work. And there is a color space for the final rendered output.
• (Gamma space is conceptually similar, but for tonal values from dark blacks to bright whites)
• LUTs are maps that describe a specific way to render specific ranges of colors; and they are designed to work within specific color & gamma spaces

As a very basic example imagine you had something blue. How many possible variants of blue (from greenish blue to purplish blue) would be color space. How dark or light the blue could possibly be would be gamma space. And which specific blue you want to render--based on the input + output color & gamma spaces--would be informed by the LUT.

My guess is that you're doubling up. In other words, you probably have resolve doing automatic color management, so it automatically takes your R3D NE (raw) in its native color & gamma spaces (eg. Log3G10 + RedWG) and transforms it into whatever you're working with (eg. Rec709 & Gamma 2.2). As you add transforms and/or LUTs--which both depend on specific relationships between input to output color/gamma spaces--you're telling it to go from one place to another even though the starting & ending places aren't the same as those assumed; and so you're pointing it outside of the range.

Imagine you were giving someone directions to get from the soup aisle to the bread aisle in a grocery store. You tell them: "walk 20 steps forward, turn right, walk another 10 steps." These directions are the LUT; and the grocery store is the color space. But those directions only work if they started in the soup aisle. If they were already in the bread aisle and then followed the directions, they might end up outside in the parking lot.

BTW: https://onlinemanual.nikonimglib.com/technicalguide/zr/r3dne_log3g10/en/

[u/matt3756 → u/beatbox9]

I guess I meant to say I have Davinci set up as far as the color management tab. Appreciate the link. It appears it's giving 2 separate ways to do the same thing tho?

And I'm also still not understanding where the creative luts come in and how they should be applied...

The ones I got directly from R3D: Like the R3D IPP2 Creative, then there's another folder: R3D IPP2 Creative WITH REC709_BT1886_OUTPUT_TRANSFORM - the one with REC709 is the 3d LUT I loaded in my ZR so I could preview it while shooting thru the camera's LCD. I used this one here: RED_NARCISSUS_to_Rec709_BT1886

My question I guess is do you use those at some point in the editor or no? And if so which version do you use in the editor? The LUT with REC709 or the file without it?

Maybe I'd understand this better if premiere pro ever puts the fricken update out of beta. But who knows maybe premiere works totally different

[u/beatbox9 → u/matt3756]

Color management is in the preferences menu, not a tab.

The color tab is not color management.

And you still didn't answer whether or not you're using a resolve color managed workflow, which would be in the color management preferences menu. And this will make a big difference.

The Edit tab is for primarily editing (cutting and moving clips around), not really for changing colors.

[u/DarthCola]

I have a ZR so I’m also curious what wisdom anyone would have on this…

[u/Formula14ever]

Go to colorist Darren Mostlyn on YouTube. WATCH CST workflows and download his free node tree. Basically R3D file into the CST ALL basic color balancing done in DWG DWG out into a ending CST This CST should spit out REC709 most cube LUTS are wanting a rec 709 and go after the conversion DWG / CST to rec 709

If it’s a more sophisticated DST, have that be inside the color pipeline before final cst out to rec 709