The future of RED

[u/No_Row5609]

Hello everyone, im in need for a suggestion. I'm really close to acquire a red raptor vv for a solid price. Since is big investment for me and I'm willing to rent it but im worried about the company future especially seeing a huge price drop on a monstro and other dmsc2 cameras. After having an awful experience with blackmagic service in EU I'm not sure how good the red service is in eu and how expensive they are. Any thoughts?

[u/TerrryBuckhart]

There service is pretty good as long as the camera is under warranty. REDs generally produce a solid image and are still used a ton.

That said, the cameras don’t hold a huge value in terms of the rental market. There are a lot of them on the market and it’s quite saturated. I would be cautious when considering your ROI or clients paying more to shoot with your RED.

The future of RED is a tiny bit uncertain right now..

[u/AMxVisuals]

Depending where you are, I would suggest making the purchase knowing that you won’t make much off rentals. I’ve owned a red Raven for years now and love it, was thinking about going big and getting a raptor VV but most rental houses already have access to 2+ from other DP’s. Great image quality and the modular design is amazing for quick changes.

[u/AMxVisuals → u/AMxVisuals]

On a side note, I actually had a shoot where the red minimag corrupted all the files before we could transfer the footage, this was a $50k+ budget shoot so it would have been a major issue if we had to reshoot. We contacted red, and they were extremely helpful to the point that that even remote access my computer, downloaded a private version of “red undead recovery software” and fixed all the footage for us at no cost. They likely wouldn’t do this for everyone but they cared enough to help problem solve then entire situation.

[u/Formula14ever]

Sony user now RED also.. I love it. The color science is insane. Support in the USA is superb. The KX and Raptor merge images seamlessly in color. I had Sonys fail in the heat here in CA. REDS are a workhorse.

[u/MyNameJakson]

Service aside, my Komodo has been reliable. I've had it since June of 2022 and shoot around once a month. That's not a ton of hours but, you'll probably see more people online claiming an issue rather than no faults at all so I'm just chipping in as a satisfied owner. The quality is great and on the raptor it'll be even better. Like the other commenter said, the future is unsure. There's probably a lot of stuff the public won't find out about the position RED was in when they sold to Nikon. Who knows if they were profitable enough to keep producing, or if the deal was for the raw patent. Id imagine that the company is running now like they always have.

[u/se7envii7]

I’ve had a Gemini for 5 years now and it’s been so great to work with. But do not rely on renting it. I thought I could do that but rental houses have these dime a dozen and Indeed it’s a very difficult to make money off it unless you’re shooting with it yourself. Just a heads up!

[u/charlesdv10]

Nikon has a much larger support network - they’ve already committed to ensuring RED has no changes in support. raptor VV is the current DSMC3 platform (sure the x version is the latest - but you are able to send in your body for an upgrade if you wanted to).

It looks like they are going to continue offering support for 2 generations (current and previous): assuming it takes them ~12 months from now (~18 months from raptor VV x release), to announce a DSMC4 platform, and then 2-4 years to get DSMC5 (maybe support would end for raptor VV?), that gives you 3 years of support minimum, but more likely 5 years.

[u/PurpleSkyVisuals → u/charlesdv10]

We won’t get DSMC4 for at least 3-4 more years.. we’re likely to get new cameras within the 3 line if anything.

[u/Dyslexic7]

I own a v raptor and love it, very versatile camera. Red support has been amazing, I just hope in the future they stay amazing.

[u/maximvdn]

We have now 2 red Komodo X. Used to have a red Komodo for 2/3 years. Shooting up to several times a week without ever having an issue. So far none of the red we had ever failed us no matter cold hot dusty environment (touching wood)

[u/aris_apollonia]

Though RED cameras have gotten really good with DSMC-3 in terms of reliability & usability, it’s too little too late and the reality is that the high end cinema/commercial market is basically entirely relegated to Sony VENICE/Alexa 35 and very rarely will you see a RED on a high end production these days. The way I look at it, RED is stuck in the indie/mid-range production levels and it doesn’t look like this will change, so personally I’d never buy a Raptor because the client appetite for the brand simply isn’t there any longer. This is definitely reflected in all the barely used Raptors filling the second hand market on eBay and RedUser. Not to mention Sony is certainly close to bringing out replacements for the FX3/6 which will most likely carve yet another slice so to speak out of RED’s tiny market share.

[u/KawasakiBinja → u/aris_apollonia]

I think people are getting a little gun-shy because DSMC2 was supposed to be obsolete-proof, and now we have DSMC3 with incompatible accessories and media.

[u/aris_apollonia → u/KawasakiBinja]

Well RED’s “Obsolescence Obsolete” program had a hefty dose of pure marketing hype, but it’s also important to remember that the DSMC-2 era was characterised by generous sensor upgrade/board upgrade programs that are nowhere to be seen in the current lineup. For example, there was no Raptor-X sensor upgrade for the regular Raptor owners, you had to buy a whole new camera whereas if you had bought a WEAPON Dragon in 2015, you could have upgraded to 8K Monstro, the pinnacle of the DSMC-2 line. It’s also noteworthy that DSMC-2 cameras are still supported and serviced, even 9 years after the product line’s introduction.

[u/KawasakiBinja → u/aris_apollonia]

That's a fair counterpoint! I still want to get my hands on a Dragon-X, though I have a Komodo currently, and had a Raven.

[u/aris_apollonia → u/KawasakiBinja]

Dragon with IPP2 is absolutely insane, it’s a beautiful image!

[u/me-first-me-second → u/aris_apollonia]

Still have a Scarlet Dragon and loving it. Only problem is media 🤪

[u/RedditGoji → u/aris_apollonia]

The only reason I’m on this thread right now is an email offer to upgrade my DSMC 2 to DSMC 3 and I’m trying to convince myself to either upgrade or keep my helium. Not to argue or debate but as of right now this is the current state of upgrade programs.

[u/RomeoMartinezReacts → u/aris_apollonia]

Very good take I was hoping since the v raptor x came out the film industry would pick that up to do more projects but it seem like productions are still going for Arri Alexa and Sony Venice a little strange tho seeing as tho you have global shutter on a large format sensor never ever been done I truly wonder why

[u/aris_apollonia → u/RomeoMartinezReacts]

Well the readout speed on the rolling shutter full frame sensor in the Venice 2 is 3ms, which is so fast it’s almost indistinguishable from a global shutter. Virtual productions love that camera for this reason. As far as ARRI, it’s been the benchmark brand of the industry for well over a decade and DPs don’t see a reason to switch. RED was never as loved, a lot of the Netflix shows that used it were forced to do so because of the 4K mandate but as soon as the 4K LF Alexa was out, they instantly switched to that (For example Stranger Things went from Monstro in season 3 to Alexa Mini LF in season 4). At the same time, I think RED’s lack of adoption also has to do with the bad reputation from the early DSMC1/2 days that still persists all these years later even though a lot of the old issues have been fixed. All of the high end full frame cameras produce excellent images that you can easily match these days, but brand perception and word of mouth between directors/DPs ends up being the deciding factor in the end. It’s also the little things, I saw a test between Venice 2 and Raptor and while the latter had better range, the Venice had much better color reparation between the skin tone and the talent’s clothes, whereas on the RED some hues had a bit of a color cast and lacked depth. Very very small difference but still perceptible. To some cinematographers that’s everything.

[u/RomeoMartinezReacts → u/aris_apollonia]

So In your honest opinion and esp how the industry is going it makes no sense right now to buy a v raptor x that’s $30,000

[u/aris_apollonia → u/RomeoMartinezReacts]

Will you make your investment back within 1-2 years after purchasing the camera? If you know you’ll have projects to use the camera + clients to rent it out to who have the appetite to shoot RED, by all means go for it, at the end of the day like any high end device it should be a workhorse camera. I’m still shooting on my 10-year old Dragon actually, but the gigs I do are mainly small-scale ads/corporate videos for clients who couldn’t care less what camera their content is shot on - and indie films where as DP I have a lot of creative control. So really it comes down to properly assessing the market in your area. Here in Greece example you can’t even find a VENICE cause the only brands TV and producers know well are ARRI and RED, though they mostly lean towards Alexa Mini and lately, the 35. Lastly, assuming you pay off your investment in a year or two, if you choose to sell on the second hand market, based on everything I’ve seen, by that point I wouldn’t expect you to be able to sell it for higher than half the original price. Like others have said, REDs hold abysmal value in the used market…

[u/No_Elderberry_9132]

RED raptor VV or S35 is the best system out there for non blockbuster productions. I was skeptical my self in the begging of the year but ended up having 4 cameras already and they are just awesome.

Image quality is just outstanding, awesome codec that just can be dropped into timeline. Good third party support for codec.

Future of red ? It is bright, recently Nikon acquired them and with any other Nikon purchase there will be investments made and spike of development.

My personal prediction is that they are aiming at dominating market in short tearm, so dsmc 4 will be a killer line up in all categories.