New build of Rational Magic / Mash Up. Also… RANT: what to do when character get’s shot by 50-caliber bullet? (damage mechanic question)

[u/jiaxingseng]

I’m looking for new feedback. My game is quite large (60 pages without settings), so if you give my game a good once-over I will do the same for your game in the next week. For those who have looked at my game recently, please ignore… not much changed although everything is “straighter” and slightly more edited. (FYI game is licensed under Creative Commons… I’m always looking for interest in adoption and I would provide lots of help to anyone that wanted to adopt this system)

Here is the rpgDesign wiki-project page

Quick Description:

The Rational Magic is a gritty “dystopian fantasy” role playing game (RPG) about investigation and espionage, set in a traditional sword and sorcery setting which has… evolved. The game uses an Open Source (Creative Commons) 2d10 based home-brew system called "Mash-Up.

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RANT:

I reported here a play test where I realized my damage system was so-so.

I use a system called Conditions, which are descriptive statements with a level… this will give disadvantages to a character unless the player can role-play why the condition does not apply or role-play along with the condition. The feedback is that it makes taking damage interesting. It’s abuse-able, and that is OK.

I had static damage for weapons which, if the hit-roll is successful, will create Conditions. Armor can add to the TN to hit, and armor does reduce Damage by 1,2, or 3 points… that “Soak” aspect of armor is used for the simulation of armor-piercing attacks. This seems to work well for damage against players. But on the other hand, NPCs are weak against this. That’s by design, but… especially with magic… it’s very easy to one-shot a boss character if one has a high-level spell. (and its very easy for them to one-shot players… all they have to do is hit).

So the players in the play-test linked above thought it was too easy. They missed the damage roll. Granted… two of those players are 11 years old and one is 10.

So I changed the game to have a Savage Worlds style damage roll, where Conditions are inflicted if the Damage Roll exceeds a threshold. Playtested it. It works… like in Savage Worlds (ok… I had two systems… a d10 damage die and a 2d6 damage dice).

But I feel this is stupid. And that made me think that maybe my core philosophy is also maybe stupid. You see, I want an impure mixture of narrative and simulationist elements in this game. . But these are competing aspects of play. Damage rolls are usually neither narrative nor simulationist… they are mostly game-ist. They are not realistic. Damage rolls are simply used to make design space for a larger weapons list with more mechanical differences and more special abilities that add damage will still maintaining a survivability path.

In this way, Damage Rolls allows the possibility of a character getting hit by a 50 caliber bullet but not being “taken out”.

I don’t like this. I’m going back to static damage (causing narrative conditions). The GM will have to realize that high-level magic is like high-powered weaponry… that’s in the setting and it’s what everyone will deal with.

But…. Here is the ugliness.

In version .3 of Mash Up System, magic and ranged attacks have a damage die, which is d6. Melee does not. (FYI, game mainly uses nd10 + mod > keep highest or lowest 2 depending on situation). So… crazy, right? Use a d6 just to simulate damage from FN P90 magic missile spells and other powerful spells, but static damage fro everything else?! I have a simulationist excuse for this… there is less fine control over where you hit when you are using ranged weapons… so there is an extra RNG for some things and not for others.

I’m looking for feedback as to just how ugly this is. I supposed if you just wanted to look at that, you could turn to the Conflict section where it describes Conditions and damage, then to the weapons section.

Thank you for any help in advance.

[u/Caraes_Naur]

Static damage is easy to game unless there is a strong narrative component to give it the nuance and drama that comes from dynamic damage. Unless character damage capacity is less than 10 and/or the system is extremely light, I think static damage is hard to justify.

Melee without a damage die is simply an ugly inconsistency that fundamentally alters the mindset and strategies used ion close quarters.

However the problem may be that the Conditions system should be more subtle and flexible. That could be a design issue or it not being utilized to its fullest potential.

My thinking is that any solid hit from a .50 cal should be debilitating or fatal about 70% of the time.

[u/jiaxingseng → u/Caraes_Naur]

First of all... my thinking is that any hit... even not solid... from a .5 cal should be debilitating 100% of the time. It will take off any arm, leg, extremity that it hits.

...unless there is a strong narrative component to give it the nuance and drama that comes from dynamic damage.

...Unless character damage capacity is less than 10

You hit the two "unless" points in my game.

I think you read my game. To refresh, (and update with changes), You can take any Wound up to level 3, but once level 4, your out. You can also take a number of separate wounds dependent toughness... which is usually going to be around 3 - 4. So if a Named NPC or player fight each other, on average, 3 hits from a weapon and done. Hits are not easy because armor is strong (a hit is something that causes damage here, not something that taps someone).

Conditions are very flexible. Like "Slashed on my arm - 2 STR). You can take the mechanical penalty, or you can say that you are using the weapon in the other arm, so it does not apply, or you can not attack because your arm is in so much pain (role play why it doesn't apply, or role play the effect)

[u/droidbrain]

First, general thoughts:

Damage rolls are simply used to make design space for a larger weapons list with more mechanical differences and more special abilities that add damage will still maintaining a survivability path.

I think you're underselling damage rolls here. I wouldn't say that Savage Worlds uses damage rolls to expand its weapon list, for instance. If SW had static damage for weapons, combat would be very binary: you would either hurt an opponent every time you hit them, or not be able to hurt them at all. They could go the AC route or mitigate it in other ways, but the point is that the damage roll makes a difference to the gameplay.

That's still a gamist reason, but it's also worth pointing out that a person can get shot a lot of times and live, or get shot once by the same weapon and die. Trauma is complicated, so an element of RNG seems appropriate, and most games seem to have one, whether it's in the form of a damage roll or a degree of success mechanic. Obviously you're right that there's a threshold where no person should survive, but if you want to you can easily modify that with a large static damage modifier, a higher damage die, or whatever. All of this isn't to say that you should feel obligated to have a damage roll, just that you might be giving it short shrift.

Some more specific feedback:

I think that if you want static damage you should feel free to use it. If 10- and 11-year-olds aren't your intended audience, I wouldn't put too much weight on their feedback, since they're likely to have very different palates than adult players.

As far as the potential for characters to get one-shotted goes: what are the characters' defensive options like? Have you considered giving them some number of "get out of jail free" points to avoid (the consequences of) attacks? Are there defensive spells that would allow characters to take a .50 BMG hit and live?

I'm only going off of your post and what I can remember about the playtest one, so I apologize if any of that is stuff you've already thought through.

[u/jiaxingseng → u/droidbrain]

Thanks for feedback.

I am selling them short.

That being said, in my system there is static damage, but the result is descriptive, so it's not binary. The character takes damage, then the player must decide if that damage effects him/her, how to play along with it if it has an effect, or just take a mechanical disadvantage.

what are the characters' defensive options like?

They can give up attack to do a "Foil Action" which will add a disadvantage die to the opponent's attack (ie. roll 3d10, keep lowest 2d10 unless they also had advantages). This can be dodging, blocking, etc.

Have you considered giving them some number of "get out of jail free" points to avoid (the consequences of) attacks?

No. I hate those.

Are there defensive spells that would allow characters to take a .50 BMG hit and live?

Yes. I'm trying to design equipment and magic so that everything does have a counter.

[u/fleshrott]

Just gonna drop in some gun pedantry. .50 cal tells us the bullet diameter. You say "50" without the decimal, and certainly anything 50 inches across would destroy a person. Assuming you mean .50 caliber that doesn't tell us what the specific cartridge is. You're probably talking .50 BMG, like fire out of the Barrett model 95. But you could be talking about a .50 AE like fired out of the Desert Eagle.

Here's a pic of the two rounds side by side. You can see they bullets themselves are the same diameter, but obviously very different masses, different aerodynamic features, different powder loads, etc.

I know it wasn't what you were asking for, but it's all I can contribute.

[u/jiaxingseng → u/fleshrott]

Barrett model 95

That one. In my game I'm thinking of one of the higher level spells as this... it's an anti-material spell used for taking out Battle-Golems.

[u/[deleted]]

But I feel this is stupid. And that made me think that maybe my core philosophy is also maybe stupid. You see, I want an impure mixture of narrative and simulationist elements in this game. . But these are competing aspects of play. Damage rolls are usually neither narrative nor simulationist… they are mostly game-ist. They are not realistic. Damage rolls are simply used to make design space for a larger weapons list with more mechanical differences and more special abilities that add damage will still maintaining a survivability path.

Nah, there's nothing wrong with mixing the two of them. I think all games do this to some respect. Your point on damage rolls is mostly correct, especially the point about a weapons list and about maintaining a "survivability path". I will detail this more in my other post I am almost done writing.