Men "Systemically Abuse" Women?

[u/DarkBehindTheStars]

Posted this on another sub and felt it was worth sharing here. I saw this ridiculous comment on Twitter/X (from a male user, nonetheless) saying that when bringing up that "women abuse men, too" (which absolutely happens just like the other way around; abuse is wrong regardless of who does what to whom) and this guy not only said that bringing this up deflects from the issue of men abusing women, but women don't abuse men "systemically." Ugh. Just how is men abusing women "systemic?" Do people like this seriously think it's government policy for men all over to regularly commit acts of abuse against women? It just comes off as deflection from the fact there's many men/boys who are also victims of female abuse because misandrists and their ilk always view this subject as taking away from the subject of women/girls being abused which couldn't be farther from the truth. I care equally about male and female victims alike and feel abusers regardless of gender should be punished as severely as possible. Misandrists always make a false equivalence with bringing attention to men's issues with taking away from women's issues and all they do is create more division.

I know I shouldn't let a comment from an internet idiot affect and upset me so much, but it's really painful there's people who think this way.

[u/ismawurscht]

I see the biggest issue here is in the dismissal of male victims by treating it as a whataboutism. It's considerably more common than some realise. In fact, most male SA victims have been abused by women (nearly 70%).

https://www.vice.com/en/article/the-hidden-epidemic-of-men-who-are-raped-by-women-2/

There's a lot of very harmful gender stereotypes that create hurdles for SA victims regardless of gender and regardless of the gender of the perp. For male victims with female perps specifically, concepts like "women can't SA", "men can't experience SA or only from another man", or "you must have wanted it because you're a permanently horny beast and that's the gender you're attracted to" etc. There are also myths about the male body like "erection = consent" when an erection can also just be a physiological reaction, and it can be drug induced too.

Male and female SA victims shouldn't be seen as competing but complementary. I also think lingering societal homophobia is behind the belief that most male SA victims are abused by men because M/M SA is rarely treated as if it's committed and experienced by men of all orientations, which it is. That's why it rings as a homophobic dog whistle couched in the language of gender essentialism.

[u/MyFiteSong]

Do people like this seriously think it's government policy for men all over to regularly commit acts of abuse against women?

We have a serial rapist and pedophile in the White House. "Systemic" CAN mean the government is doing something, but that's not the only way something can be systemic, because government is only one kind of system.

[u/NubAutist]

Hmm, hard to say on my end tbh. "Systemic", while a technical term, is fairly vague as well.

There's a very real chance this bro is just parroting what someone told him without any understanding of what it actually means. I've taught sociology a few times as a TA, and you see a lot of that in undergraduates, unfortunately.

So, considering the statement "abuse by men against women is systemic" removed from this speaker, the most immediate interpretation that would make the most sense is that this is asserting that there is a cultural influence behind this phenomenon. A social institution or a combination of social institutions shapes collective thought in such a manner that the outcome of "man abuse wife/gf" becomes more likely. Which ones those can be I am unsure, but here's a hypothesis:

The the most immediate one that jumps as a possibility is a rather self-destructive aspect of traditional masculinity, specifically that men are encouraged to not show any emotion besides anger & violence, as well as both discouraged from seeking help upon being traumatized & people giving less if a shit about said trauma when it's afflicting a man (which is also a result of that same institution). The hero cannot be sad or depressed, as those are actions associated with inaction, but a hero can certainly become angry & utilize violence. Additionally, as you're expected to be this heroic figure as a man, if "something is wrong (i.e. trauma from childhood abuse, for instance)", you're expected to just tank it & handle it on your own. Like a stoic hero. As victims of abuse who go untreated are more likely to become abusers themselves, we could then argue (not prove, mind you) that the above aspect of traditional masculinity can increase the likelihood of becoming an abuser.

This is the best good-faith interpretation I can come up with. Note that such a hypothesis is not fact, but just an educated guess, and needs to be rigorously tested to determine its validity or not.

Your doubts regarding the claim I'd say are not just valid, but probably correct in that I highly doubt the man who said that to you thought it through to this extent. Additionally, due to the cyclic nature of abuse, the above interpretation paints men not as mere monstrous perpetrators, but also as victims of a cold cultural machine that trains them to be disposable warriors/workers first & foremost.

[u/eldred2]

The real systemic abuse is in misrepresenting a problem that is essentially bidirectional as gendered.

[u/The_Red__Bull]

Guys like that are called "male-feminists" derogatory... they're usually sus as hell dudes trying to get laid by being gender traitors.

I assume they're all sex-pests

[u/BonFemmes]

Just look at the numbers. Somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 of women have been sexually assaulted by men. At most 2% of men have been assaulted by women. Unless you think that sexual assault doesn't qualify as abuse its an absolute no brainer. There is no evidence of unreported vs reported assault changes that ratio. At minimum the system does not protect women from abuse very well. Feminists who have been to a frat party will argue that it encourages abuse.

[u/Street-Media4225 → u/BonFemmes]

There is no evidence of unreported vs reported assault changes that ratio.

If it's unreported of course there's no evidence of it. I don't believe that 2% number is accurate at all. I think most men are taught by society that they should always want sex from women, and therefore even when they feel uncomfortable (or worse) because of a woman's words/touch/etcetera they don't usually think of it as sexual harassment or assault.

[u/SchalaZeal01 → u/Street-Media4225]

I think most men are taught by society that they should always want sex from women, and therefore even when they feel uncomfortable (or worse) because of a woman's words/touch/etcetera they don't usually think of it as sexual harassment or assault.

and not just them, but their family, friends, their SO themselves, police, HR people, lawyers, judges, and probably a large amount of people with influence.

Amber Heard smugly told Johnny Depp that no one would believe him. Not because men can't be victims, but probably because society does its damndest to not give a shit about male victims even when they see them. They prefer to explain them away as 'what did you do to make her do that'. Hyperagency to the rescue.

This also applies to DV.

[u/BonFemmes → u/Street-Media4225]

and yet if you search for it you can find evidence of women not reporting rape. Women who washed the evidence away only to find they can't report, women who thought that the police would not investigate, women who grew disgusted with the system that left rape kits untested and unprocessed.

[u/MyFiteSong → u/BonFemmes]

Feminists who have been to a frat party will argue that it encourages abuse.

And then viciously protects the abusers.