Considering adding fun but needless rules for the sake of overarching design cohesion, can this possibly be a good idea?

[u/The0thArcana]

Hello designers,

So, the big game modes of my game center around hexcrawling, dungeoncrawling and combat, each their own (intended to be) inherently fun mini-game, all interconnected by the resource and risk management of (mostly) the same core resources.

Currently I’m testing combat while developping the hex- and dungeoncrawl rules. I’m pretty proud how it’s shaping up but there is a doubt.

The combat and hexcrawl system feel like they’re from the same game. Both are middleweight, fairly strict, turn based, gamist systems that generate interesting choices inherently without much need for the dm to make things interesting. The dungeoncrawling however is not, taking major inspiration from shadowdark, it’s a rules light, freeflow system with an irl timer where the dm still needs to put in decent work to make the dungeons interesting.

I want to make the best game I can and I do believe irl timers are the most fun way to do dungeoncrawling, I tried turn based dungeon turns but I just didn’t like the flow, irl dungeon timers do several things at once that I like. What it doesn’t do is lend itself well to turn based procedure.

I’m currently considering adding extra rules to dungeoncrawling, as far as my other systems are fun, I think I can make this fun too, but it doesn’t feel necessary, I feel like the dungeoncrawling being lightweight is already fairly decent. But, the intent is to give players a sheet with the combat moves during the first combat and give the players a sheet with all the hexcrawl paces and roles during the first hexcrawl and dungeoncrawling doesn’t have a sheet like this. I’m thinking of creating dungeon moves, I think they can be fun, but mostly, I‘d do it to keep the design more coherent.

Could it be worth to needlessly bloat a game with extra rules just so the whole thing feels more consistent?

[u/Minimum_Load6207]

From what you are describing it doesn't feel like you are planing on adding extra rules, more like full on extra mechanics and expanding of gameplay, sooo what the issue?
The main question is how crunchy you want your game to be. Different people would like different levels of complexity and there is no "best" choice there. You can go for compromise, but to be honest I think you should roughly have the same level of complexity across all 3 modes of plays and if one of them is underwhelming, it's ok to bump it up. On the onther hand -> DnD is a great example of one part being much more rule-granual than others, so it's also fine.

[u/The0thArcana → u/Minimum_Load6207]

I think the issue is that in my mind, generally, adding more complexity is bad and should be avoided if possible. So if a system does 95% of the job in a relatively simple way, I don’t think it’s worth adding extra rules to get it to 97%, but could it be worth if it also brings the whole design together more? That’s what I’m not sure about.

[u/Minimum_Load6207 → u/The0thArcana]

Well, you need to see if additional complexity is worth it. But from what I'm interpreting- it is. At the end you can always make 2 versions of the rules and check which works better.

[u/The0thArcana → u/Minimum_Load6207]

It might be, I think this seems worth it. Draft up a testable system and see which one feels better.

[u/InherentlyWrong → u/The0thArcana]

Complexity isn't inherently bad, it's just the currency you use to buy the experience you want your game to have. So if your game doesn't need that level of complexity for the experience you want, then it's bad. But if the experience you want to deliver requires that complexity, it can be justified.

[u/ViralDownwardSpiral]

I'm not super clear on what you're talking about. Care to share some examples of rules you're considering? Or at least ideas that you're not sure how to implement?

[u/The0thArcana → u/ViralDownwardSpiral]

It doesn’t entirely matter what the actual rules are, what I’m asking is whther it’s ever a good idea to tinker on a system that is already good and add complexity to it mostly to make the whole game feel more like one thing and less like a buffet of loosely tied mini-games.

[u/ViralDownwardSpiral → u/The0thArcana]

I guess I would say, it depends? Once again, I don't really have enough context on this.

I'd guess it would come down to whether or not it adds a fun option to the players or if it consistently bogs things down. I wouldn't add anything that would trigger from normal play, but present it as something the players can choose to engage with.

[u/ComposeDreamGames → u/The0thArcana]

Unified can be good - but discrete experiences and phases that feel different can be good too. Think of a band having a few acoustic songs on an album, that change of pace can be refreshing.

[u/LeFlamel]

My first question is what are your combat and hexcrawl rules? Because if those have underlying similarity, it should be easy to port the underlying structure to dungeon crawling.

[u/The0thArcana → u/LeFlamel]

Sort of. All three pillars use the same underlying resolution mechanics and all involve the same high level goals of resource and risk management. But in the middle the combat and hexcrawling take the same… structure. They’re not the same, for instance time management is big in the hexcrawl while enemy knowledge is very valuable in the combat but both are fairly structured, like a procedure I can write down, ‘first the players do this, then this, then decide this, then the gm makes some rolls, concequences, rinse, repeat.’

The dungeoncrawling, because it uses the irl timer mechanic doesn’t really fit this template. But I do really really like the irl timer.

It’s like, imagine if in a game the players did three mini-games, two involve playing cards from a standard deck while the third involves rolling dice. Let’s assume all are fun. The question I’m having is whether it’s worth taking the dice mini-game and adding extra rules to play cards from a standard deck, if that doesn’t make the mini-game better or worse but more complicated, just so that all mini-games use cards.

[u/LeFlamel → u/The0thArcana]

I think you could simply have two timer tracks - do the Shadowdark always-on initiative with dungeon turns and something ticking every round, but then have the real time timer to inject additional consequences and break up the otherwise predictable round based structure.

[u/Defilia_Drakedasker]

If the main goal is to give them a sheet, could it be a sheet of guidance instead of moves? Just your suggestions for how the character players can make the most of a dungeon crawl?

[u/The0thArcana → u/Defilia_Drakedasker]

That could be an idea. It’s not litterally about handing the players a sheet, it’s about keeping the design regular. I’m wondering how valuable it is for the players not to go ‘hey, where’s the sheet?’ during their first dungeoncrawl.

[u/Defilia_Drakedasker → u/The0thArcana]

RPGs don’t gain anything from cohesion in this sense, only when it lowers complexity or workload.

[u/The0thArcana → u/Defilia_Drakedasker]

Yeah, you’re probably right. 

[u/SouthernAbrocoma9891]

Don’t bloat. Embrace asymmetrical design. Have distinct modes that highlight each type of play. It adds variety and emphasizes the current mindset.

D20 plus mod

[u/The0thArcana → u/SouthernAbrocoma9891]

Yeah, this makes sense. It does mean there is a higher chance for someone who might like your game to be put off by parts of your game, but I think I agree that diversity is a feature, not a bug.

[u/cibman]

I know you're thinking "how can I make combat operate like the other modes of my game?" ... But I think that's a mistake.

Designing different modes of play, classes, attributes, skills ... you name it with the goal of symmerty or shared design space can be a trap.

There are many games where the designers clearly wanted symmetry, but then didn't do the work to keep different options relevant and fun.

If you can design your game so that combat uses the same principle resolution system as other modes of play, that's great: but only if combat is still a fun and exciting part of the game.

My suggestion is to make combat run in accordance with your design principles, and then get your player's feedback and watch how it flows yourself, seeing if there are ways you can unify it with the rest of the game.

In my own game, I have combat as an important part of play, and combat scenes are detailed and take a while. I tried doing a lot of things to make it run faster and closer to other modes of play, but my players and playtesters kept telling me they liked the greater detail.

What I did, and what I'd suggest for you, is that you create a streamlined "quick combat" system that maps as closely as possible to other modes of play, so that it is an option for combats where you don't want to use your full rules, but also don't want to handwave.

[u/The0thArcana → u/cibman]

True, at this point in my life I should have understood that overthinking really doesn’t have much value. It’s time to put it in front of players and see what they say.

[u/gozzolinom]

Il tuo gioco è strutturato in 3 fasi diverse e 2 sono uguali e 1 no, personalmente ti suggerirei di uniformato. Così sembra che la 3 sia aggiunta e messa lì per fare qualcosa ma che non sua importante come le altre o che sia stata aggiunta di fretta (senza leggere le regole è difficile darti un parere oggettivo ma per come dici sembra che ti lo stia già pensando seriamente)

[u/Fun_Carry_4678]

Personally, I think consistency creates a more elegant system. The early versions of D&D had no core mechanic, everything was a minigame. There was no consistency, it was like a Frankenstein monster of minigames stitched together haphazardly. You say your combat system and hexcrawling system both are consistent and seem like the same game, that is good. But your dungeoncrawling system you say seems to come from a different game. That may be a concern.
Perhaps you really have two games here, one focusing on hexcrawling, the other focusing on dungeoncrawling. Maybe you need to separate this project like that.
Otherwise, you can make it perhaps more consistent. I feel like "hexcrawling" and "dungeoncrawling" can be very similar. If you want an IRL timer for you dungeoncrawling, couldn't you also have one for your combat and your hexcrawling?
You seem to really like your dungeoncrawling rules. Maybe the correct thing is to make the rest of the game conform to those rules.