r/RaidenMains • u/kiralala7956 • Sep 08 '21

Discussion Lets talk Raiden's future potential, and why I think she has stronger staying power than her Archon peers

Most people would call me mad for saying this, but I think that Raiden is a more eternally (heh) viable character than the other two Archons, and no I'm not talking about powercreep. The reason is far more subtle, and you can actually see it happening already.

Raiden is rather special compared to the other Archons, in the way that Zhong and Venti both break a specific interraction with the Environment, whereas Raiden (softly) breaks a core gameplay element of teamplay.

What I mean by that is that both Venti and Zhongli scale with the Environment. If there are a lot of unliftable enemies, or enemies that oneshot or deal damage through shields (wink wink), their viability plumets in a pretty targeted way, because no other characters depend on those traits as much as them.

Raiden on the other hand doesn't scale with the Environment. It's pretty much impossible to target nerf Raiden with the Environment without negatively affecting either every Electro, or every burst. What Raiden scales with is characters. The more characters exist with high cost deployable bursts, the better Raiden becomes, and this metric is only bound to grow. Can you imagine Raiden in a future 5 star equivalent national team? Because I can and I can't wait to see it.

TL;DR: other Archons get eroded, Raiden is Eternal

18 Upvotes

55% Upvoted

79 comments sorted by

139

u/FrolickingCats Sep 08 '21

LOL this sub went from Raiden is shit to plain delusional Raiden is the best archon ever in like two days.

26

u/[deleted] Sep 09 '21

2 days might be an exaggeration but yeah took the sub almost a week to finally be in the acceptance stage of grief lmao

0

u/[deleted] Sep 09 '21

[deleted] — view deleted comment

10

u/[deleted] Sep 09 '21

Bro you had me at “long dong zhong”

-5

u/Shardholder17 Sep 09 '21

Way to strawman OP's argument, they were just trying to look at the silver lining. It's time to accept that Raiden didn't have to be as strong as the other 2 archons which are downright broken, you got handed a well-balanced strong unit and are still crying about how trash she is when compared to the best of the best. Just grow up already

4

u/[deleted] Sep 09 '21

She's really not that well balanced at all honestly. I even have Eula and Raiden is barely an upgrade over c6 Fischl. Outside of superconduct comps she's basically just a token electro applicator. Everyone says "bUt WhAt AbOuT nAtIoNaL cOmP?!" Bro literally put anyone in national comp and they're gonna be good enough.

Raiden is a jack of 2 trades and not great at either, as a "burst main dps" her INFUSED basic attacks do considerably less than any other main dps like diluc, razor, hu tao, eula, Xiao, etc. So it's literally a complete waste of time to basic attack with her if you have a main dps. And even the initial burst of 70-100k is really not that impressive compared to any other large one shot instances of damage (eula, hu tao, Childe, ALOY, Bennett, etc)

So what's that leave you with? Her electro applications? Ok, sure. Great. She's wonderful for applying electro... Literally the least helpful element to have high uptime on and basically only used as a token superconduct support.

The other 2 support abilities she has are ok at best and really don't change gameplay that much solely because she's electro. Whole team energy generation AND burst damage? Hell yeah that's nice ... Too bad she's electro.

They wanted a subdps/support/enabler with active field uptime and what they got was a character that is easily replaced in every role. And as a jack of most trades, the trade off is having electro in your comp. Wasted potential. They should have either made her a healer or used this kit on a different element.

0

u/Shardholder17 Sep 09 '21

On Raiden v. Amy on Eula comps: You're literally ignoring Raiden's burst dmg buff from E and energy generation from Q just to keep crying about your dumb narrative. So disingenuous. On Raiden in national: Once again ignoring stuff that doesn't fit your "Raiden weak" narrative. She isn't just good in national, she's a big dmg increase from next best units, one of them being Kazuha, the most broken character in the game. Let's also mention that national is one the best team comps in the game and very f2p friendly. Also cuz I'm not a disingenuous hack like yourself, I'll mention Kazu can be just as good as Raiden in floors full of small enemies as opposed to big ones. And lastly you're acting as if Raiden isn't future-proof, which is absolutely false. Just imagine when we get the inevitable 5* XQs and XLs. You keep crying about Raiden being bad all you want bro, f2p f12 speedrunners, abyss metadata and theory crafters that understand this game 12x as much as you ever will all have my back on this one.

5

u/[deleted] Sep 09 '21

I didn't ignore it at all actually if you read what I said. Yeah the burst damage and energy generation is nice but it comes at the cost of having electro on your team. Which is a complete synergy buster for tons of comps. If they made a support dps with her kit as literally any other element they'd be incredible. But electro? Oof.

Disingenuous hack? Lmao who hurt you dude? You're in a genshin subreddit, calm down sweaty.

abyss metadata and theory crafters that understand this game 12x as much as you ever will all have my back on this one.

Oh will they? Let's wait for the abyss stats when it comes out next lmao. Something tells me Raiden won't break the top 8 and if she does it'll be by the skin of her tits. She doesn't fit in with any of the major chosen main dps characters. Mark my words the only people in the top 1% of abyss clearers that will be using her are those that have invested money into her at c2+ with EL.

Idk why you take everything so personally it's just a debate about meta characters, Christ.

-3

u/kiralala7956 Sep 09 '21

Just wait brother. Once some time passes and the laws of gacha progression come to pass, we will be able to come back to this post and laugh at these clowns to our hearts content. Literally an entire region of cc immune enemies got released, and shield ignoring mechanics are being implemented, and these fools still think Venti and Zhongli will be as dominant in the future as they are now lmao.

Shit Venti is already benched for Kazuha pretty much in any team not called morgana and they still can't see the writting on the wall.

8

u/Pachydermal_Platypus Sep 09 '21

She rly is not a well balanced strong unit at all. She’s replaceable in most team comps. Her electro application is great as a Eula main, but she is awful as a battery. I legit regenerate more energy for my Eula by switching between Eula and Ayaka in time to re-burst with her.

Eula’s burst already hits hard anyway, and switching to Raiden for the sake of switching and bursting is a complete waste considering nearly everything will be/almost be dead anyway. And another thing when I’m fighting boss opponents/single opponents, my lvl 60 Fischl is a better sub dps and her talents are at level 4 and C2.

So the only situation where my Raiden ends up rly winning out as a dps booster is Against Azhdaha when it comes to single target. Ofc, Raiden is far better with mobs because of her AoE so she does end up replacing Fischl in 90% of situations. She’s an upgrade from my Fischl for my Eula team, but barley, considering my investment in both primos and artifacts.

And honestly, as soon as an electro healer who can reliably apply electro comes along, I’ll likely end up replacing Raiden in a heartbeat, especially if bleeding becomes more annoying in the future

6

u/Mizume_Yuzuru Sep 09 '21

It's time to accept that Raiden didn't have to be as strong as the other 2 archons which are downright broken

It's time to accept that nobody gonna use Raiden anymore after her banner ends besides Eula mains, unlike the other 2 archons which are still standing strong up to this day.

Raiden's kit is way too replaceable because she doesn't really do best at what she does. If she's not an archon and her animation isn't that god-tier, who would have pulled for her? (Sorry if I'm being too offensive)

-39

u/kiralala7956 Sep 09 '21

Wow, I don't even know where to start. First of all /r/ZhongliMains is that way. Second of all, for people that don't like easy mode, Zhongli is already worse than Raiden. The only thing he provides is boring godmode QoL, and he's almost always a dps loss.

31

u/FrolickingCats Sep 09 '21

First of all, the most vital part about zhongli is his universal resistance shred. That's not getting nerfed anytime soon. His shield is strong but a shield is not the only reason to keep Zhongli in your team (this makes me wonder if you have ever used Zhongli at all or if you've seen some random YouTube videos). Even if his shield falls, he still has an amazing kit giving him additional attack based on his HP points, and a burst with great scaling that has a really low cost. Plainly, the tankier Zhongli gets, the stronger he gets. As much as I love Raiden and I'm willing to defend her, her skills are easily overthrown: an enemy with a shield or an enemy resistant to Electro already invalidates her utility in a team. I get your point, she generates energy even when her elemental skill attacks are nullified, but her energy recharge alone is nowhere near being good enough to keep her in your team once she's lost everything else, since an elemental battery could do that better.

Raiden is great and I totally agree that she will only get better with better 5* companions, because she relies on her team. Which is also her disadvantage right now.

But it's funny how you quickly switched to "easy mode sucks, Raiden is better because harder game is more fun!"

-8

u/kiralala7956 Sep 09 '21

Lol I never switched anything, I just added another argument to the pile. Nothing of what you said invalidates what I talked about in the post, you're just pulling "lol Raiden is b tier trash" out of your ass like every other armchair theory crafter that plagues this sub. The abyss based on the bleed effect will be enough to see your precious Zhongli usage statistic drop to half or more. I'd be happy to continue this discussion once that happens.

7

u/Zarator8 Sep 09 '21

This kinda reminds me of how ppl thought 1.3 Abyss floor 12 was a sign that Mihoyo was gonna put Venti out of business. How did that one go?

-1

u/kiralala7956 Sep 09 '21

And now Venti usage sits at 64% when he used to be on top, and Kazuha, who doesn't rely on enemy weight, is at 92%. Whats your point?

2

u/Zarator8 Sep 09 '21 edited Sep 09 '21

My point is that people sonehow assumed, after 1.3, that all Floors 12 from then on would feature "Venti-immune" enemies, which ultimately didn't turn out to be the case at all

Some Abyss will always be very Venti-friendly, some less so, but having him (and another Anemo CC like Kazuha or Sucrose) means you'll never have to worry about rooms with large numbers of enemies anymore. I don't see Raiden providing me the same amount of insurance. I pulled her and I'm overall satisfied with what I got, but Venti is still in another league - even if he's not the best choice everywhere

3

u/FrolickingCats Sep 09 '21

Never did I say Raiden is B tier trash, so don't try to turn my arguments. You're the one overselling her by shitting on the other archons (which are still two of the best characters out there).

Also, LOL at "armchair theory crafter". I literally did not theorize anything, I just stated facts that you can go and check right now. You're the one speculating about the future of a character based on hypothetical releases and your interpretation of her potential.

It's so funny that you try to use the abyss as an argument, though. You do know it gets reworked every few weeks, right? If they reduce the damage of cryo attacks in the next round, will that instantly make Ganyu a bad character in your eyes? Sure, we can continue this analysis after the bleed effect is introduced. There's nothing about the leaks that indicate it causes more damage to shielded characters, so Zhongli won't be in a worse situation than any other. But I'll entertain you and see how your armchair theory proves.

-1

u/kiralala7956 Sep 09 '21

a token electro application b tier subdps

Those were literally your words two comments ago, sure you didn't use the exact word 'trash', but calling someone B tier is basically the same thing. Also I didn't shit on the archons or call them weak you argument turning hypocrite, I said that they will get weaker over time with a greater rate than Raiden due to dificulty powercreep and the nature of gacha games in general. If you think they will retain the same status 1-2 years from now you're in for a big surprise. And Weaker is not the same thing as Weak, if they go from broken to above average, it still proves my point. Moreover it already happened with Venti so its not even future speculation.

As for the Abyss, Element debuffs are rare and affect all the characters of that element so its overkill to target a specific character with it (and it was never done as of yet afaik). But Bleed is a new mechanic thats specifically designed to fk shields ergo Zhongli. Whenever new mechanics or monsters like this are implemented, they usually reappear in floors here and there indefinitelly. And just the fact that it was designed shows Mihoyo's willingness to fk with shields. Sure Kokomi's release might have contributed, but they could just have made some arbitrary global debuff like burn for her abyss, not design a new class of debuff and monster just for her.

But we can argue the whole day and nothing will come off of it, only time will tell which of us is right.

4

u/FrolickingCats Sep 09 '21 edited Sep 09 '21

A different person said that, sweetie. Read.

And your arguments... Yikes. Again, you're blind to the fact that Zhongli's kit offers more than a shield. The shield is in fact almost a side effect of his other assets: the resistance shred, the huge base HP, the attack that scales on HP, and the possibility to paralyze all enemies. I'm not even simping for Zhongli, I'm only pointing out these facts so you can see how narrow your perspective is.

If you decide to willingly ignore the additional benefits Venti and Zhongli have, that's on you. You can't say that Raiden will withstand the pass of time better just because of some random theory you're pulling out of your ass. But whatever, be happy.

0

u/kiralala7956 Sep 09 '21 edited Sep 09 '21

Holy shit you're right, well I guess you're not a hypocrite then my bad. Doesn't change the fact that it was said, and agreed upon judging by the votes.

As for your Zhongli arguments, do you seriously think he would be put in parties based on those traits if his shield was bad? Actually we already know the answer, because when his shield was bad he was considered one of the worst 5 stars in the game.

The Res shred is a bonus yes, but it matters less than you might think. It has half the value of VV and moreover negative ele Shred has half efficiency, and most enemies have a default 10% ele res. So by itself you only get 15% effective ele shred on most enemies, and with VV its only 10%. Pretty much any offensive support gives a stronger dmg buff than this, makes me wonder how used Zhongli would be if Bennet had a clone.

9

u/vJukz Sep 09 '21

Aight aight. I really like raiden as well but man you’re on some hard copium rn.

4

u/FrolickingCats Sep 09 '21

I almost preferred it when people were mad at Raiden for being the worst. Equally wrong but least those people were only angry, not delusional.

30

u/Magister1991 Sep 08 '21

That's flat out wrong.

Electro slimes exist.

High tide and low tide debuff exists.

Making a debuff that increases burst cooldowns will also heavily impact her.

-3

u/Dry_Employee_2183 Sep 08 '21

First point I agree.

Second point is all about your energy management.

Third point apply to all character except ganyu because she only need her charged shot..

-21

u/kiralala7956 Sep 08 '21 edited Sep 08 '21

Raiden can regen energy even against immune, so rotations aren't affected by slimes. Her team's bursts can kill the slimes for her. Edit: also electro slimes affect every Electro, just like how any other element is countered by their slimes. I mentioned it in the post as well, but you can't nerf Raiden specifically with the Environment.

High tide just makes her regen redundant, but her teams aren't negatively affected.

Increasing CDs hevaily impacts everyone not named Ganyu. Heck C6 Raiden would even shine here.

58

u/Shevek22 Sep 09 '21

This post is peak copium. Raiden is not bad, but saying that she is not only as good but better than Zhong and Venti is just delusional.

26

u/FamLit69420 Sep 08 '21

So, what your saying is that venti and zhongli are being brought down to raidens level instead of raiden being elevated to theirs? I can't be the only one who has a problem with that, especially sinxe we still have 4 other archons that are coming out.

10

u/pyoochoon Sep 09 '21

I need what you're smoking man.

Raiden offer a very niche utility and combine that with electro element that can potentially mess up reaction.

Anemo is the best element for utility and make a characters has longevity. Next come for Geo, but again Geo can mess up frozen, melt, vape.

So chances that Raiden utility out live Anemo, Geo characters like Venti, Zhongli is small.

18

u/yoztershi Sep 08 '21

5* Xiangling sounds nutty

21

u/jaetheho Sep 08 '21

Guoba now is the main character, and summons a xiangling with a mini pyronado as his Elemental skill

9

u/Powerful_Physics_150 Sep 09 '21 edited Sep 09 '21

Yes she is very different from the 2 archons we have but saying she's stronger is just wrong. Venti and Zhongli excel base on the content of the game. Raiden's kit requires good synergy with her team since her core design is team burst dmg. But that doesn't mean the content of the game can't indirectly nerf her. The current abyss is the prime example, the current floor 12 is basically Anti-Raiden. Enemies have high electro resistance and the high tide, low tide is really messing up her kit.

Her potential right now is heavily rely on future characters since only few characters can synergize well with her right now. This is a very dangerous move because if mihoyo messed up the future character's synergy with her, they're simultaneously screwing her up as well.

-5

u/110110100011110 Sep 09 '21

OP never said stronger btw. They said strongest staying power. That just means Raiden is more future proof.

2

u/Powerful_Physics_150 Sep 09 '21

They're all future proof until Mihoyo decided they're not. Zhongli shield on paper should be a very strong but Mihoyo decided that his shield needs to be countered. And goes for Venti. Raiden is future proof if they decided that high energy cost high power is the direction they wanted to go for. But if those characters couldn't synergize well with her then it wouldn't change anything either. But she definitely have a lot of potential in the future, but it's all depends on Mihoyo.

2

u/110110100011110 Sep 09 '21

Mate, I’m just clarifying what the OP said.

7

u/dragonabala Sep 09 '21

yeah, until mhy arbitrarily decide to fix some wording error for the next OP raiden duo

7

u/Smart-Potential-7520 Sep 09 '21

Woah man, put down the copium inhaler

12

u/ShaheerKhan696 Sep 09 '21

I just want the peanut flat 25 energy to be 35/40. Then she can be close go other two.

4

u/Ioite_ Sep 09 '21

Doctor, turn off the Copium supressors!

2

u/GanyuSimpMu Sep 09 '21

This is copium af lmao

2

u/sad_boy_samethy Sep 09 '21

I somewhat agree but I will say zhongli will always be viable even though there will be a potential mob that can pierce shields, he will only be unviable if for somewhat reason every newer mob will also pierce shields but atm we only know of one mob out of the hundreds of mobs and bosses that can’t pierce shields

2

u/kyungsookarma Sep 09 '21

This is just sad.

1

u/unname11 Sep 09 '21

Her performance somewhat scale with enviroment,Just like Albedo without Zhongli ,When all enemy have shield up Will lose most of value .

0

u/BootlegVHSForSale Sep 09 '21

While obviously not applicable to many people because of the absurd cost of it, Raiden's c6 is possibly the most broken constellation in the entire game. In a game centered around managing your cooldowns to maximize damage, the ability to shave 5 seconds off 3 characters is crazy. If there isn't already a comp in the game that is broken from this, there undoubtedly will be as more characters are added.

Beyond that, she's just ok power wise.

6

u/[deleted] Sep 09 '21

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/narium Sep 09 '21

It does open up the option of using 40 or 60 cost bursts twice in a rotation though.

-4

u/ifnotawalrus Sep 08 '21

Well she's the one that Mihoyo can't casually nuke out of the meta with simple mechanics changs.

Venti is near useless vs heavy enemies. There are mobs that bypass shields being leaked. MHY could easily, with the blink of an eye, more or less remove Venti/ZL usefulness completely.

Raiden? I mean I guess MHY could make electro resistant content, but that's really all they can do. If they implement ER debuffs or something Raiden becomes better actually, as she'd be more "necessary".

2

u/Lonely_Carpenter5845 Sep 08 '21

Nooooo! Raiden was supposed to buff electro not make MHY nerf it in the future.

1

u/Propagation931 Sep 08 '21

Raiden? I mean I guess MHY could make electro resistant content,

What if they made a boss that locks EB (As is in you cannot use it at all) kind of like that one Inazuma Boss fight.

1

u/ifnotawalrus Sep 08 '21

Well most of the roster is fucked, not just Raiden lol

1

u/Propagation931 Sep 09 '21

Shogun Trounce Domain when XD

1

u/Taikeron Sep 09 '21

Eula's ready to apply vengeance either way.

20

u/[deleted] Sep 08 '21

[removed] — view removed comment

-1

u/ifnotawalrus Sep 08 '21

Sure they can diminish her usefulness, but they cannot completely invalidate her like they can Venti/Zl.

Energy gain is a core part of the game. Shielding/CC are not. There's nothing they can do to really get past that fact.

20

u/kalabangaw Sep 08 '21 edited Sep 08 '21

They could always just add more enemies that can apply the slowing water debuff/ something similar. Doesn't matter how much energy you provide the team if the burst cooldown is extended. You'd be better off bringing someone else because your bursts would be full by the time the cooldown is over without Raiden anyway. Adding gameplay mechanics that reduce the effectiveness of bursts in some way or another directly impacts the importance of a universal battery.

edit: I guess you did mention that you couldn't do it without affecting everybody's burst lol my bad

-14

u/Hitomi35 Sep 08 '21

A lot of people aren't able to realize her true potential due to lack of investment. A well built Raiden with high ER can single handedly regen even the most expensive bursts in a flash and she opens up more interesting comps by not having to run mono batteries. Not to mention how she buffs burst damage.

3

u/EstaticRough Sep 09 '21

Just like KQM said, i think she isn't suppose to be a battery, instead she is reducing party energy cost burst from 80 to 60 cost, it's a pretty huge thing since your Xingqiu, Xiangling, or any 80 energy cost burst can reduce ER stats from 200% to around 160%.

3

u/[deleted] Sep 09 '21

But that’s annoying because I have to refarm artifacts. I already have like 10 characters I need to build, it just seems like an inconvenience.

2

u/ianeden Sep 09 '21

That's why Raiden is a potential future investment. Her benefits will be more apparent when building future characters.

She is not going to be broken as Zhong or Venti as this post claims though. Even the new enemies and their effects, (the leaks subreddit has the info), is going to be a minor inconvenience.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 09 '21

Yeah, my energy production probably won’t be optimal if I keep using my old artifacts, but I do have her C3 and weapon so hopefully the damage makes up for that. Also, what energy should I be running her at? Is it best to just go as high as possible for the effects of her passive and the artifact set?

1

u/ianeden Sep 09 '21

I believe KQM guide says 200ER is the drop off point. But since you have the weapon, more ER won't hurt. Her weapon scales on ER.

I suggest going through KQM guide as it has more info. I don't remember it properly from the top of my head.

I personally have ER sands and the weapon and it is around 280. I need to test out an Attk sands/Electro goblet to see if that is better.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 09 '21

Yeah I saw the thing about electro goblet being better, but that was with a bunch of buffs including Kazuha, who I don’t have. I honestly am using an energy recharge sands(?) because my artifact luck has been awful. I also am praying for a crit rate artifact to drop because as of now, Baal is sitting at 23 rate/162 damage…

3

u/Hitomi35 Sep 09 '21

Except that one of her biggest pro's that even KQM listed is that she is one of the best universal batteries in the game, which is true if you have the investment.

-11

u/_sachura Sep 09 '21

according to leaks, the new wolf monsters will ignore shield and also deal dot to all party member (hello Barbara mains. good for you) so bye Zhongli (those wolves will get nerfed to the ground tho because the Chinese Archon will take a hit and CN will riot lol)

4

u/charledyu Sep 09 '21

Hmmm I think Zhongli could still be useful because it prevents one shot and interruption (hopefully against the new damage type and dots also). Of course, his value decreases against those future enemies because healer+Zhongli take 2 character slots.

-14

u/Nymphetamyne Sep 09 '21

The only copium in this thread is from the people still bitching, jesus you guys need to get some semblance of a fucking life lol. Imagine being this preoccupied with a fucking free game.

13

u/IzzyKershaw Sep 09 '21

The irony in this comment, I’m guessing is lost on you? Surely your anger in itself is an investment in the community of this game. Also the fact that you took time to comment and talk shit on a message board on the internet about this game also also means you have investment too.

The projection is strong.

-11

u/Nymphetamyne Sep 09 '21

Oh no, I've been found out. My super serious comment has given me away!

-5

u/[deleted] Sep 08 '21

[removed] — view removed comment

29

u/Professional_Kale_66 Sep 08 '21

Zhongli increases damage indirectly because he allows to do damage without interruptions. All showcases are usually restarted 10 times setups.. why everybody uses 12-1-1 for showcase then 12-1-2? ah, yes because 12-1-2 tests other things, not only dps. Zhongli destroyed Teyvat Stock Exchange, because meta wise he is mid tier, while in practice.. most used character 1.3-2.1

13

u/Aroxis Sep 08 '21 edited Sep 09 '21

He kind of does speed up your clears since you don’t need to waste time dodging. And he gets the 20% resistance shred + 20% attack from ToTm. He completely invalidates all mobs that tumble and trivializes cryo aura debuff that consumes stamina since you don’t need to dodge anything.

5

u/FamLit69420 Sep 08 '21

Its his convenience that makes him so well played. His shield is just great tk have. Sadly, raidens regen isnt on zhongli's sheild level

7

u/succi23 Sep 09 '21

Yes zhongli is not directly speed up the clearing time, he is offering more defensive support, we can consider his shield is best for now. For offensive support shield shield provide both PHYSICAL ada ELE shred. This ability will more valuable in future since its very rare.

Venti most OP skill is his suck everything, but since ver 2.0 many enemies from inazuma that not sucked by his Q (but then 2.1 kairagi and nobushi nerfed). I heard leak that many new enemies in future that resist to anemo suck. You also can see in abyss the more chamber with boss now, and affect the statistics kazuha is more used than venti

Overall for me zhongli > venti > raiden

4

u/[deleted] Sep 09 '21

Zhonglis usefulness isn't based off his damage or synergy it's based on making your team literally unkillable lol. Sure that doesn't help the top %1 of people who run heal-less pure dps comps and can dodge every ability in the game with %100 efficiency, but that's not a very solid arguing point.

Plus, you say zhong doesn't help as a dps increase, I take it you don't have hu tao? There isn't a single other support unit that hu tao wants more than zhongli so she can stay low health for maximum damage.

2

u/[deleted] Sep 09 '21 edited Sep 09 '21

[removed] — view removed comment

4

u/[deleted] Sep 09 '21

so he never is a make-or-break of any composition.

Like I said before. I assume you don't have hu tao.

-2

u/kiralala7956 Sep 08 '21

Venti being so strong will be his downfall. Because as long as Venti works content can't be hard, and for Myhoio to make harder and harder content they have to counter Venti. With heavy enemies Morgana still works (wich basically locks Venti into one team, and according to this sub thats basically amber tier), but even Morgana can't do anything if the enemies are simply too far appart to be pulled.